Posts by Paul Wilson72

Emily Gonzalez51 said:It was just one repeat offender. Over the summer, he ripped the camera off, broke into the high school, and trashed the student directory.

He got a formal reprimand. 😬

He didn't pay for the damages because he's on public assistance.

Well, that’s great news then.🙄

He can make up for the damage by doing some community service—whether that’s helping out at a local school or working at another public facility. We're talking things like landscaping the grounds or even cleaning restrooms. Having zero social skills isn't an excuse for his behavior; if anything, it makes his actions even harder to justify.

Emily Gonzalez51 said:We need to change the law. It isn't some kind of prize to have parents nagging you every single day about a suspension; you wouldn't exactly think he’d be "having fun." If these systems work in Austria and Germany, why can't they work here in America?

The real reward was what he got today—a reprimand and absolutely nothing else. He’s all over the news now and is basically a celebrity. What on earth is going to stop him from doing the exact same thing again?

True, those countries might just have more effective ways of handling these issues... at the end of the day, there should always be consequences...

I agree. These purely bureaucratic pedagogical measures only serve to escalate violence. It eventually leads to even worse behavior in class, ranging from a total lack of respect for teachers to general chaos and laziness. Clearly, this approach isn't working. The real question is whether anyone at the Department of Education has the sense to take concrete action to put a stop to this...

Emily Gonzalez51 said:I work at an American school that uses video surveillance, and despite that, students continue to file complaints. It doesn't stop there—they even vandalize school property. They actually ripped a camera right off the wall, which was the absolute height of stupidity since they were recorded doing it. Apparently, they had no clue the footage was being saved somewhere.☕

It's unbelievable... just pure stupidity. Honestly, I hope they were held financially responsible for the damages. I'm also curious—what happened to the ones caught on camera? Beyond just piles of paperwork, did anything actually happen to them?

I won't go through everyone individually...

This kind of "troublemaker" is 14 years old now. He’ll be heading to high school next year, where he’ll have to decide on his track and focus. I think he’s old enough to fully grasp the consequences of his behavior, even if he doesn't realize how much he’s hurting the people he constantly targets. So, sorry, but I have zero sympathy for a hooligan like this. I'm not interested in worrying about his future path either, because he’s already paved a road straight toward a jail cell. Just listen to the lyrics of Harry Styles' "Sign of the Times"—my dear, someone provokes you, you strike back with a stone, and suddenly you're behind bars. No one asks how old you are. It's as if we're trying to send a message that being under 18 gives you a free pass to commit violence without consequence. And yet, here we are, once again, prioritizing the feelings of such an individual. 🙄

Public school is mandatory, sure, but that doesn't mean there aren't alternatives. For instance, hospital schools exist, and specialized facilities or juvenile detention centers can provide schooling tailored to kids with serious behavioral issues.

Setting aside the inconsistency in how the article was shared, the bottom line is the fact remains: the incident happened. A blow was struck. And it shouldn't have happened! The comedy of this entire situation is seeing people try to shift the blame onto teachers and school staff. As if they could be everywhere at once, watching every single second. It's absurd. Apparently, in this scenario, the aggressor is innocent simply because he's a "product of nature" or poor parenting at home.

By the way, whenever "pedagogical measures" are mentioned, 99.9% of the time—and based on the comments here, this seems to be the case—it all boils down to a single piece of paper containing a reprimand. That's it. One scrap of paper! And we act like it's some life-altering punishment that will reform a student for the rest of their life and prevent them from repeating these mistakes before the consequences become even more severe? Personally, I think these minor disciplinary actions are useless. Unless we start implementing real measures—suspensions, expulsions, or even placement in juvenile facilities—nothing is going to change. Schools will continue to decline until they look like scenes out of an American action movie, complete with metal detectors at every entrance to keep weapons out. I’ll say it again: give me one positive example from your own experience where a kid like this actually changed for the better and went on to lead a productive life. 🤣

I actually really like the suggestion of having security officers stationed within the school. After all, a school is a public institution, just like a courthouse, a police station, or a social services office. Since those places already utilize security, I believe schools—especially given these recent incidents—deserve the same treatment, including video surveillance. Why not even designate a classroom as a "cool-down room"? If a student can't be removed from class immediately, they should be sent there. They clearly aren't going to learn anything during the lesson anyway, so they might as well be somewhere else where they won't disrupt the students who actually showed up to learn and secure their futures. Having a security officer on speed dial would be incredibly helpful, and unlike the teachers, managing that is specifically *their* job.

Today, I found myself caught in a debate about how vocational schools don't offer as many hours of math, physics, or English as traditional prep schools do, implying that students there won't actually learn anything. To which I simply thought, "Are you kidding me?" Year after year, these students sign up for extra tutoring and supplemental classes, but maybe only ten show up at the beginning, and only a handful remain by the end of the process. And then it's the teachers' fault? Or the school's? Or the curriculum's? I'm getting a bit off-topic, but my point is that even after they graduate, these students and college kids will always find someone else to blame for their own lack of effort and chaos in the classroom. I'm not saying there isn't another side to the story—there are definitely bad teachers out there—but it's worth considering... ☕

