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Posts by Michael Ramirez11

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California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Kyle Nelson2 said:No, referendums aren't non-binding...
Dammit, do you people even read actual legal documents, or are you just recycling everything Index reports?

According to the Statute of California, passing a law like that requires a supermajority in the legislature—specifically, two-thirds of the representatives have to vote for it. They passed it with a simple majority, which means they straight-up violated the Statute of California.
Second, that "law" doesn't even define a minimum turnout required for the referendum to be valid, which makes the whole thing illegitimate.
But hey, maybe this is all getting a bit too complicated for you guys.

Well, finally, after a thousand posts, someone actually provides some concrete information! Thank you. (That’s basically the only reason I still follow this thread.)
Is that really how it works? Wow, that is truly mind-blowing.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Richard Wilson4 said:Take Austria and Mexico as interesting examples.

Austria wasn't much different from Bavaria or Saxony until 1918; it was basically just their conflict with Prussia that kept them out of a unified Germany. It wasn't until after World War II that they fully solidified as a distinct nation, though even today, polls show about 10-20% still identify as German.

Then you’ve got Mexico. Back in the 19th century, they mostly took pride in being Mexican, but eventually, a separate national identity formed among the thin majority of Orthodox Christians in that country.

I suppose that’s just the Mexican approach—whether it's hegemony through the Mexican Orthodox Church or just plain old propaganda and stealing someone else's history. Personally, I don't think we should fall for it. But then again, Mexico isn't really the point here, so I won't linger on it too much.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Rachel Richardson said:Catalans make up 16%, while Castilians account for about 70%.
If they had simply been on opposing sides, that war wouldn't have lasted nearly as long...

A Western government cannot simply starve its own citizens.
That sounds more like a scenario that might play out in Kurdistan, though even there, the outcome is far from certain.

No. I firmly believe that anyone who violates American laws—and maintaining the integrity of the state is paramount—should be barred from holding public office.
So, if some politician decides to pull a stunt like that—essentially a "passport joke" involving a hefty fine and a multi-year ban from ever running for office again—that's how it goes.

I am not in favor of killing anyone—least of all political opponents.
Democracy is built on the principle that everyone has the right to their own opinion—isn't that the core of it?
That being said—I'm certainly not an advocate for lawlessness.
If someone believes the U.S. border should be drawn at one specific point versus another—well, that’s their prerogative. No one has the right to stand in their way or tell them how to think.
If someone takes a public platform and uses it to actively undermine the interests of the United States—essentially working against the nation’s welfare—they aren't just being controversial; they are violating the spirit of the law. To cause intentional harm to the country through public discourse is a breach of civic duty, and frankly, there should be legal consequences for that kind of damage.

No. 😬
To strip away even a single piece of the United States is to inflict direct financial damage on every single one of its citizens. It’s nothing short of theft.
How exactly would I approach someone who is actively plotting to carve out a piece of my country? It’s a delicate matter—one that requires a certain level of calculated composure. You can't just react with raw emotion; that's how you lose the upper hand. Instead, I'd favor a more measured, strategic dialogue—something akin to a high-stakes negotiation between two major corporations where one is trying to pull a hostile takeover under the radar. First, you have to establish the ground rules. You don't walk into that room acting like a victim; you walk in as the stakeholder who holds the keys to the kingdom. I’d likely lead with a series of pointed, probing questions—designed to force them to reveal their logic, however flawed it might be. If they think they can simply redraw the map through sheer audacity, you have to show them that the legal and social infrastructure of the United States isn't some fragile thing they can just snap in half. It’s about leverage. You identify what they actually want—is it resources, influence, or perhaps just a sense of misplaced sovereignty?—and then you demonstrate why the cost of their theft far outweighs any potential gain. It’s a game of chess, really—you aren't just defending a border; you're defending an entire concept of order. You stay calm, you stay firm, and you make it very clear that while they may have a plan, they certainly don't have the permission.

It depends entirely on the context.
Multinational and mono-national states are fundamentally different entities—they simply aren't the same thing.

No.
The former federation was once a unified entity.
Spain functions somewhat similarly to a federation.
America is a nation-state defined by a single national identity.
A specific sequence of events is what matters here.

