Posts by copperdrifter26

mellowtiger83 said:Nobody seems to be giving Lewis Hamilton any credit for how he managed to stay right on the heels of those Ferraris during the first stint while running on Medium tires.

What an absolute legend of a driver!

Six World Championships is well-deserved.

Hamilton belongs right up there in the conversation with Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher. 🙏

Honestly, the guy was miles ahead of Sebastian Vettel—I’d say it was purely down to raw pace—and even pulling slightly ahead of Fernando Alonso too.

Roger Wright94 said:Calling them idiots feels like a bit of an understatement this time around regarding qualifying.
I really can't stand how they failed to stick to their own agreement. After asking Sebastian Vettel to let Charles Leclerc through (keeping their word), all they did was stall and try to play both sides of the fence. It felt very murky.
In a situation like that, you have to hold firm to the plan. It’s obvious the race engineer couldn't force the issue, but surely someone higher up the chain could have stepped in.

Team trust and chemistry are built on mutual respect and honoring the hierarchy and everyone's specific roles.
One single race doesn't change much in terms of the standings (especially for Ferrari right now), but the impact on internal team dynamics can be long-lasting.

If the race engineer (or better yet, the Team Principal) had insisted that Sebastian Vettel honor the deal early on, they would have put him in a tough spot. If he wanted to be difficult and refuse, fine—let him. At least then they’d know exactly where they stood and could head into the next races with a clean slate.
Even if he had been faster and taken P2 while leaving Charles Leclerc with P1 (which was totally doable), you can always adjust tactics later.

But look, I get that it wasn't an easy call. Sebastian Vettel absolutely dominated the start and then just pulled away. As time ticked by, the decision became even more complicated. From a management perspective, they had a solid 1st-2nd and a very high chance of winning the race.
I have some empathy for how things unfolded—they didn't completely abandon the swap after all—and I’d say they played it decently, though I wish they'd shown a bit more backbone.

Decent enough, sure, but Sebastian Vettel tried to make a gap between them in clear air just so it would look like he was the one calling the shots psychologically.

And he actually pulled it off, even though the agreement was different. He even said over the team radio, "I think I could have taken him anyway." He thinks he could, but Charles Leclerc didn't fight back or try to dive down the inside to break the slipstream; he just did exactly what was agreed upon.

Well, if that's how you feel, then you messed up when you agreed to that tactic in the first place. Now it turns out the logic is: "If I have a slow start, give me a tow; but if I have a great start, give me a tow and then I'll claim I could have beaten you with or without your help." 🙏

cosmiccyclist8 said:Was there some kind of secret deal to let Charles Leclerc go ahead because he had such a rough race last time? Did they suddenly realize he’s got more points than Seb from those two previous races and decided to bump him up to the number one driver spot? But seriously, what the hell were they thinking letting him through in the very first lap after the start??? Things started getting messy immediately after the start—it's like they aren't even trying to run a proper race, what's their plan here?

Sebastian Vettel's engineer was actually the first one to say it, right away, that he should let Charles Leclerc past, because that was the agreement.

If Seb knew he was going to have such a damn good start, he would have just said "thank you," but he accepted the deal because it guaranteed at least 2nd place, and honestly, looking at how things went, 1st after Turn 1 was pretty likely.

If he hadn't agreed to it—if he had botched the start and Charles Leclerc swung to the right to give Lewis Hamilton a tow while holding the inside line through Turn 1—he might have ended up stuck in 3rd.

That was the dilemma for Sebastian. He wants to have his cake and eat it too.

James Roberts87 said:There was no way Charles Leclerc could have defended that spot. I mean, practically right after the first 50 meters, Sebastian Vettel was already breathing down his neck. Moving left or right wouldn't have mattered; he was going to get overtaken by the whole car before they even hit the braking zone.

He absolutely could have defended, especially considering how he handled Valtteri Bottas back in 2018.

https://streamable.com/lomtv

Would he have actually gone for it? It's hard to say for sure, but it's pretty obvious that everyone at Ferrari—Sebastian Vettel included—decided it was better to just secure that 1-2 finish. They figured if they didn't block the slipstream and let him pass Turn 1, they could just tear it up later in the race.

What if Sebastian Vettel had botched his start? Then Charles Leclerc would have just pulled away and everything would've been sunshine and rainbows. But nope, Sebastian had a great start, so he can basically say, "Broken deal! I started too well for that plan to work."

