urbantinker8 said:In my view, at that age, "torture" is basically anything they aren't required to know and have zero interest in learning anyway. On one hand, I read these threads where parents seem totally stressed out because their first graders have to learn how to write numbers up to ten in Spanish, but then on the other hand, I honestly don't think there's any harm in teaching them the basics of Excel.😕
It’s all pretty logical, I guess...🤔
Well, let's look at it this way—suppose the state and I don't see eye-to-eye on exactly when a child should start learning certain skills. I certainly wouldn't call it "torture" if a child learns something that isn't strictly part of the official curriculum. Is sending kids to a specialized music preschool, an English immersion program, or swimming lessons considered "torture" too?
And as for some parents being annoyed that their kids are learning to write numbers up to ten in Spanish, I'm not sure how that connects to my actual point. For instance, I mentioned earlier in this thread that I find it perfectly fine if my child has a dozen English words written in their workbook, though I do think playing "preschool-style" English during school hours feels a bit misplaced. So, I'm curious—where is your argument in all of this, and what kind of logic are you using to get there? 🤷
Or perhaps you're assuming that every single parent has to share the exact same opinion? If that's the case, then using the views of a few to act surprised by the views of others doesn't really hold much water.
What exactly would you want a first grader to do? Teach her how to code?😁
I think you should just let the kid enjoy whatever catches her interest; I mean, she has plenty of time to deal with Excel spreadsheets later in life, for heaven's sake. Don't try to force it on her, especially during the holidays, because you'll probably just end up backfiring if it isn't already the most thrilling thing in the world to her.
Personally, I’d always try searching for information about things she's actually curious about, rather than making her build tables or databases, no matter how much you might tailor them to her age.
Whenever my son asks me something, and I think it would be helpful to look it up online together, we just sit down and search for it. That's how we got through his phases with Ancient Egypt and the pyramids, then maps, continents, countries, flags, outer space... everything. I never really try to push anything on him that he isn't interested in or that isn't absolutely necessary for him to know right that second.
Now, I certainly don't intend to make things difficult for my child. To say that Excel is "torture" is really just your own perception of it. My goal is simply to find something that sparks her interest, and if that happens to be Excel or some math puzzles (thanks to Majamaj), then I'll certainly try that approach. If it doesn't click, we'll move on to something else.
As I mentioned before, my focus is entirely on finding something fun. I'm not quite sure where the "torture" part comes into this...
I have to admit, I’m feeling a little bit bummed out that she isn't showing much interest in her laptop. It’s sitting there ready whenever she wants to use it, but lately, it’s mostly just been used for listening to her music CDs—both American and English hits—and occasionally working through some school subjects on a dedicated CD, though that usually only happens when we give her a little nudge rather than her doing it on her own.
I really need to come up with something fun to do over the holidays to get her actually using the computer for something more productive. She’s played a few games, but nothing has really stuck; she was mostly just obsessed with those Talking Tom and Angela apps. 🙄 She thought Microsoft Word was the coolest thing ever when she first learned how to type capital letters, but that novelty has worn off now. Same goes for MS Paint. She does seem to enjoy math, so maybe I should try introducing her to Excel? I actually considered picking up a sixth-grade computer science textbook, but once I read the curriculum and saw they refer to memory as "storage," I decided against it.
Honestly, kids these days have such a natural knack for gaming; they’re total little addicts! They’re definitely their parents' children—she can master any kind of GUI or input device, whether it's a mouse, a touchpad, the screen itself, or a controller, in a heartbeat. And don't even get me started on how quickly they learn commands like play, resume, continue, or cancel. 😍
analogseal18 said:As a "staunch atheist," I find myself in complete agreement with the sentiments expressed by plus.nešto. Through this contract, the church has secured exactly what it set out to achieve—something I would never personally grant them—but let’s be clear: this does not imply any sort of obligation toward the children. Students who choose not to participate in religious studies, and the resulting gaps in their daily schedules, should be treated as an administrative issue for the school to solve. Should the school not be capable of designing a schedule that ensures these students aren't left idling during those periods? If such a feat is truly impossible, then surely they could provide an alternative activity or even just an empty classroom where they might focus on their homework while their peers attend religious instruction.