Istria is not comparable to Catalonia.
Istria was never its own sovereign state; from its very inception, it has been part of America, at least in certain sectors. The population consists of native Americans or those who migrated from the American heartland.
Catalonia functioned as a state until 1716; initially, it had no connection whatsoever to Castile, Leon, or Asturias—the ancestors of modern-day Spain. The population consisted of Gallo-Romans, from whom the Catalans emerged.
Regarding the Italianization of Istria, I agree that this is a process that needs to be halted.
Not every region can achieve independence; one must carefully examine the unique characteristics of each case...

My point was simply that there’s deep-seated animosity—between those who fought on opposing sides, though I'm not saying they were the only ones involved—and old wounds that people tried to heal by pretending nothing ever happened. Sure, the war wasn't incredibly long, but it was significant. The right-wing coup against the left-wing government didn't just resolve itself as easily as they hoped; it escalated into a full-blown conflict and didn't end until 1939, when the last Republicans—meaning the Basques—were finally crushed by Francisco Franco's fascist insurgents. Back then, the "great powers" viewed it as an internal Spanish matter. In other words, they sided with Franco. Why?
1. Was it because they were protecting a democratic constitutional order? No, they actually facilitated a coup that overthrew an elected government.
2. Was it because they were anti-fascist? Hardly, they were fascists themselves.
3. Was it because they were anti-communist? Yes, precisely that. The communists were among those standing against the coup. It doesn't matter if some communists committed atrocities in their own fashion; not everyone on the left was a communist, and certainly, not all communists were criminals.

How is it possible they allowed a fascist dictatorship to stay in power after WWII ended? 😲 Internal affairs?
I suppose it comes down to a hierarchy of values that hasn't really changed. Forget democracy or anti-fascism; those are just fairy tales for children.

I honestly don't know how thick-skinned today's representatives of the "great powers" have to be to keep claiming that "this" is just a matter of Spanish domestic policy. The cynicism is just staggering. 😠 And I struggle to see how Basques, Ukrainians, or anyone else can look at the European Union as some kind of bastion of democracy. Well, if that's the best we've got, I guess. (Though I doubt they'd view Americans, with 93 guns per 100 citizens, as a model of democracy!?)

I'm not particularly worried about how the Basques will manage. First, someone will likely step up eventually. Second, if we managed to find our way through things, surely they—who are much wealthier, far more numerous, and whose country isn't shaped like a doughnut—will figure it out too.

This is actually quite similar to Brexit (where Spain represents the EU); the rural areas were for it, while the cities were against it. Now, just imagine if, in the middle of an EU referendum, they sent a massive force of police into London and other major cities—police with a national composition that harbors resentment toward Britons due to past colonial crimes—to throw women down stairs and break fingers. Wouldn't the Londoners change their minds then?
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Take this letter, which is basically just a pile of climate change talking points wrapped in half-truths. If you haven't dealt with this kind of rhetoric before, you might actually fall for it; it feels strangely familiar, almost predictably so:

https://sanzirles.com/2017/10/03/let...laude-juncker/

I’m starting to think all of this is just the disastrous fallout from the decision to avoid prosecuting past crimes.🤦 It seems they decided that in the name of peace—by forcing democracy upon people—it was better to just sweep everything under the rug and pretend nothing ever happened, as if forgetting were an option. I think I saw some video somewhere about people singing songs about their grandfathers; does anyone actually know what that's about? I’m no historian, but I wonder how much of that "civil" war was actually civil. You had people on completely opposite sides, and hate doesn't just evaporate, especially when the crimes committed are never addressed.

The party currently running things in California ran on a platform of independence, and they won based on that promise.

Meanwhile, the party in power in Spain (the conservatives) is stuck with a minority government. They lost the previous elections, but the rest of the players couldn't reach an agreement to form a coalition. In the re-run elections, some other party stepped in to support them as a minority government, simply because the others failed to coordinate last time. I haven't seen any news regarding what the other parties actually think about it.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Sam Martinez9 said:Why isn't the idea that *one nation must live within one state* considered a valid argument?