It’s like, if I have a bad start, the deal stands—give me the tow. If I have a great start, the deal still stands for you to give me the tow, but I'm definitely not giving up my position.

Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

Sebastian is playing this role perfectly... Back in China, he was demanding that Charles Leclerc move out of the way because he was faster, yet Mattia Binotto didn't budge when the orders came down for Charles to yield the position.

Kimi Räikkönen drove like he was fighting for the championship in the final race of the season in China, which ended up messing up the race for both himself and Kimi.

Now he’s trying to act all cool and nonchalant, but he’s really just doing it to win people over since he's sitting at -21 and there's no end in sight to his qualifying deficit.

I am seriously looking forward to Japan. Neither one of them is going to care about team orders there. And honestly, if Charles Leclerc starts on pole again, Sebastian Vettel might be better off not being on the second row at all, because there's no chance he's pulling an Indianapolis Motor Speedway repeat.

mellowtiger83 said:To be fair, he's forgetting at least two key facts here.

1. Charles Leclerc didn't even attempt to defend his position at the start.
2. If Charles Leclerc had been in clean air, he would have pulled away from Sebastian Vettel just the same.
3. By the time everyone was asking for a move, Lewis Hamilton was safely tucked about 2 seconds behind and wasn't posing any threat to Ferrari.

Either way, I'm counting down the days until the rest of the season starts.

Mercedes-Benz has pretty much secured everything; mathematically maybe not yet, but we all know how this ends.

You have to admit, Sebastian Vettel absolutely crushed poor Charles Leclerc in that psychological battle.

Back in Singapore, on what should've been his strongest track, he got outpaced in qualifying and had to start from second row. But through pit stops and a perfect undercut, he snatched the win and basically told the kid, "Hey, settle down... nobody is bigger than Ferrari."

Then in RT Russia, this guy outclasses him again in qualifying, and they essentially make a deal to let him through at Turn 1, giving him the PERFECT tow—meaning no weaving to break the slipstream. After that, Sebastian Vettel's engineer says, "Seb, let Charles through now," and instead of just doing it, he does something clever. He hammers the throttle to the end, and in clean air, he forces Charles Leclerc to chase him through the entire first stint just to prove he’s actually faster.

Of course, after lap 9, the tires are shot and he can't keep up with Sebastian Vettel in clean air anymore. So we end up right back where we started, with Sebastian Vettel worrying whether they'll ask him to pit ahead of or behind Charles Leclerc. He proved to everyone he was faster, but he did it by taking 100% of the benefit from the deal and then refusing to do his part (which would have been letting Charles Leclerc go and proving he could hold his own in dirty air).

It's funny, isn't it? When you're profiting, suddenly "nobody is bigger than Ferrari," but when it's time to pay it back, suddenly you aren't interested. It's interesting that despite getting beat nine times in a row in qualifying, he still gets all the fan sympathy.

Smart take, though I don't think we'll see a movie like that playing out in Suzuki. 🎉

stormybadger8 said:Who's actually claiming there wasn't an agreement?
All the key players involved are saying the deal was definitely in place...
That’s what Charles Leclerc, Sebastian Vettel, and Mattia Binotto all stated...

The real point of contention is just a tiny detail: was Charles overtaken because of that agreement, or did he simply get passed because Sebastian Vettel had a killer start and Lewis Hamilton had a poor one (obviously just a bad day caused by those medium tires)?

And the only thing people are arguing about is whether Charles let Sebastian through because of the deal, or if he just messed up his start regardless of any agreement.

Charles clearly thinks he slipped up because of the deal, whereas Sebastian thinks he would have slipped up either way.
Binotto doesn't seem to know what to say, so he just rambles, acting like a fool and spinning fairytales by claiming that if Sebastian hadn't gone into the pits four laps later, he wouldn't have been placed behind Charles.🙂🤣

All in all, this is the first real test of what kind of boss Binotto actually is, and so far, it doesn't look like he's quite passing it.
Instead of being loud and clear about how things should be and who is right, he's trying to play nice with both drivers to stay neutral, but that's just not how it works...

You're being transparent and playing dumb here. Charles behaved 100% according to the agreement, while Sebastian failed to deliver even 10% of his part.

He took the tow, got Turn 1 (exactly as planned), and then started dragging his feet when it came time to hand over the position. Mind you, it's pretty obvious what he was doing. He knew Charles would just take him in the pits no matter what he did since he was ignoring team orders, but he wanted to give the impression that he was fast and didn't *need* to give the spot back—even though he'd happily give it back per the deal.