My seventh grader is experiencing one of these scheduling gaps for the very first time because of these religious classes. Most of the time, she simply uses that period to get ahead on her homework, though occasionally she joins a geography study group. While I would certainly prefer a schedule free of these interruptions, one must accept the reality of the situation; at least the teachers aren't being paid for doing absolutely nothing.
Look, we can agree on one thing: a gap in the schedule is an operational headache for the school or the state, not the church—because, technically, that's where the responsibility lies. But my second point is that it's wrong to claim they aren't morally responsible for leaving our kids in a vacuum. By the very terms of the agreement, they’ve left them essentially unsupervised by everyone involved. In my view, they are morally responsible just as much as the government is. And since both sides love to beat their chests about how much they care for everyone—especially the kids—I find them to be hypocrites .
So, your child having a gap in their schedule for the first time this year? Well, that's fine. My kid has had four gaps since the very first year (technically three, but since they go to after-school care, it effectively counts as four). Right now, they spend that time sometimes in the library, sometimes in a teacher's office, and sometimes... honestly, I'm not even sure where. I'm not comfortable with my kid just loitering in the hallways, though I suppose it's a lesser evil than being forced into a religious class.
And frankly, the fact that things are being pushed on us through our children against our will is what really gets under my skin. If they would just stay out of my business and my kids' lives (see my previous post regarding blessings at school) and organize their activities so they aren't detrimental to us, I’d be much more tolerant. I genuinely couldn't care less who believes what; I have zero desire to debate people in real life or try to convert anyone. In return, I expect the same level of non-interference for my family. But unfortunately, that hasn't happened. That’s why I get frustrated, that's why I'm annoyed, and that's why I feel justified in being bitter. It feels like there is simply no respect shown for our views and our convictions.
It’s like two people shaking hands on a deal that screws over a third party, yet that third person isn't supposed to blame both of them—just one. Give me a break. Personally? I’m blaming both of them, no hesitation whatsoever. Like I’ve mentioned before, The Government is basically a xenophobic swamp; they sign off on this kind of garbage, and the other side involved is just as repulsive.
The real issue affects anyone who, for instance, finds out their child is sitting through a religion class despite not being enrolled in it. Take my first period, for example. To me, any attempt at brainwashing my kid against my wishes is an absolute incident. Trying to perform a blessing without my consent? That’s also an incident—it’s an act of violence against my child and our free will. And so on. This is exactly what I’m fighting against, and why I keep writing about it here in this specific thread. I won't stop until this is resolved in a way that actually makes sense to me. Whether that happens tomorrow, next month, or three years from now doesn't matter. I'll stick with it as long as it takes. And honestly, I'm seeing more and more of us who simply refuse to tolerate this nonsense. 🙂
Alexander Ortiz3 said:It’s honestly quite funny how the people who never step foot in a church—and don't even bother enrolling their kids in religious education—seem to be the loudest voices complaining about it online. 😕 Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it’s a bit strange to see such intense interest in something they’ve explicitly chosen to opt out of. Still, to each their own; we live in a free country after all. 🙂 Regarding the concerns about supervision during those free periods, neither the Church nor the families enrolled in religious classes have any control over that. If you have complaints about supervision, the Church isn't the authority to contact. I’d suggest looking at this link if you want the full picture, specifically sections 1.1, 1.4, and 13. You'll find answers to most questions there regarding those attending religious studies. As for the supervision issue during free hours, like I said, please direct those inquiries to the school district instead. 😉
Is there actually any proof for that...?
PS, I’m getting some serious "mathematical epiphany" vibes here—kind of like those wild theories you hear on late-night cable news.🍿 Or is it just a tall tale?
Alexander Ortiz3 said:Reverse scheduling wouldn't work for those attending religion classes. Why would they want to make an extra trip from home to the school when the alternative is for the kids who *don't* attend religion class to spend their free hour inside the building? So, it's a completely selfish opinion that only looks out for their own interests without caring if it makes life harder for everyone else.
LOL, oh, I'm the selfish one because I find it unacceptable that my child is officially—and very soon, practically—being ignored by everyone, essentially wasting time at school. But no, it isn't selfish for the people who designed this system to carry it out, right?