Nicholas King said:What exactly are you asking? I’m not sure I follow—you didn't even finish the thought. I guess I'll just sit here waiting for the rest of the sentence to actually make sense. I suppose I should get straight to the point—if there even is one. I'm looking for something concrete. Something substantial. I don't have the patience for vague generalities or those half-baked ideas that people seem to throw around these days without a second thought. If we’re going to discuss this, let's actually deal with the facts—real, tangible details—rather than just spinning our wheels in some endless loop of theoretical nonsense. It's exhausting, really. I suppose I should probably address this proposal regarding how we penalize attackers—it’s a subject that seems to spark quite a bit of heated debate around here, isn't it? Honestly, looking at the current situation, I feel like the existing measures are somewhat... lacking, if I'm being completely honest. There really needs to be a more structured approach to how we handle these types of aggressions. It feels like we are constantly reacting to incidents after they've already caused significant damage, rather than having a deterrent in place that actually carries weight. Maybe I'm being too cynical, but it seems to me that without a more rigorous set of consequences—something that actually bites—people will just continue to act without any regard for the rules. We need a system that doesn't just offer a slap on the wrist, but one that imposes actual, measurable accountability. It’s a complex issue, I know, and I’m certainly not claiming to have all the answers, but the status quo feels increasingly insufficient to me. Schools. Honestly, where do we even begin with the state of the American education system? It feels like every time I sit down to think about it, I just end up more frustrated—though, I suppose that’s my default setting at this point. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there seems to be this massive, widening gap between what our students are actually being taught and what they actually need to survive in the real world. It’s a bit of a mess, really—if you can call it that—and I don't mean to sound like I'm just shouting at clouds, but it's hard not to feel this way when you look at the curriculum. We have kids moving through the grades—from the little sixth graders all the way up to the eighth graders—and it feels less like actual learning and more like a frantic race to pass standardized tests that don't mean much in the long run. Maybe I'm being too cynical, but it feels like the entire structure is built around bureaucracy rather than, you know, actual intelligence or critical thinking. There’s a certain lack of depth that’s just... well, it's disappointing. You'd think with all the resources available in this country, we could aim a little higher than just rote memorization and busywork. But instead, we seem stuck in this loop of outdated methods and administrative red tape that stifles any real creativity. It’s a complicated issue—obviously—but it feels like we're failing to prepare the next generation for anything beyond a multiple-choice exam. Just my two cents, I suppose.?

Expulsion via an expedited process, keeping the attacker far away from the victim, juvenile detention centers...

Linda Price5 said:Look, Sarah's dad, would you honestly prefer someone playing hero for this lunatic, or would you rather deal with the reality of him beating your daughter—or any other Sarah—to death in ten years just because she didn't give him a friendly enough smile at the local bakery where they both grabbed breakfast?

Trust me, that guy wouldn't even make it to the next morning alive...

Susan James said:So, what would you suggest instead of these "disciplinary measures"?
If you had a whole toolkit of options at your disposal—or better yet, if you could do whatever you wanted to solve juvenile violence—what would you actually do?
In what way would you go about changing the behavior of a violent kid?

And honestly, why the extreme reaction? Just because there's an attempt to show a shred of humanity toward the "bully," does that automatically mean we have zero empathy for the victim?
What exactly do you mean by that sentence I bolded?😕

Juvenile halls and even prisons are meant to be rehabilitative institutions, so if they can't act normal, they should be sent there to be taught a lesson in cases like this...
As for those paper-thin disciplinary actions, they aren't worth the ink they're printed with...

There are facilities specifically designed to correct or strictly monitor the behavior of violent individuals. We've reached this level of aggression today because nobody reacts, and there's effectively no punishment for this kind of behavior—at least nothing these violent types actually feel.

By the way, that sentence you bolded just means you'd feel differently if it were your own child being attacked by a savage like that... It's easy to talk when it isn't personal, but if it were your kid on the line, I guarantee you'd change your tune regarding those savages pretty quickly...

An 8th grader brutally attacked a 6th grader right in front of the school building

"The school board decided that the student will face disciplinary measures—that was confirmed by Principal Puhalo," 🙂 🙂 🙂

Now I'm just waiting for someone to step up and try to "save" this bully by digging for excuses or searching for some deep-seated trauma to justify his behavior.
But what about the victim? Who is going to protect them from him?

So the attacker gets "punished" 😂 🤣 with mere "disciplinary measures"??? That sends a pretty terrible message to everyone involved... 🙄

Kids start socializing practically from the moment they are born. Parents play the biggest role here—how present they are, whether they actually react to behaviors the child shows toward other kids before preschool even starts, and whether those traits lean toward being anti-social, aggressive, or possessive. By the time a child enters kindergarten, parents have already paved the way for how that child will ultimately behave. There is only a tiny window left where character can truly be reshaped; everything else is just fine-tuning. They might learn to act socially acceptable when the situation demands it, but their true nature will always surface whenever they feel they can get away with it, including later on in high school.

Since there is often a massive gap between theory and reality, we shouldn't expect much from family counseling or child therapy, especially once they hit adolescence. However, you can at least influence how certain behaviors are sanctioned. These kids aren't stupid; they know exactly what might fly with their classmates but won't work with a teacher, and what might pass with a teacher but won't hold up with the principal. If they realize a teacher lacks the actual authority or means to restrain them, nothing will change. I doubt anyone is arrogant enough to argue with someone like a principal, because they know the power lies with them—the principal is the one who signs off on suspensions or expulsions. Usually, everyone behaves themselves in front of the administration, unless the parents are somehow "somebody" in town, in which case anything goes...

It isn’t realistic to expect students who are causing trouble right now to suddenly become model citizens or deeply principled adults in a few years. Besides, anyone who had solid moral values instilled in them during childhood isn't going to wake up one day and decide to go mug someone or commit a crime just because it's Saturday and they're bored. This behavior started long ago, well before elementary school, during those times when parents simply didn't step in. So, regardless of how much people philosophize here, a school relying on mere paperwork is essentially useless. It's like trying to wipe something with sandpaper; it's just not going to work.

That said, if anyone has a positive story, I’d love to hear it. If you knew a student who arrived in first grade as a little wild child but turned into a genuinely kind soul by eighth grade or their senior year of high school, please share. Honestly, my instinct is sometimes just to say, "let someone else deal with them," because dealing with these types is exhausting for everyone involved...

On a brighter note, I have to brag a little. Last week, I spent some time with a group of young men who truly earned their time and attention, and ultimately, the recognition for their hard work. That is the one beautiful side of education—that we can still devote proper attention to the kids who deserve it, rather than just focusing on the problems that seem to dominate every meeting and daily routine...