Charles also had a hell of a start and could have easily pulled a Valtteri Bottas 18' move, pulling alongside on the inside where Sebastian, if he actually wanted the tow, should have been positioned too. Now, to make an overtake from that inside line, he'd have to swing out to the outside, which isn't easy at all, especially since the inside line gives you the advantage.

At the end of the day, it all boils down to the fact that Charles followed the agreement 100% while Sebastian didn't, acting coy throughout the entire first stint when the kid was still within 1.5 seconds of him by lap 9. Sure, it's nicer to drive in clean air than to sit behind the same car for nine laps, but you can't use that as an excuse.

As for Singapore, Charles and Lewis Hamilton built a 1.5s gap within seven laps because nobody was really racing until lap 13. Now, you're asking Charles to pull Sebastian into the DRS zone (even though he'd been within 1.5s for nine laps), but Sebastian was 2s behind Lewis Hamilton and falling back, so he ended up in the pits.

Basically, Charles is 3.5s ahead of Sebastian; if he beats him in qualifying, does Sebastian just get him via the pits and better strategy? Sebastian was fast.

Charles sticks to the agreement 100% and lets Sebastian into Turn 1, shadowing him for the first 10 laps within 1.5s, only for Sebastian to fail to hold up and eventually drop 4s behind? Sebastian was fast.

If you don't know that, you're going to pay dearly.🙂

Sebastian Vettel really shouldn't have agreed to let Charles Leclerc tow him like that, and honestly, that was the whole problem. If you just look back at how Valtteri Bottas started last year, everything becomes crystal clear.

If Charles had just lunged toward the inside right at the start, he would’ve given Lewis Hamilton the tow while simultaneously stripping that advantage away from Sebastian Vettel. Now, since Vettel was likely on those Mexican-spec tires, he probably could have pulled off a move on Hamilton right there—but would he have gotten that same kind of acceleration, or would Charles have even let him through at Turn 1? I highly doubt it...

Actually, I think it's great that this all went down, because it means we're going to see some absolutely brutal racing through the end of the season. Ferrari certainly won't be foolish enough to pull these kinds of nonsense moves again.

stormybadger8 said:Charles Leclerc wasn't even within Sebastian Vettel's DRS zone once, and if it was impossible to get close enough to even hit the DRS zone, then honestly, what are we even talking about? 🤦
You can play philosopher all you want, but the reality is Charles didn't have even a fraction of Vettel's pace...

He dialed in a qualifying setup at the cost of absolutely wrecking his race, but hey, who cares? He’ll just have a little cry over the team radio and then Jean Todt will start leaning on the crew—maybe even calling in some favors from his old buddies if he has to...🙂

And I have no clue what Singapore has to do with this?
If Sebastian Vettel had pitted the lap right after Charles (like what happened back in Singapore) just to jump him, Charles wouldn't have even seen him...
But Vettel pitted four laps after Charles; Ferrari gave him a pit stop that was only 0.5 seconds slower than Charles's, and he still came out right on his tail...

It’s basically impossible to pull up into the DRS zone on this track; I don't know why you're playing dumb. You need at least a full second just to have a minimal chance of an overtake. It was crystal clear that Charles didn't even have 0.02 or 0.03 seconds, let alone a full second advantage. But it's also certain that Sebastian wouldn't be able to do much in dirty air, which is probably why after lap 8 he said, "No, no, let's hang in there a bit longer and see."

And THEN Ferrari's pit wall tells Charles, "We'll do the
change later." Which is exactly what happened, but in the pit lane. Sebastian was being sneaky, trying to show he wasn't going to let the kid pass while simultaneously ignoring the agreement.

I bring up Singapore because you're being so loud about that 4-second gap here, even though Charles was actually right on his bumper within 1.5 seconds until lap 10. Back then, when Sebastian was 3.5 seconds behind after the first stop, everyone was saying "he was just saving tires."

Yeah, sure, saving them just to put them in a display case...

Sebastian knew exactly what he was doing, and that's why Ferrari left him out two laps too long—to teach him a lesson. Nothing more. Just like that Multi 21 incident... He apologized back then, but deep down he knew he'd secured that No1 status and authority. Today, he's sitting at -9 in a row and -21 in the standings.👍

mellowtiger83 said:But seriously, look—since I’m not one of those die-hard fanboys who blindly cheers for anyone, I have to conclude that Sebastian Vettel was actually the better driver than Charles Leclerc today. Once the Ferrari crew realized he was the one with the superior race pace, they really should have started building their strategy around him.