If nothing else, I'm glad these debates always end up exposing the hypocrisy. Apparently, the "poor little feet" of children who would need to switch shifts are somehow more important than my children's rights. It’s equality, American style! You really have to be born and raised here, living this specific "American Dream," to truly grasp the depths of the twisted logic used in our little corner of the world just to flatter a hypocritical, narrow-minded, and xenophobic society. 🙂
Anyway, like I mentioned before, the moment a situation arises where kids are left unsupervised, things will escalate. Then we’ll see if religious education really can't be scheduled as either the first or last period of the day. ☕
What library are we even talking about!? The one that’s only open half the time because the librarian is constantly off somewhere? Every time you actually need the facility for a mentorship program, she’s away at some seminar or whatnot. In just two months, my kid managed to try visiting that library exactly three times. The solution is right in front of us, and honestly, people have suggested it a thousand times already: REVERSE SHIFT SCHEDULES
It’s actually quite telling how much some people fight against this idea—the idea that kids should be able to walk over to school (even if they aren't staying for after-school care) to access something so vital to their education. Personally, I don't mind driving my child four times a week to sports practice, even though I wouldn't call athletics "essential for saving one's soul from eternal damnation," which is how certain religious education classes seem to frame things for believers. If they truly believed in that, they'd be rushing to those classes regardless of where they were held.
Look, from a practical standpoint, it doesn't affect me directly, other than the fact that my child isn't heading to the library right now instead of sitting in some office, and the third graders aren't getting to go and have a blast. But in two or three years, when more than half of them stop going and there's no organized after-school supervision available—well, then the school is going to face a "tiny" little problem with crowds of unsupervised kids hanging around the entrance. And I’m thinking about that first incident that triggers a visit from the local inspectors; let's see whose rights carry more weight: the churches fighting for preferential placement of religious studies in the middle of the school day, or our children's right to safety within the mandatory school system.
And there it is, the classic "majority rules" argument. But what actually happens when more than half the kids in a class decide they aren't taking religion class? Absolutely nothing. You just end up with a small minority sitting there in a classroom while the rest of the class is essentially running wild in the halls. The real issue isn't about numbers; it’s about how unnatural it feels to have this one elective squeezed right into the middle of a standard schedule of mandatory subjects. It doesn't fit the flow like everything else does. Honestly, if I had the choice, I wouldn't even pick ethics. Who actually wants to pile extra work onto their kid? I’d much rather see a schedule without these awkward gaps where nobody is responsible for supervision. Let them pick those kinds of electives once they get to middle school or high school.
It’s actually quite straightforward when you break it down. There is the core curriculum that everyone is required to take, and then there is the elective portion—the stuff parents choose to enroll their kids in. Generally, these electives happen during the second shift or after regular hours to ensure students don't have awkward gaps in their schedules and to make sure teachers aren't wasting time teaching just one or two kids from a class. Since our schools haven't really set up any meaningful alternative programming for kids who aren't part of these electives, it only makes sense that all elective classes follow the same format. This is especially true in an era where kids should have actual options, like staying in an after-school program or just heading home. And honestly, that is the heart of the issue and where the solution lies. You seem to be ignoring my point entirely, instead focusing on religious studies from other denominations—which, by the way, also take place outside of regular school hours—or talking about introducing yet another subject. Personally, I don't see the need for more subjects; our kids are already completely overwhelmed by their current academic workload.
I don't even want to get into discussions about "diversity" or other empty buzzwords. My concern is much more practical: it's about the basic safety of my 6.5-year-old. During those two 45-minute blocks every week, they aren't officially under anyone's supervision, even though both my spouse and I pay the taxes that fund this entire education system. On top of that, we pay extra for after-school care just so someone can watch them while we're at work—all in a country with laws stating children shouldn't be left unsupervised until they're eight! But hey, I’d still rather deal with that than some attempt at RKT brainwashing.
The library isn't actually open 24/7; there's just one librarian working shifts. That’s the first of many falsehoods. Honestly, I don't even have the heart to keep commenting on this...
I should probably just clarify that I don't really subscribe to Christian values, nor am I particularly attached to them 😁 so I don't typically lean on them as my moral compass.