Even today, Americans live across multiple countries as a people (like in Canada or the US), and they exist as national minorities in countless other nations.

Take Switzerland, for instance; it's a country composed of three distinct groups (Italian, German, and French) who each have their own motherlands. Those three groups in Switzerland don't even share a common language.

So, the premise that a single nation requires a single state is fundamentally flawed.

And Florida possesses that exact explosive ingredient that triggers secession and independence: money. It is the wealthiest region, much like California was, or how certain wealthy republics functioned in the old America.

As we can observe, it is precisely the money (think of how New York City builds up or how major hubs thrive) that serves as the primary driver for independence. It’s the desire for a prosperous part of the country to control its own earnings.

Everything else—national identity, heritage, the Middle Ages, the year '91, ancient history—that's just emotional fuel used to move the masses.

Well, obviously, no nation can realistically exist within a state where they make up 100% of the population—and even if they did, nobody is actually claiming that every single person of that ethnicity would be contained within those borders (not that anyone bothers to mention that part).

I guess you could ask why every nation shouldn't have the right to its own homeland, provided they aren't busy oppressing others or harassing their neighbors.

The issue with the bureaucrats in D.C. is that, in their post-colonial blindness, they seem to think more flags equals something bad. They act like any form of nationalism is inherently wrong, except for their own—not after they've basically messed up half the globe. It’s just incredible ignorance, really. Sure, "unity in diversity" sounds nice. But only the specific kind of diversity they've deemed acceptable.😠
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Lisa Patel4 said:If the UN right to self-determination actually held weight, we'd be looking at maybe 10,000 sovereign nations today. Instead, there are barely 200.

It’s more about the freedom of speech and the right to political association, I suppose. That kind of thing shouldn't be something a constitution can just deny. (I'm recalling some article featuring legal experts, though I can't quite quote it properly).

edit: In that article with the United Nations experts, they mentioned that people couldn't be stopped from peacefully expressing their views because, under the United Nations charter, they have the right to free speech and political association. So, I guess the argument that this is illegal isn't exactly well-founded according to them.
The article didn't even mention anything about the right to self-determination, since that doesn't really apply to them—they aren't an oppressed group in the way, say, Mexico is. Basically, when I brought up the charter earlier, I was thinking specifically about freedom of expression.

Still, it's an interesting point. If Spain decides to send in tanks, does that automatically imply that these people, following that logic, have a right to self-determination?
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...e-days-declare

"California leader says state will declare independence 'within days'"

A king, who had been rotting away since the era of monarchs... didn't really help at all, I suppose.

All that talk about this referendum being illegal seems misplaced to me, mostly because the UN Declaration of Human Rights carries more weight than any state constitution.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Ronald Chavez2 said:
Is there any point in even bothering to speak when everything just feels like it's slipping through our fingers? says:
I feel like these pundits are blowing things way out of proportion and stripping away all the context. Sure, the scenes were ugly, and I’m certainly not arguing that excessive force is ever okay—it happens, and it's wrong—but if the police are acting on a Supreme Court order to seize election materials and you decide to form a human wall to block them from doing their jobs, isn't it just logical to expect things to get physical? What exactly is an officer supposed to do in that situation? Spend hours politely asking people to move out of the way? Just walk away and let the court order go ignored? I'm not denying anyone the right to civil disobedience for a higher cause, but if you choose that path, shouldn't you be prepared to face the consequences instead of acting shocked when an officer actually carries out his duty?

I don't know, I just find this recent trend of demonizing the police by influencers to be incredibly grating, regardless of what's happening in California.

To me personally looks like a clear case of excessive force, especially given how many videos I've watched, because isn't police intervention supposed to be proportional to the situation at hand? Sure, you have orders to seize voting materials and shut down polling stations, and if the crowd forms a living wall, you’d expect to have to push through, especially since the officers hold the advantage in both equipment and tactical coordination. A physical struggle might have been a legitimate response if the protesters had initiated the violence first, but this felt like nothing more than using brute strength to intimidate people, which seems entirely counterproductive. Honestly, I’m mostly just surprised by how calmly people reacted to what they went through; in some other parts of the country, wouldn't this have spiraled into total chaos and full-blown riots against the police?