Honestly, messing with the tactics like that was probably the dumbest move the Ferrari pit wall could have made.

Even if there was some sort of agreement regarding the start, it couldn't be honored because of Lewis Hamilton and how Ferrari played it, and by then, Vettel was already too far gone to even bother following orders.

He set a pretty simple condition: "let me through once I'm close enough," but not only did Charles fail to close the gap, the lead Vettel had actually stretched out to 4.5 seconds.

At the end of the day, what more can you say? The black catholic executed the perfect tactical play and completely outmaneuvered the rest of the Ferrari squad.

Around lap 8, Ferrari tells Vettel to let Charles through, and his response is basically, "make me." At that point, Leclerc was trailing by 1.5 seconds.

It’s clear Seb knew exactly what he was doing. When you have that kind of gap in clean air, it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to catch up to the same car. He knew it, and he used it to his advantage.

And now we have geniuses like Tibi claiming that when Seb was at -3.5s in Singapore, he was just "saving tires" before the pit stop. Their logic is always, "Oh, Seb was fast anyway, of course he wasn't going to wait."

Of course he wasn't waiting! He held off the kid for about 7 or 8 laps at a ~1.5s interval just to burn off a bit of tire and pull away in clean air. And he did all this AFTER flat-out rejecting the team orders he had agreed to before the race even started.

TBF1D last week:

Sebastian Vettel was sitting 4 seconds back during that first stint because he was being smart and managing his tires. That undercut was just bad luck, honestly, but Seb knew exactly what he was doing.

TBF1D this week:

Charles Leclerc just couldn't catch Seb during the first stint because Seb was absolutely untouchable. He had the opening, but he just couldn't make it happen.

Vettel pulled a Multi 21 on us again. Once he moved ahead of the smaller car and got into clean air, he suddenly wanted to race. His logic was basically, "I'll give him the spot back later, but he has to catch me first." As if you can just destroy your tires fighting in dirty air while trying to prove you're faster in clean air just so they don't swap you out. Yeah, right. Like that works.

Anyone who actually knows Vettel knows he tends to play the martyr. It's the same thing we saw at Red Bull, or like when he was pushing to get ahead of Charles Leclerc in China—and once he finally got the position, he completely fell off the pace.

The agreement was DEFINITELY broken (which is exactly what Seb confirmed during his interview).

Charles Leclerc provides the tow, he doesn't play it safe. You overtake Lewis Hamilton and you guys slide right into a 1-2 formation at Turn 1. Now, I won't get into why Charles didn't move over toward Lewis or try to defend him in Turn 1. I'm not even going to touch on why Sebastian Vettel refused to give up the position, but suddenly, everything makes sense.

At the end of the day, Ferrari's strategy totally backfired on them. When you have two top-tier drivers on the roster, that's how you should be treating them. Honestly, it’s how Red Bull Racing would handle it too...

I mean, expecting actual team play from a crew acting like they're stuck in the Multi 21 era...🙂

Man, what a disaster for Sebastian Vettel. He starts out in P3, and then Charles Leclerc gives him this tow. Honestly, instead of taking that straight line where he could have easily pulled away to give Lewis Hamilton a chance—which would have forced Vettel to fight his way back from behind—he just hands it over, and then Vettel has to scramble to make the move at Turn 1.

I guess we’re in for plenty more of this shoving and fighting between them before the season wraps up. Personally, I’d love to see them race each other freely, similar to how Red Bull handles things. Forget about those Mercedes-Benz team orders; these two are world-class drivers, and neither one of them is interested in playing the role of the sidekick.

James Harris34 said:Honestly, I really think if Lewis Hamilton moved over to Ferrari right now, he’d walk in and immediately have that same massive points gap over everyone else that he currently enjoys with Mercedes. It just feels like it would happen.

No way, I totally disagree. Just a week ago, Ferrari was losing a full second in those slower sectors.🙂

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it a little suspicious how happy Sebastian Vettel looked after Q3?

I’ve got a feeling this was all a calculated tactical move, and honestly, it’s probably going to pay off big time for him at the start tomorrow.

I mean, trying to go for the pole on this track is a massive gamble. You’re basically asking to be a sitting duck heading into that first corner.