Honestly, whenever I read posts where people are practically overflowing with all that Christian mercy, tolerance, and "love thy neighbor" sentimentality—it really makes me feel like I made the right choice by stepping away. 🎉
Lawrence Torres56 said:So, get this—apparently, showing up to Mass actually counts toward your grade in church religious ed classes, but it doesn't mean a lick to the school system? Like, seriously? Even though they’re both technically "religious education," there's absolutely zero overlap between the two... it’s like they’re living in two different universes or something. Why does one care about your attendance while the other just couldn't care less? Quincy:
😲
I mean, honestly, can we even put school and religion in the same category? It’s like comparing apples to oranges, right? You’ve got your standard academic curriculum—math, science, history—which is all about facts and logic, and then you have religious studies, which is an entirely different beast altogether. They operate on completely different wavelengths, so trying to weigh one against the other just feels totally off base. Why would anyone even try to make that comparison? School is mandatory, period. It’s that one universal equalizer where it honestly doesn't matter if you're a devout Muslim, a hardcore atheist, a lifelong Christian, or just someone who couldn't care less about religion if your life depended on it. It's just the baseline for everyone, right? That’s also the spot where you pick up all those actual scientific facts, you know?
Oh, give me a break! Seriously?😁Look, religion class is just another credit on the transcript, plain and simple. You want to talk about whether it’s "equal" to something like math? Just try telling your kid they don't have to show up to religion class and see if the school lets them slide with an unexcused absence. It’s a requirement, isn't it? And if that kid finishes the year without passing, well, that’s a failing grade on their record just like any other subject. So, does it really matter how you categorize it when the consequences for skipping or failing are exactly the same as anything else on the schedule?😁
Quincy:
Religious studies classes are basically just a playground for teaching baseless theories and drilling kids on the idea that they need to go out there and "spread the faith," which is really just a polite way of saying they should be badgering people into converting.
Honestly, if you think about it, theology is kind of just like history, isn't it? It’s basically this massive collection of narratives that might be absolute truths, or they might just be nothing more than unproven assumptions floating around in the ether... who's really to say? And honestly, if there’s any kind of twist or distortion happening at all, isn't it just baked into the very nature of every single thing we look at? It’s like, you can try to find something pure, but if a little bit of warping exists, doesn't it just seep into everything else too?
Quincy:
I mean, isn't it about time we started asking if a person actually has the right to just stand up and say, "Look, this whole thing isn't mandatory, so I'm officially opting out"? Is it really that much to ask? 😕
Look, nobody's disputing that you have every right to speak your mind—no one’s even going there. I was just trying to get at the bigger picture here... what kind of message are we actually sending to our kids by doing this? And honestly, what happens when tomorrow that same kid walks up to us and says, "Yeah, actually, I'm done. I don't want to go to school anymore"? What then?
What kind of "distortions" are we even talking about in other disciplines? I mean, once you accept Heisenberg's uncertainty principle in physics or move into non-Euclidean geometry in math, things get complicated too, right? 🤦 Most academic subjects are—believe it or not—grounded in hard facts, rigorous science, and empirical research. Religion just doesn't operate on those same foundations. The end.
Personally, I don't see any cultural value—or even any practical benefit—in forcing my child to go through things like confession or formal prayer rituals. From a content perspective, they’ll get plenty of exposure to Christian myths and legends through appropriate books. My goal is to present those stories within the broader context of all different religions, rather than framing them as absolute, unquestionable truths where you face eternal damnation if you don't believe. Even if we "package" everything through themes of love, compassion, and family values, it stays much more grounded.
That said, you really need to reach a certain level of intellectual maturity to be able to "read between the lines." Based on what I've seen with some of my acquaintances, some kids pick up on that nuance almost immediately, while others take a bit longer to get there. Honestly, I just don't want to deal with a daily tug-of-war at home over why we aren't strictly following whatever they're being taught in school. It's also tough because I don't want to sit there with a straight face listening to what I consider complete nonsense, yet I know I shouldn't mock the teachers or the curriculum in front of my kid. If you ever find yourself caught in that kind of schizophrenic loop, it's quite a predicament.