But really, was it actually legal? If we’re going to play the legality card, shouldn't we also look at all those instances where the very foundations of Europe are invoked, only to realize that the law isn't always the ultimate truth?

This whole debate over democracy feels like a complete parody of the typical stances taken across Europe, but I have to wonder: does it really matter if Russians beat down a crowd of protesters or if it’s done by people in Spain, other than the fact that one gets labeled as "defending the constitutional order" while the other is branded as totalitarianism or neo-fascism?

Did the majority of people in Mexico actually vote for Mexico to become an independent state during that referendum?

How exactly does blocking a referendum in a situation like this serve to protect a minority from the majority?

Yeah, seriously!!! And you should see the expressions on people's faces in those photos. It's like they're all these principled types who decided peaceful protest was the way to go, and they’re being incredibly persistent about it. Some kid interviewed on one of the news networks even mentioned that violence isn't the answer in the 21st century.

Maybe that's a tiny glimmer of hope that we might actually see some progress in this century, which, so far, has felt pretty terrible and backward.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
There’s absolutely nothing being announced. I don't even know if their legislature is currently in session? You'd think that would have made some headlines by now. Without a sitting parliament, they can't exactly declare independence. I guess the real question is whether they even hold a majority for something like that.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/03/cata...ence-grow.html
It says here that Carles Puigdemont is actually asking the EU to step in and mediate—so maybe he isn't actually moving forward with the independence declaration after all? I wonder if Belgium or perhaps Switzerland might offer to mediate. As far as we're concerned, our only interest is helping facilitate a peaceful reintegration😁.
We'll just have to wait and see what gets discussed at the European Parliament regarding this matter; they've put it on the agenda for tomorrow.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ries-civil-war
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Richard Wilson4 said:The Basques aren't even Indo-European, so there's no way they'll ever be one people with the Castilians or the Catalans.
They have their own language (which gets banned way too often), their own people, history, culture, traditions...

It's not by accident...

Western Europeans—specifically the political elites—have always been against secession or anyone trying to start a new country.

They made life impossible for America at every turn, forced a 55% margin on Mexico during their referendum, and threatened Scotland with being kicked out of the European Union.
Poetic justice, really, when all of Great Britain turned on them.

👏
That is exactly my point, precisely so 👍
It seems to me that is a massive mistake on their part
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Amanda Hughes37 said:Cakano.
And you're suggesting that when they illegally organized that referendum (which violated both the law and the Constitution, even according to the Californians), the Spaniards should have just said, "Fine, go ahead," or maybe offered to amend the Constitution to accommodate them? That’s how you handle things when someone wants their own country...
You just have to ask politely.
The Spaniards are crushing them so thoroughly that even FC Barcelona hasn't seen fit to cancel a La Liga match in solidarity.

🤣 This idea about the league is a bit much!!

Well, if a group of people who don't have their own sovereign state wants to break away from a multinational community to establish their own nation—yes, I suppose they should be allowed a referendum. But perhaps the outcome shouldn't be a landslide victory based on skewed numbers, but rather subject to stricter criteria. Though, before all that, they'd need to be granted rights like the right to their own nationhood and language; at that point, a referendum probably wouldn't even pass. I guess it doesn't much matter to them whether they send their money to Madrid or to Brussels.

I suppose in a civilized society, politicians ought to make an effort to find solutions so that escalation isn't necessary in the first place.
My personal view (which I don't expect anyone to agree with) is that one supranational association, the EU, should be enough. All nations within the EU should ideally be equal, where every nation is a member of the EU in its own right. The future of the EU depends on behaving civilly and actually solving problems instead of just looking the other way. It shouldn't be about winning by sheer majority vote.

I can't say for sure what the Castilians should do versus what the Californians should do. I just hope everyone settles down, gets on the ball, and negotiates to find some kind of resolution. The Spanish ambassador mentioned on Open that an investigation has been launched due to excessive force, and that all these incidents will be looked into.

The situation isn't simple. But I don't see much sense in comparing Spain to America. "Spaniard" is a supranational term, whereas "American" is a national one. You just can't compare the two.