I didn't see it quite that way myself. I mean, just look at him when he climbed out of the car... maybe once he had a chance to cool off, sure, but being half a second off like that? Nine times in a row? While some young rookie on his own team is busy matching a 17-year-old record set by Michael Schumacher at Ferrari? No way. I just can't buy it.

mellowtiger83 said:Leclerc is absolutely dominating Vettel, staying about half a second ahead per lap.

I'm sitting here waiting for tomorrow's race just to see how Ferrari plans to slot Vettel in front of him. 🙂

When was the last time anyone saw that kind of qualifying dominance over a multi-time World Champion in general?

Honestly, I can't remember. Even Cake Ric didn't have an advantage quite like this. It was probably more like 0.05 or 0.1.

This isn't just a lead; this is a total demolition. Just pure destruction.

mellowtiger83 said:Charles Leclerc took the top spot in FP1! It’s looking like a solid start, and I’m really looking forward to seeing how things shake out as the weekend continues.

Did anyone catch that second stint? He was running on those older tires and carrying a heavier fuel load, yet he was still absolutely flying. Honestly, his aggression during those qualifying laps was just next level—it was wild to watch. At this rate, I just don't see any way for Sebastian Vettel to catch him in a single qualifying session for the rest of the season. 🙏

If you take what happened in Singapore as a hint, we should see plenty of overtaking happening at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway this year. The cars are definitely cutting through the dirty air much better now, plus they're running more downforce, so that DRS is going to be doing some heavy lifting right on that main straight.

Qualifying:

LEC
HAM
BOT

Race:

HAM
LEC
MAX

Nico has this whole situation where he was stuck driving a car against one of the absolute greatest drivers to ever sit in a cockpit (definitely top 10, if you ask me), whereas Sebastian was just going up against Mark Webber. It’s pretty obvious when you look at it that way...

Honestly, as the years go by, I find myself increasingly convinced that Sebastian Vettel just isn't on the same level as Nico Rosberg. I am absolutely certain that Rosberg wouldn't have made even half the mistakes Sebastian managed over those three years. Just thinking back to Baku and Singapore in 2017, not to mention all those spins during the last two seasons... man, what a mess. I really think young Charles Leclerc is going to dominate him. It’s just natural; he has more raw talent and a smoother driving style, much more like Lewis Hamilton or Kimi Räikkönen during their prime.

Vettel has this specific way of driving that feels inherently slower, kind of like how Fernando Alonso operates—he seems to prefer a bit of understeer.

All things considered, Rosberg went toe-to-toe with Lewis Hamilton and came incredibly close all three times, even grabbing a win. He snatched up a mountain of Pole Positions right in front of Lewis, who is clearly a better and faster driver than Vettel. Rosberg was only ever a tiny fraction behind Hamilton... I still remember looking at that telemetry comparison from 2015. He'd brake just a hair earlier or be a couple of miles per hour slower through the corner, and that was it—that's where that 0.1s gap came from.

As for Vettel... honestly, Lewis Hamilton would just blow past him. Maybe it's actually better if Lewis is the one to push him out of the way rather than some 20-year-old rookie.

stormybadger8 said:Another conspiracy theory 😬
If nobody else is going to jump in, then I guess I will 🤣

The issue might just be that Binotto misfired a cylinder—basically, he just gummed up the works...
That’s why the kid didn't follow team orders, sort of like telling a toddler, "Hey, buddy, maybe just sit this one out for a second," 🙂

As crazy as that sounds, it actually isn't totally impossible...

Regardless of how things look at Ferrari or if they probably prefer Leclerc over Vettel, if the kid really did ignore team orders, that means he went against the crew. And in an organization like Ferrari, that is a massive, absolute no-no 😉

lol How could they not? They’re basically about to throw away 10 points (they could have even lost all 25 if it wasn't for the SC), all just to teach the kid a lesson.

BTW, they didn't tell him, "You aren't allowed to overtake"; they told him to hold off for two more laps. But honestly, considering how fast he snatched Vettel, it was probably better for Ferrari anyway (since having him brake less helps push him toward Hamilton).

Kevin Cox said:When one car is trailing directly behind another, they lose about 50% of their downforce. Since Seb was feeling impatient, he tried to reclaim that spot immediately and just mashed the throttle while he was still mid-corner. And well... there you have it.

That was last year, though. This year they actually reduced the impact, so now they're losing maybe 25%, if I recall correctly. It makes following the car ahead a lot easier. But yeah, the point remains—all of those factors combined led to Vettel spinning out.