Emily Gonzalez51 said:I stumbled upon this interesting article regarding the school systems in Finland.

It is perfectly obvious why their education system ranks number one globally; they don't subject their students to the relentless, high-pressure stress found in our American schools.

This is a really solid piece... I’d just highlight one specific part:
"... Furthermore, we cannot expect a high-quality school system that produces happy, fulfilled students if we don't have good, satisfied, well-paid, and respected teachers..."
I think that pretty much sums up the core issue.

It’s funny how people love to complain about veteran professors who have been teaching for decades. But if someone actually suggested giving faculty similar pension benefits to what police officers get, the outcry would start all over again. You’d hear the same old tired arguments about how they aren't even doing any real work anyway...

I’ve tried explaining the reality of working in education to people outside the field, but it feels like a losing battle. It just goes to show that you can't convince someone of a truth they aren't interested in hearing. As the saying goes, "you can't feed a man who claims he isn't hungry."

Susan James said:But how exactly are they tied?
What legal avenues don't they have to act on?
And what kind of "concrete actions" are we talking about here?
Are they not allowed to discipline a kid? 🤔 Because to me, that seems like the only thing they aren't legally permitted to do, and clearly, some people just lack that outlet to exert power. Without it, they seem totally helpless.🙄

But who makes up the system? Is it built by ants or crocodiles? Aren't teachers also part of that very system?
What do you mean by a "subordinate position"?

And honestly, let's be real for a second: not all teachers are saints. Some definitely insult students, some don't know how to teach, and frankly, it doesn't surprise me at all when kids are impossible in class. Sometimes, certain teachers can actually trigger bad behavior, disruptions, or bullying. If a student is acting out in one class, they often become the "problem child" in every other class too—because if other teachers say they *don't* have an issue with that kid, they're suddenly labeled "incompetent." Basically, the kid gets turned into the "problem" just to protect an ineffective teacher.
Do you really think that doesn't happen?
You've got it all wrong.🤷

What are the actual sanctions for a professor who insults a student? (It's hardly surprising they're afraid of cell phone videos and parent complaints; I'd bet anything that the ones who are actually respectful to kids and colleagues don't have those fears.)
Do they have any accountability for not knowing how to talk to kids? For lacking active listening skills, using "I" statements, or just basic politeness? They should realize they are role models for children, just like parents or even celebrities like Madonna. But instead, it happens that when a kid picks up bad habits, it's blamed on the parents or a pop star, while the teacher who taught them the wrong way gets a pass.😂 LOL:
Poor little subordinates.🙄

First off, go read post 153 by Anne st-zg... it's actually quite insightful...

For instance, a student litters in class. You tell them to pick it up, and they snap back that there are janitors for that. There isn't a specific legal mandate forcing that student to clean up after themselves.
Or a student talks back, defies the principal, refuses to leave, and starts swearing, making it impossible to continue the lesson while another student has to run to find administration.
Then there's the news story where a student accuses a teacher of "touching" them just because the teacher wouldn't give them the grade they wanted. The teacher ends up being dragged through the press and having their reputation ruined, regardless of whether the accusation is a total lie. There are zero consequences for false accusations.
And honestly, why are you getting so worked up about physical discipline? Did you have a rough childhood or something? Well, if so, feel free to go sue every teacher who ever laid a hand on you—that's how things work nowadays.

Susan James said:But how exactly are they tied?
What legal avenues don't they have to act on?
And what kind of "concrete actions" are we talking about here?
Are they not allowed to discipline a kid? 🤔 Because to me, that seems like the only thing they aren't legally permitted to do, and clearly, some people just lack that outlet to exert power. Without it, they seem totally helpless.🙄

But who makes up the system? Is it built by ants or crocodiles? Aren't teachers also part of that very system?
What do you mean by a "subordinate position"?

And honestly, let's be real for a second: not all teachers are saints. Some definitely insult students, some don't know how to teach, and frankly, it doesn't surprise me at all when kids are impossible in class. Sometimes, certain teachers can actually trigger bad behavior, disruptions, or bullying. If a student is acting out in one class, they often become the "problem child" in every other class too—because if other teachers say they *don't* have an issue with that kid, they're suddenly labeled "incompetent." Basically, the kid gets turned into the "problem" just to protect an ineffective teacher.
Do you really think that doesn't happen?
You've got it all wrong.🤷

What are the actual sanctions for a professor who insults a student? (It's hardly surprising they're afraid of cell phone videos and parent complaints; I'd bet anything that the ones who are actually respectful to kids and colleagues don't have those fears.)
Do they have any accountability for not knowing how to talk to kids? For lacking active listening skills, using "I" statements, or just basic politeness? They should realize they are role models for children, just like parents or even celebrities like Madonna. But instead, it happens that when a kid picks up bad habits, it's blamed on the parents or a pop star, while the teacher who taught them the wrong way gets a pass.😂 LOL:
Poor little subordinates.🙄

If you're part of the system too, then go ahead and lower gas prices by a few bucks at the pump... let us know when you've made progress.🙄

Susan James said:But how exactly are they tied?
What legal avenues don't they have to act on?
And what kind of "concrete actions" are we talking about here?
Are they not allowed to discipline a kid? 🤔 Because to me, that seems like the only thing they aren't legally permitted to do, and clearly, some people just lack that outlet to exert power. Without it, they seem totally helpless.🙄

But who makes up the system? Is it built by ants or crocodiles? Aren't teachers also part of that very system?
What do you mean by a "subordinate position"?