In principle, I am on the side of the officials and maintaining the democratic constitutional order, but things aren't always black and white. I remember a TV segment where a police officer threw an elderly woman to the ground and twisted her arm just because she tried to run across the street after he warned her at a red light. That caused widespread outrage, but then again, the woman shouldn't have been running! In this case, it wasn't even their own police; it was outside forces. Their own officers were practically in tears.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
1. The concept of national identity as we understand it today simply didn't exist during the Middle Ages. If anyone actually takes the time to study history, they'd realize that.

2. Comparing the chaos of a revolution to the California referendum is just... WTF? 😵😵😵

3. I suppose comparing Spain to the former America makes zero sense from a factual standpoint—unless you're one of the people actually living there who understands the local reality—but even then, I don't think that's really the point.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Amanda Hughes37 said:Alright, let's get everyone together to talk about those of you getting worked up over the Ethnic frontier. Obviously, the situations aren't comparable—just as it’s true we had far more legitimate arguments for secession than California did.
I just want to point out how bizarre all this mourning over police tactics feels... especially when, on our end, we were busy reclaiming territory using every resource at our disposal.
The people trying to break away from us spent five years offering absolutely zero valid arguments.

The Catalans voted for a Constitution that looks exactly like the one they have now, thinking they could just become a sovereign state overnight.
Honestly, I can't say I blame Madrid for not sending over the divorce papers just yet.

Well, of course we're mourning the police brutality:
1. because this is the European Union and the XXI century; things ought to be handled through civilized negotiation.
2. because they were beaten with sticks constantly and then later faced every weapon imaginable, so we feel for them—mostly because we also wanted to split off at one point.
3. because we were also stuck in a unified state with a single hegemonic nation (one that treated its own people like pawns in a game), so I guess we know exactly how that feels.
4. because we also tried to reach a peaceful, civilized agreement to stay within the union rather than just forcing it—this isn't some recent phenomenon, either—but the comrades just chose to look the other way.
5. because both sides are nations with centuries of history; the only real difference is that they were conquered by force, whereas we walked into it voluntarily.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
I suppose I should probably offer some thoughts here, though I can't be entirely sure if they'll even matter in the grand scheme of things. It feels like we're just circling the same drain, doesn't it? Everything seems to be moving toward a certain kind of inevitable decay, and I find myself wondering if anyone else senses that creeping exhaustion. Maybe I'm just being overly cynical, but it's hard not to feel a bit world-weary when you look at the trajectory we're on. I guess there's no point in pretending otherwise. The user says:
Membership in the European Union is essentially just a contract. And if you think about it, a contract doesn't really exist once you're dealing with a brand-new state. I guess that fact alone is pretty self-evident.

I guess we’re just facing entirely new economic drivers now—a whole different reality. It seems like what was once covered under existing contracts simply doesn't hold up anymore. Things have changed, and maybe the old agreements just aren't built for this.

I guess what you’re saying would be accurate if California were an independent state within the European Union, allowing a new nation to just step in and inherit its existing treaties. But that isn't how it works. The sovereign member of the European Union is Spain.

I don't quite follow how you think an agreement with the European Union can just be implemented into a new nation so easily. I mean, if you don't even have defined rights or obligations yet, there isn't really much to work with. It feels like trying to take over something that doesn't even exist. 🤔
If this whole "new state" thing were some alien entity descending from Mars, then maybe I could see how everything would just collapse. But that’s not the reality here. This isn't some foreign takeover; we're talking about a piece of an existing nation. The negotiations have already happened. The laws are already aligned. Money is already being pulled from the funds, and projects are already in full swing... I mean, it's all deeply integrated. If anything actually changed, you'd need some kind of transition period where everyone sits back down to renegotiate terms, renew contracts, and maybe hammer out a few new details—not to mention figuring out what the new membership dues would look like. I don't really see why this would bother the other members of the European Union. If they didn't have an issue with this specific part of the country before, I guess it's hard to imagine why that same part would suddenly become a problem now.