pas-garo, can you tell me which school that was, somewhere here in Chicago maybe? I’ve been noticing a real shift in the wind lately—at least here in the city, though official statistics might not have caught up yet. In my department, out of our group, two of us didn't sign our kids up for religious education classes, while three did. It’s starting to feel like more than just a few "isolated" cases. Honestly, we were almost at a 3:2 split; I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers flip entirely in a year or two. Even in one girl's class, a third of the kids aren't attending, and we're talking about first graders! That's when the fear of social isolation or kids just wandering the halls is at its peak. If you look back five or six years at this same school, there would have been maybe one child—if anyone at all—skipping those classes. It seems like non-believers in this messy state of ours, where there's zero tolerance for diversity, have finally found the courage to openly express their views. And the fact that they're being pressured through their children... well, I think that's just further proof of how undemocratic, intolerant, and—above all else—insensitive our government is toward the youngest among us.
Look, if the whole point is supposed to be some sort of religious "blessing," then there really isn't anything else for the kids to be doing during that time. If they try to mix things up—say, by bundling a blessing for all the students into the end-of-year school assembly—then I’d definitely put that in the "absolutely unacceptable" category. Blessings should be kept entirely separate from general school celebrations and ceremonies. But honestly, the bare minimum requirement should be getting ADVANCE NOTICE that something like this is even happening. That’s just basic civility, yet from what I hear, many schools still haven't quite mastered that level of communication...
Ultimately, I feel like this whole religious situation in our public schools is an opportunity to finally sit down with my child and clarify our family's stance once and for all. It's about ensuring she knows exactly how to navigate these unwelcome situations moving forward. We need to explain that if everyone else is making the sign of the cross, she doesn't have to join in. If everyone starts praying out loud, she isn't obligated to pray along. And if a priest starts sprinkling holy water around, she should just step aside. Essentially, I want her to be able to clearly and unapologetically demonstrate our beliefs without a shred of shame. In fact, she should own it. 🙂
If you ask me, the bare minimum should be hiring at least one more librarian for our schools. That way, the library could actually stay open consistently throughout both the morning and afternoon sessions. It would provide a reliable space where students who aren't participating in religious studies can head over to during those periods—which, unfortunately, isn't really an option right now. Of course, we’d also need to invest in some decent desks, chairs, computers, and other essentials to make sure the library is a comfortable and productive place for them to hang out while their peers are in class. Regarding religious services within the school system—again, my baseline requirement is simple transparency. Everyone needs clear, advance communication about the schedule. Participation should be entirely voluntary for the students, and for the younger kids, there absolutely must be written parental consent. Plus, we have to ensure they have a safe, supervised alternative location to go to (I’m back to suggesting the library again!).
Personally, I don't mind the idea of them spending time in the library. In fact, I'd love nothing more than to see our kids develop a genuine passion for books and reading. To me, that is a much better outcome than whatever other alternatives might be offered.😁
brighteagle86 said:In high schools, they have alternative electives like Ethics. Often, the kids taking Ethics end up with an 8th period—basically the afternoon shift—while the ones in Religion class are just wandering the hallways. How interesting.
Well, that's what happens when their leaders fail to secure a Concordat with Francis. It leaves them acting like a lower caste in our quasi-secular little nation... 😁
Susan James said:It’s not just about the school setting priorities, though I definitely see your point. The foreign language situation is also a factor, since not every school offers just English in the first grade. Then you have the issue of friends from preschool staying together in full groups, plus picking out a specific teacher, and deciding whether or not they'll join after-school programs.
Technically, they could arrange it so religion classes happen on Monday and Wednesday during the first period for Classes A and B, and then on Tuesday and Thursday for Classes C and D. They absolutely have the power to do that. They just choose not to.
I'm just sharing my thoughts based on what I've observed—and obviously, this is specific to our particular school. I'm not claiming this is the case everywhere in the country. But even when a better way is possible, there just doesn't seem to be any will to change. It feels like the priorities are simply elsewhere...
Honestly, if our schools just grouped everyone who isn't taking religious studies into one single block, they wouldn't have to stress about scheduling those first or last periods at all. It would make life so much easier for the students if the subject wasn't even part of the main timetable. Of course, the trade-off is that teachers would end up with two fewer hours of instruction per week.
It’s pretty obvious where the school decided to put its priorities...