And honestly, let's be real for a second: not all teachers are saints. Some definitely insult students, some don't know how to teach, and frankly, it doesn't surprise me at all when kids are impossible in class. Sometimes, certain teachers can actually trigger bad behavior, disruptions, or bullying. If a student is acting out in one class, they often become the "problem child" in every other class too—because if other teachers say they *don't* have an issue with that kid, they're suddenly labeled "incompetent." Basically, the kid gets turned into the "problem" just to protect an ineffective teacher.
Do you really think that doesn't happen?
You've got it all wrong.🤷

What are the actual sanctions for a professor who insults a student? (It's hardly surprising they're afraid of cell phone videos and parent complaints; I'd bet anything that the ones who are actually respectful to kids and colleagues don't have those fears.)
Do they have any accountability for not knowing how to talk to kids? For lacking active listening skills, using "I" statements, or just basic politeness? They should realize they are role models for children, just like parents or even celebrities like Madonna. But instead, it happens that when a kid picks up bad habits, it's blamed on the parents or a pop star, while the teacher who taught them the wrong way gets a pass.😂 LOL:
Poor little subordinates.🙄

Right... ☕
I guess it's the wife's fault if her husband gets violent because she didn't cook dinner exactly how he liked it and he was feeling stressed...
Or maybe it's the woman's fault for wearing a short skirt, so naturally, some attacker thinks it's an invitation...
But I won't keep making comparisons; you'll just say it's irrelevant... except that these are excuses used when there shouldn't be any excuses at all.

Susan James said:But how exactly are they tied?
What legal avenues don't they have to act on?
And what kind of "concrete actions" are we talking about here?
Are they not allowed to discipline a kid? 🤔 Because to me, that seems like the only thing they aren't legally permitted to do, and clearly, some people just lack that outlet to exert power. Without it, they seem totally helpless.🙄

But who makes up the system? Is it built by ants or crocodiles? Aren't teachers also part of that very system?
What do you mean by a "subordinate position"?

And honestly, let's be real for a second: not all teachers are saints. Some definitely insult students, some don't know how to teach, and frankly, it doesn't surprise me at all when kids are impossible in class. Sometimes, certain teachers can actually trigger bad behavior, disruptions, or bullying. If a student is acting out in one class, they often become the "problem child" in every other class too—because if other teachers say they *don't* have an issue with that kid, they're suddenly labeled "incompetent." Basically, the kid gets turned into the "problem" just to protect an ineffective teacher.
Do you really think that doesn't happen?
You've got it all wrong.🤷

What are the actual sanctions for a professor who insults a student? (It's hardly surprising they're afraid of cell phone videos and parent complaints; I'd bet anything that the ones who are actually respectful to kids and colleagues don't have those fears.)
Do they have any accountability for not knowing how to talk to kids? For lacking active listening skills, using "I" statements, or just basic politeness? They should realize they are role models for children, just like parents or even celebrities like Madonna. But instead, it happens that when a kid picks up bad habits, it's blamed on the parents or a pop star, while the teacher who taught them the wrong way gets a pass.😂 LOL:
Poor little subordinates.🙄

Aha... what do you mean 99%? It's more like 99.999999%... ☕
Given how you talk about teachers, you really ought to be thrown to the wolves. Since you're so good at this barroom philosophy, why don't you try putting it into practice?

Susan James said:1. A parent who is struggling personally isn't going to make that happen. If someone is dealing with alcoholism at home, how can they be expected to instill discipline or study habits? Or if a parent is never around because they're working three jobs, how is that supposed to work?

2. How can we expect a parent who is completely overwhelmed by their own life struggles to sit down and have deep conversations about schoolwork and learning? Does that parent even have the mental bandwidth for it? And besides, who is going to teach the parents how to communicate effectively with their kids? Your example is just one in a million.
I honestly think *how* you talk to them matters more than the specific topic.
The real issue is that there’s no guidance for parents. Everyone is looking for an instant fix—something they can solve by tomorrow—but this is a long-term process that can take years.

3. You seem to think having neat notebooks is a prerequisite for staying focused in class or being a well-behaved student, but how does tidying up a notebook actually achieve that?
What is a parent supposed to do with a son who doesn't write anything down during class at all?

And do you really think straight-A students can't be troublemakers too? I've had totally different experiences with that. They absolutely can be, but then teachers often don't know how to handle them, which sends a message not just to the top students, but to the whole class.
Of course, one of those messages is: "At this school, the only thing that matters is academic performance..."
And that brings us back to the big question: Is school meant to be a place for holistic development, or is it strictly just for academics? 🙂

The relevant authorities want to bridge the gap between education and socialization, but they can't even get on the same page themselves. How else can you describe a teacher's workload? They are obsessively required to track every single minute, every grade, every comma, every rubric entry, meeting quotas, scheduling exams, announcing tests, and so on. It’s pure bureaucracy. We have this rigid academic system that breaks under the weight of its own rules, yet teachers are held solely responsible for every single oversight.
How are you supposed to balance all that red tape, the need to maintain classroom order, and actually teaching the material, while also finding time for the "socialization" component? I know from experience that when things get hectic, management only cares if you hit your metrics. There’s zero empathy for the fact that you spent thirty minutes helping a student who was disrupting the class. All they see is that you were "working" for the full hour—to exaggerate, maybe you were just explaining 2x2=4 when you were actually supposed to be covering the entire multiplication table.
No matter how you slice it, the teacher is always wrong. Either they aren't efficient enough, or they aren't spending enough time with the kids who need it most. 🤷

Jessica Howard5 said:Interesting theory. 🤣 But what would that actually prove? That parents who act like experts over coffee would be totally lost if you actually put them in front of a chalkboard? Of course they would. They aren't trained educators. Most of them would fail miserably. So what, we're just supposed to stay quiet? Bite our tongues while kids struggle through a broken system and let the school take the fall for everything?
What happens when an individual teacher fails? What happens when the school administration fails to solve a problem? What happens when parents fail at home, and then the school fails too? Should the rest of us just sit there and suffer in silence while the kids deal with the fallout? I don't get why teachers can't handle even the slightest criticism. Why is it such a massive deal to say the education system isn't working? Even the teachers themselves see it's failing; they talk about it constantly, yet they do absolutely nothing to change it. 🙂

