briskjackal5 said:I mean, I basically agree with you, though I guess the way you put it—saying it "has to work immediately"—might not be the best way to frame it.
But, like, what does "work" even mean?
And what does "immediately" mean? Like, right after the very first training session where you tried it?
And against whom? An inexperienced guy, some average dude, just anyone?😁
We’re pretty much on the same page here, really. I just think the most important part is breaking techniques down piece by piece.
For example, I could show you three different setups for a triangle choke and talk through how to finish it... but honestly, if you try to do it all at once, it just isn't going to work right (and I've seen plenty of guys try that and totally fail miserably).
Instead, you really need to get those hip and leg movements down first. You should probably drill that for a few sessions before you even attempt triangles, and honestly, everyone should be drilling that. At the same time, you have to actually understand the point of the move. I guess it's better to drill the movement that needs to become automatic first, and then maybe a session or two later, move on to the next step—otherwise, people tend to focus too much on the actual choking mechanics rather than drilling the essential movement that makes the whole thing happen (which, you know, includes a good chunk of the mechanics anyway).
Then, you have to learn the specific timing of when you can actually go for the triangle, and *then* you learn the setup and the full technique. Only then will a basic triangle (without getting bogged down in counters and counter-counters) actually work for you.
Of course, that’s all assuming you want a triangle so solid that even a pro wrestler couldn't escape the choke.
If you don't care about that, hey, just squeeze and tighten up.😁
But I don't think that's even what you meant with your paragraph, so I guess we're basically agreeing. And all that talk about things not working for ten years and then suddenly—abracadabra!—well, to be honest, that sounds a little hard to believe to me.
- briskjackal5 -
Alright, I'm with you—that term is definitely a bit clunky right off the bat.
Right away, under the basic terms—meaning without countering your partner (uke)—but also without...
Stop with this nonsense... I’m gonna drop this even though your technique was trash, but in five years I’ll be like, "Actually, you were onto something," because by then you'll finally find your way... blah blah blah... etc.
We’re basically on the same page; the only thing that matters is breaking these techniques down and tackling them one step at a time.
Look, I could walk you through three different ways to set up a triangle and tell you exactly how to wrap it up... but you probably won't do it right. I’ve seen plenty of guys try that approach and absolutely butcher it.
Look, you gotta nail those hip and leg movements first. You should be drilling that for a few sessions before you even touch triangles—and honestly, everyone does that. At the same time, you need to actually grasp the point of the technique. It’s better to hammer the movement until it's muscle memory before moving on a session or two later; otherwise, people just end up obsessing over the choke mechanics instead of drilling the actual movement they need to master.
First, you gotta figure out which weight class actually lets you pull off a triangle. Once that's set, you grind the setup and the full technique. Only then does a basic triangle—without all the extra nonsense about counters and counter-counters—actually work.
Sure, but only if you want a triangle setup where even a pro wrestler can't escape the choke.
If you don't care, just tighten it up and get on with it. 😁
Exactly.
Every technique needs movement drills, whether you’re working from the ground or on your feet. You’ve got to drill hip mobility—that’s huge for pretty much any BJJ style out there. Every single move, regardless of the specific system, has a few fundamental phases. You have to define the movement and the posture for each phase. That’s how you build enough muscle memory to handle mistakes when things start moving fast.
Techniques can stray from the original template sometimes, but you’ll still get the same result in the end.
I don't think that’s even what you meant by that paragraph, but basically, we're on the same page. And this whole "it doesn't work for ten years and then suddenly abracadabra" thing? Honestly, it sounds pretty sketchy to me.
I think I finally cleared up what I meant by "IMMEDIATELY," and your point about the triangle choke definitely backs that up. When you're just starting out, the specific technique matters way less than actually being in the right spot. If your body positioning and movement aren't on point, you aren't doing anything smart. Good positioning creates that "time window" to actually execute the move—without it, the technique doesn't even exist.
Technique obviously improves day by day, but this idea that you get a sudden explosion of quality after ten years of grinding on the mats is just total nonsense.
Update: That "abracadabra" term you used perfectly describes that whole process of
ten-year mystification.