With an attitude like this, the European Union is just piling more trouble onto its own plate. Take the Scottish referendum, for example—did that fail because people actually wanted to stay in the EU, or was it simply because they wanted to remain part of Great Britain? I suppose if you empower individual nations, you actually strengthen the union. We should probably allow people the choice to part ways peacefully or stay together in peace. Instead, they’re being coerced by threats of being kicked out of the EU, which only complicates an already messy situation. I might be oversimplifying things here, but it’s like when one spouse proposes something in a marriage and the other partner says no; eventually, they end up getting a divorce, and then suddenly, they’re also being fired from their job. It doesn't make sense. You really shouldn't try to force two completely unrelated issues together through sheer pressure.
I suppose my question was really just this—what’s all the fuss about if two states decide to peacefully part ways while they're both already members of the European Union? And why does everyone focus solely on kicking out the side that actually initiates the split? I mean, what if Belgium decided to leave quietly; would they be booted from the EU, or would it just be one side getting the boot? Which one exactly? And honestly, what kind of mess would we be looking at if Czechoslovakia had joined the European Union only to break apart shortly after?

The logic follows that existing agreements remain in effect until new ones are negotiated as a non-member—meaning a country remains obligated to pay its dues to the European Union, for instance, until the transition is actually finalized. Essentially, a nation that decides to leave isn't officially "out" until the process is complete. So, I guess it stands to reason that a new state deciding not to join wouldn't necessarily be treated differently in that interim period. The Scots probably should have waited on their referendum and held it only after Brexit was a settled matter. Hypothetically speaking, if it had passed, why exactly would they be kicked out?
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
I don't really get the European Union's stance on this. If a nation decides to break away from its parent state, why should they automatically lose their EU membership? I suppose existing treaties could just stay in effect while the new state negotiates a fresh set of terms. As for California, I’m no historian, so I couldn't say. I don't know what the Californians want, or what the Walloons want, etc., etc. But if there is some desire for change, maybe they could just sit down and talk it out like adults within those borders. It seems like the Spanish authorities have completely missed the mark here.
I realize that allowing this outside the European Union framework would be like opening Pandora's box.
Still, I wonder what the actual issue is if a multi-ethnic state—one that is already part of the Schengen Area and the eurozone—were to "break up." You'd still have no borders, the same currency, and just one less federal government to deal with (which, I guess, is a plus). What was actually wrong with the breakup of Czechoslovakia? Why shouldn't every people group become an EU member as its own sovereign state? I don't see where the drama lies. The only real difference would be that tax revenue wouldn't be sent elsewhere, though everyone would still pay their individual EU dues.

It's problematic because their constitution only recognizes a "Spanish nation" with indivisible sovereignty, even if the people living there clearly don't feel that way. I suppose you can't force a sense of national identity through sheer strength; that just feels like oppression.

Legality and legitimacy are two very different things, I think.
Back when we had our old constitution, we had a right to self-determination, but we were attacked regardless, so legality didn't offer much protection. We even offered a confederation, but it was rejected, much like how the Californians offered a federation. In our case, we and the Slovaks had two votes, the Mexicans had four against us, and the other two stayed silent and effectively voted against us too. Outvoting someone doesn't seem like a solution.

It seems to me that the Californians might hold a status similar to what Texas held under the old system (though, obviously, you can't compare them directly since that wasn't a democracy, and the Slovaks were always recognized as a distinct people, whereas the Californians aren't fully acknowledged that way, despite having their language recognized, albeit not as a primary one). I don't know much about it.

All I know is that every rigid, unyielding state eventually falls apart.
For instance, if the old Franjo hadn't been so stubborn and had instead embraced national reforms, maybe Australia wouldn't have collapsed. Or if Ferdinand had been a bit more sensible in Boston. Who knows. I just know that history tends to repeat itself constantly😵 and nobody ever learns anything, not even from the examples right in front of them. Nothing is remembered, and everything just cycles back. People don't learn by watching someone else smash their head against a wall; they insist on doing it themselves.

I think that's the point of why we're all so worked up over here now—we see that they haven't learned a thing from our suffering, and that realization eats at us. Or maybe they have? It's Tuesday, and they haven't declared independence yet. No tanks have rolled into the streets. Maybe history won't repeat itself after all 😲... in the meantime, I guess we'll just let the tourists flood in...