No, I honestly believe that any parent could manage the actual curriculum themselves if they really tried—it’s not exactly rocket science. In my view, parents would fail most spectacularly in the very area where they complain about teachers the most: "parenting." That isn't the school's responsibility, and frankly, no teacher training program in the country can fix how a child behaves at home or solve classroom dynamics through sheer pedagogy. Teachers are essentially working with their hands tied behind their backs. As I’ve said before, no matter how much effort they put in, there simply aren't the legal avenues to take decisive action. If they try to push too hard, all they end up doing is provoking the wrath of parents and students. They end up creating problems for themselves that a teacher earning a high salary truly doesn't need—only to be criticized by everyone the following day.
There are plenty of other reasons why that extra week matters for teachers. It’s a chance for people to finally see and realize that our job isn't just about those few hours spent standing in front of a classroom. Our actual working hours are significantly longer. And let’s be honest—we aren't exactly getting paid for the Saturdays and Sundays we spend grading exams or drafting new ones. Then there's the lesson planning. Believe me, you don't just plan for a subject; you plan for the specific class. You could teach the exact same course, in the same department, to the same grade level just one year later, and the experience will be night and day. One group gets it all right away—they're brilliant—but the next generation might struggle with absolutely nothing. Same professor, same teaching style, yet a completely different result. So, what then?

Jessica Howard5 said:Interesting theory. 🤣 But what would that actually prove? That parents who act like experts over coffee would be totally lost if you actually put them in front of a chalkboard? Of course they would. They aren't trained educators. Most of them would fail miserably. So what, we're just supposed to stay quiet? Bite our tongues while kids struggle through a broken system and let the school take the fall for everything?
What happens when an individual teacher fails? What happens when the school administration fails to solve a problem? What happens when parents fail at home, and then the school fails too? Should the rest of us just sit there and suffer in silence while the kids deal with the fallout? I don't get why teachers can't handle even the slightest criticism. Why is it such a massive deal to say the education system isn't working? Even the teachers themselves see it's failing; they talk about it constantly, yet they do absolutely nothing to change it. 🙂

Honestly, my heart goes out most to the kids who are genuinely good—the ones who are smart, eager to learn, and hungry for more than what the standard curriculum offers. They rarely get any recognition unless they’re winning some big competition. Instead, they become the default scapegoats for everything. When there are systemic issues, when teachers are quitting in droves, when the curriculum falls behind, or when the classroom turns into chaos, these students always end up catching the fallout. As someone else pointed out, it’s incredibly rare for a straight-A student to actually have behavioral issues. Yet, somehow, the teachers end up resenting the kids who are just struggling to keep their heads above water. It’s unfair, and it unfairly colors how both the students and their parents are perceived. But even beyond grades, there are those quiet, polite kids who might not grasp every concept immediately but are perfectly well-behaved. Their calm nature often gives the troublemakers an opening to act out. I really believe the responsibility lies with the teachers here. A teacher is expected to deliver complex material, maintain discipline, and somehow find individual time for every single student to address their personal struggles at school or home. You couldn't pull that off if you were Superman, let alone in a forty-five-minute period. Maybe some people won't get where I'm coming from—I know many of you are dealing with elementary schoolers—but I'm talking about high school. These are teenagers between 14 and 19 years old. We can't dismiss them as being "childish" or incapable of understanding that certain behaviors simply aren't acceptable in a classroom.
The education system is broken, honestly. But I don't blame teachers as individuals; the fault lies with a system that has stripped them of authority, placing them in a subordinate position compared to their students. I completely understand why some choose to just stay out of it and do the bare minimum. They know ahead of time that if they try to address a student's behavior or grading issues, they’ll be the ones labeled as the problem instead of the kid. What's the point? Until the laws and regulations regarding student rights and obligations are overhauled—so that we can actually take action against problematic behavior—it is utterly pointless to blame teachers for how a student acts in class. A student's behavior is a direct reflection of their upbringing at home. Any homeroom teacher will tell you that once you get to know both the parents and the child, the connection becomes obvious. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, whether that's for better or worse.

Hmm, regarding how teachers react—let's look at the bigger picture. Gas prices go up, and truck drivers don't protest; milk prices spike, and people don't react; sales tax increases, and there's silence. Actually, I'd say people *do* try to react, but their voices are ignored, much like certain posts on this thread. The government simply refuses to hear anything that doesn't suit its agenda. It's the same with the Department of Education; they don't want to admit when things are failing, and when individuals write open letters, they rarely receive a response. Nothing ever changes.

At the end of the day, Jessica Howard5, as much as I understand that you are fighting against violent students in your school and organizing parents, what have you actually managed to achieve? That is exactly what teachers face when they try to make a difference. You feel like nobody in the school is doing anything, while teachers feel like the people at the federal level haven't even stepped foot in a classroom to see the reality of the situation.

I honestly believe most parents who barely interact with the school—only checking in when things go sideways—rely on coffee shop gossip rather than actual facts. They really need to rethink how they view both the educational system and their own kids' roles within it. Since these parents act like experts on how to handle discipline, how to "collaborate" during class, or how to be the perfect "friend" to their child, maybe it’s time for a reality check. I think a "Parent-Teacher Day" program would be an eye-opener. Let them step in for a day, a week, or even longer to demonstrate those "exceptional skills." But there’s one catch: they shouldn't get a class they already know or have influenced. If we gave them a group of students they haven't already "trained," they’d basically just be a substitute teacher. Then we’d see how much they actually know... ☕

Now a whole mob of followers is rallying around one truly problematic student, which makes the entire situation much worse...

rowdypanther12 said:No, you’re describing that old-school, rigid approach where the teacher is basically an absolute authority figure—law, god, and corporal punishment all rolled into one—leaving kids trembling in fear. It sounds like something out of a school from the early 1900s, complete with rulers used for discipline.
I believe the relationship in a classroom should be a partnership built on mutual respect, rather than being rooted in fear.
That said, I also think there have to be actual consequences for breaking rules, provided the students clearly understand what those rules are.
And I don't mean vague threats like, "You won't find a job later in life if you don't get better grades," but rather consequences that happen right then and there.

No, I’m actually advocating for a strict approach when it comes to students whose behavior warrants it. For those who understand where the line is drawn, however, maintaining a collaborative partnership—both with the students themselves and their parents—isn't just possible; it's exactly what we do.

Look, everyone agrees that breaking the rules should carry consequences, but the moment you ask what those actually look like, people freeze. They have no clue. It’s funny how things change; back when I was a kid, getting sent to the principal's office was a genuine mark of shame. Now? People just laugh it off. Even disciplinary measures feel different. To be honest, I don't recall anyone from my generation ever being truly disciplined or even expelled. Back then, issues were handled on the spot, right then and there. You dealt with it immediately instead of waiting for a mountain of paperwork to move through some bureaucratic system. Nowadays, these "reprimands" are handed out by the dozens, sometimes hundreds, all in a single year. It just doesn't hold any weight anymore.

Nicholas King said:The constant obsession with comparing schools to the military 🤦, along with your rather blatant advocacy for corporal punishment (which, by the way, is illegal under this PDF), essentially kills any chance of having a meaningful conversation with you.

Goodbye.

We can finally move forward once people like you suggest a concrete measure that is actually enforceable—something that effectively prevents these incidents from happening again. But since you don't have a solution, and instead are just advocating for letting the bullying of other kids continue just so we can "save" one pathetic aggressor, I can only come to two conclusions: either this kid was a problem back in elementary school, or he’s just following in his family's footsteps. ☕

Jessica Howard5 said:I’ve got no clue what methods a school should use to shut down misbehavior, but I know one thing for sure. Back when I was in school—the exact same school I'm talking about now—all they had on staff was a full-time psychologist and a principal. Despite that, there were zero issues in the classroom. And believe me, we had kids in eighth grade already getting recruited for the military. Some of them were barely four years younger than their young teachers. Yet, authority still existed. There was a clear system of warnings and disciplinary actions. You went from a teacher's warning to being threatened with expulsion. Expulsion meant "one more mistake and you're out," and that actually happened. Formal reprimands were read aloud at the end of every quarter via a bulletin posted in the classrooms. Back then, no sane kid would ever dream of siding with the troublemakers. You had authority at home and authority at school. Now? It's total shit.
Our school psychologist had this specific move: during long breaks, she’d pull five or six troublemakers into her office. She’d make them answer questions, draw something, or just talk to her while the rest of us "normal kids" enjoyed a peaceful break. Also, God help you if you acted out during class; the teacher would send you straight to the principal's office, which was a nightmare for whoever got sent. It was basically brainwashing, followed by a formal note sent home to parents. That’s how we handled bullshit back then. Can schools even do that anymore?

Not only can schools still do that today, they actually do—it's just that it doesn't have any impact on behavior anymore. Kids find it all hilarious now. Honestly, it’s almost tragicomic to me. I'm writing this to you as a stranger, but my dear friend, in plain English: keep doing exactly what you're doing. Today, those warnings and reprimands basically translate to "keep acting out, we don't care."

Jessica Howard5 said:Yeah, you're right. When I look back at my own youth and see those people, you can see the results in the next generation. You see the direct influence of how their parents acted back then on how their kids behave now. But back then, schools actually had authority; they handled disciplinary issues much more effectively than they do today. Now? It's nowhere near as efficient. I don't know if the issue is just that the staff has changed—younger generations coming in with different training. Kids are mostly the same on average. Sure, parents and home life are key. But what about the school? If the school washes its hands of discipline and stops trying to maintain order in classrooms and hallways, what's left? What about the rest of the decent kids attending class? A small minority starts terrorizing the majority. I mean that regarding both the parents and their problematic kids. Some refuse to face the fact that their kid is a nightmare at school because they act like an angel at home. Others won't accept that their kids need extra guidance or refuse to listen to helpful suggestions. So what? Do we just let them keep terrorizing everyone until they finish middle school? I have to wonder if the school even has the knowledge, the authority, the legal tools, or—if they actually wanted to—the will to make the school a decent place for all students to be. Regardless of what happens at home.

Well, looking at some of these forums, it really does seem like a tiny minority can hold the majority hostage, ruining classes with their behavior and making kids feel anxious or sick to their stomachs just thinking about coming to school because they don't know what the bully will do next.
Of course, the moment you speak plainly and honestly—saying that these aggressive kids need specialized classrooms or specific interventions—you suddenly become the villain.
As for the schools, they have plenty of ways to file paperwork, hold meetings, and go through endless bureaucracy. Technically, a Principal has the power to expel problematic students, but they rarely have the heart or the drive to actually do it. And as for a peaceful coexistence between teachers and a mix of good and bad students? Guess what, that's a total fairy tale.

To be honest, nobody seems to respond to the parents here who actually have children being victimized by these bullies. It feels like it's being ignored. These kids don't just want to learn; they want peace and cooperation. Instead, there seems to be this persistent effort to protect the aggressors.

Good grief, rowdypanther12, there’s really no point in arguing with you... I’m pointing out the extreme outcomes, but those extremes only happen when people stubbornly ignore a whole string of smaller issues along the way...

rowdypanther12 said:Are you actually suggesting that the military shouldn't be a training ground for abusing subordinates?
This feels like that debate over corporal punishment taken to an extreme—if you're totally against it, you might as well let a kid climb on the ceiling and crap on everyone's heads.

What I'm saying is that school is becoming the one place where a functional hierarchy simply doesn't exist anymore...
If you walk into a courtroom wearing shorts, they won't even let you in. But walk into a school? These kids run the show.
Try to speak up during a debate, and you get one warning before being sent to detention overnight. Walk into a school, and you can't even get a word in edgewise...
In the military, rank is clearly defined and you know exactly how to address a superior. In a school, it’s a free-for-all. Nowadays, kids act like we're all just part of some big, equalist herd rather than students in an educational institution...
Take what happened a few days ago. Students from the high school next door were mowing grass inside our school's perimeter. When the faculty head asked them to move outside the line, they basically told her it was none of her business and said she should call 911 if she had a problem. Such arrogance and pure disrespect—and this is over things that are still illegal and could lead to actual criminal charges. But no, they have no fear, no shame, nothing. It's tragic, really. I truly feel for those kids, honestly...

Jason Ortiz5 said:Since you're bringing up American laws, do you actually know how many people get wrongfully convicted over there, only to be proven innocent years later? That's just one example of how "reliable" the US legal system can be. Plus, you've got six-year-olds being charged with sexual abuse stuff, or parents losing their kids because some creep misinterprets a totally normal family photo as something predatory. It’s a country where someone’s entire life and career can be trashed just because they told a coworker she looks good in her new haircut. You really sure you want to use their justice system as your gold standard?

And what's even the point of just throwing punishment at people without any actual rehab or guidance? Is the goal just to let someone serve time only for them to come out and do something even worse? Honestly, behind every kid acting out, there’s usually a parent who dropped the ball somewhere along the line. Are we going to punish the kids and then what? Send the parents to jail too?

If getting a little slap on the wrist was enough to mess you up, then you're honestly just super fragile, and clearly didn't learn a thing from it... I mean, even after being warned, you or others in the class just kept right on going...

Having a bit of trouble with reading comprehension? I made it very clear that back then, whoever was closest to the situation got caught, not necessarily the person who actually did it. If you think there's any educational value in that, I'll just stop commenting before I get roasted. ☕

Fast forward to America... our little land of milk and honey. It’s not like nobody gets wrongly convicted here, right? Actually, you might have a point. In our system, murderers, rapists, and thieves often walk out of court receiving praise and recognition for their "contributions"—and it works by design. The bigger and more powerful you are, the more accolades you get while the actual punishment remains non-existent. Honestly, the harshest sentence we probably see is given to a thief who steals a loaf of bread just to feed his family.
I wonder at what exact age a child becomes responsible for their own actions? You claim that in America, kids are taken away for the most minor reasons, but here, it seems like they’re only taken away for how they were raised? Actually, it usually happens in families facing real issues, like domestic violence or alcoholism. Even then, authorities often hesitate to step in unless parents are actively trying to care for their children (you see examples of teen parents fighting for their kids, running from social services, and hiding just to get support). Unlike the US, in America, bosses and colleagues tend to kiss each other's asses and engage in workplace bullying where no one intervenes. The victim ends up looking like the fool and is eventually forced to find a new job. Are you truly satisfied with the American legal system—or rather, its enforcement? Because the laws themselves aren't necessarily bad; it's just that they aren't applied.

Jason Ortiz5 said:Since you're bringing up American laws, do you actually know how many people get wrongfully convicted over there, only to be proven innocent years later? That's just one example of how "reliable" the US legal system can be. Plus, you've got six-year-olds being charged with sexual abuse stuff, or parents losing their kids because some creep misinterprets a totally normal family photo as something predatory. It’s a country where someone’s entire life and career can be trashed just because they told a coworker she looks good in her new haircut. You really sure you want to use their justice system as your gold standard?

And what's even the point of just throwing punishment at people without any actual rehab or guidance? Is the goal just to let someone serve time only for them to come out and do something even worse? Honestly, behind every kid acting out, there’s usually a parent who dropped the ball somewhere along the line. Are we going to punish the kids and then what? Send the parents to jail too?

If getting a little slap on the wrist was enough to mess you up, then you're honestly just super fragile, and clearly didn't learn a thing from it... I mean, even after being warned, you or others in the class just kept right on going...

Having a bit of trouble with reading comprehension? I made it very clear that back then, whoever was closest to the situation got caught, not necessarily the person who actually did it. If you think there's any educational value in that, I'll just stop commenting before I get roasted. ☕

The purpose is to free the victims of that violence and the perpetrators from living in constant fear. It sounds like the aggressor is the victim in this scenario??? Fine, then who is going to speak up for the actual victims? A colleague pointed me toward this documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1g9RV9OKhg so let's see who the real victim is. Who is going to stand on the side of those children? As someone once wisely said, it's easy to philosophize, but it's a different story when someone tries to terrorize their own child. Perpetrators need to be punished first, and *then* rehabilitated. Without consequences, they don't realize their behavior matters, and we end up sending them the message that what they did was perfectly fine...

Jason Ortiz5 said:Since you're bringing up American laws, do you actually know how many people get wrongfully convicted over there, only to be proven innocent years later? That's just one example of how "reliable" the US legal system can be. Plus, you've got six-year-olds being charged with sexual abuse stuff, or parents losing their kids because some creep misinterprets a totally normal family photo as something predatory. It’s a country where someone’s entire life and career can be trashed just because they told a coworker she looks good in her new haircut. You really sure you want to use their justice system as your gold standard?

And what's even the point of just throwing punishment at people without any actual rehab or guidance? Is the goal just to let someone serve time only for them to come out and do something even worse? Honestly, behind every kid acting out, there’s usually a parent who dropped the ball somewhere along the line. Are we going to punish the kids and then what? Send the parents to jail too?

If getting a little slap on the wrist was enough to mess you up, then you're honestly just super fragile, and clearly didn't learn a thing from it... I mean, even after being warned, you or others in the class just kept right on going...

Having a bit of trouble with reading comprehension? I made it very clear that back then, whoever was closest to the situation got caught, not necessarily the person who actually did it. If you think there's any educational value in that, I'll just stop commenting before I get roasted. ☕

Well, that sounds lovely... we used to be rewarded based on our merit... ☕

Nicholas King said:That’s just not true.

...and zero responsibilities

Again, incorrect.

back in the day, if you caused trouble or were disrespectful, you'd get a ruler or a switch across the knuckles
(...)
the kids who got their butts kicked—whose parents were called in—would already be showing red marks from the switch by that very evening.

Maybe try relaxing just a little bit instead of suggesting physical punishment is the answer to every single problem.

Prove me wrong... and I don't mean show me some paperwork...
It wasn't about violence. Otherwise, would you claim that men going into the military were being abused rather than disciplined when they had to scrub a floor for the fifth time? Nowadays, students in American schools are so "protected" that someone can practically spit in your face without any consequences. You might choose to turn the other cheek, but I certainly won't. That kind of behavior in an American classroom is unacceptable. At the end of the day, there are still final exams that serve as a proper consequence for such conduct. If you can't behave in class, you can start worrying about your future academic prospects.

Jason Ortiz5 said:Someone please pinch me because I honestly can’t believe what I just read... Seriously, you just compared kids whispering in class to actually trampling two girls. 🤦 Look, I grew up in that generation where getting a smack or a heavy-handed lecture from a teacher was just part of the deal. And surprise, surprise—those "punishments" weren't exactly fair or balanced; they were basically just outlets for some angry teachers to blow off steam. You know how it went? A teacher would hear us talking—not counting the fact that she was gossiping outside the classroom herself—and she’d storm in like a whirlwind, charging between the desks to grab whoever she could or give someone a humiliating timeout. And no, I’m not traumatized or anything, I just learned what a medical diagnosis looked like at a very young age. ☕ It’s funny, though, because the most disciplined classrooms always belonged to the professors who barely ever raised their voices. They clearly had much better ways of handling things.

I’m not saying we shouldn't have consequences. But a punishment needs to actually mean something. It should be about teaching a lesson, not just a way for someone to flex their power and show everyone who's boss.

It wasn't a comparison, by the way...
Read with some comprehension... What "whispering in class" are you even talking about? My point was comparing them to violent students. If they are old enough to terrorize everyone around them, both physically and psychologically, then they are adults in my eyes. If they are capable of doing something like that, they are old enough to face the consequences. How long do you think we should keep "helping" aggressors? Until one day they push a victim in front of a truck? Is that when the bully and their parents will say, "Oh, they were just playing"?

If those kinds of "punishments"—like getting your hand flicked or whatever—actually affected you, then you're incredibly fragile, because clearly you learned nothing from it. In fact, even after being warned, you or your classmates just kept going. Sorry, but demonstrating force is part of our everyday reality; the strong push the weak, and right now, everything feels upside down. Do I need to Google articles about students hitting teachers or attacking their peers for you? Are you suggesting that's acceptable? And the parents? They’re stuck. If the victim's parents step in, they're the ones who end up getting reported, while the bully just keeps going because nobody can stop them. For how long? Sorry, but punishment has to be more than just a piece of paper. It needs real consequences. If that means suspension, or even losing a school year, why not? Do it five times if necessary! At least then they won't be able to terrorize everyone else anymore.

The current state of our schools is a mess because kids today have all the rights but zero responsibilities. There isn’t a single way to enforce discipline without triggering a massive public outcry or a wave of condemnation. I remember when I was in elementary school; there was actually a sense of order back then. Respect was expected. We wore uniforms, and if you were messy or disobedient, you might get a quick correction with a ruler or a flick to the fingers—not even for major offenses, just for things like whispering in class or neglecting your duties. For more serious issues, students were simply suspended. Parents would show up at the principal's office red-faced with shame, and by that evening, the kids were already feeling the sting of discipline at home. People call that system flawed, and sure, maybe it was, but it was incredibly efficient and decisive. Honestly, I'm sick of hearing about "children's rights," child advocates, and all this endless talk about protecting them. Legally, adulthood starts at 18, but it shouldn't feel like they magically transform overnight. If someone is capable of committing crimes, terrorizing those around them, or repeatedly disrespecting everyone in their orbit, then they aren't socialized, and the rest of society shouldn't have to suffer for it. Take that case where a 16-year-old picks up two girls in a high-powered BMW in downtown Miami; most people would want to see him face real consequences, and frankly, they'd be right! But no, he’s "just a kid," and his reward is getting sent off to a fancy boarding school in Switzerland. That is the exact message our education and legal systems are sending. This behavior is being taught from a young age. These kids face absolutely no repercussions for how they act, whether at school or at home. In fact, parents often reward them with iPhones or cars instead of holding them accountable for their actions.
Anyone who thinks we can save these children using the current methods is delusional. And let me ask you: who is going to protect the truly innocent victims from these bullies? I recall a case where "blood is thicker than water"—where an aggressor, with full parental support, was terrorizing a young girl while the authorities did absolutely nothing. It ended with the girl's father stepping in to defend her, only for him to be the one reported to the police while the bully just laughs in his face. Unfortunately, that seems to be daily life now. These unadjusted individuals are protected like endangered species. It feels like the only solution left is for the victims to take matters into their own hands—to gang up and settle it with a baseball bat. Since they're "just kids," nobody gets in trouble, and the bully gets a few months off before returning to school to torment someone else. Sorry, I know I’ll get torn apart for suggesting a scenario like that, but what other choice do these victims have? Parents aren't allowed to defend them, and schools either can't or won't act.
As long as things stay this way, our entire society will continue to decline. Someone mentioned Austria earlier, but it's the same in Germany, where teachers are treated with actual respect. Here, they are insulted, reassigned to random districts, or harassed by inspectors if they don't cater to every single whim of these "kids"—who, let's be honest, are old enough to know better by now.

Linda Price5 said:If we’re okay with incompetence in the police force, why shouldn't we be okay with teachers who don't actually know their subject matter? Is it acceptable for people teaching computer science to barely understand what a desktop computer even is?😁

Of course this is an issue, especially when we are talking about computer science and IT-related subjects. I don't want to offend those who graduated from education programs, but despite having a degree in information technology, many of them lack any real practical connection to the field. You can see it immediately in how they handle basic software like Microsoft Office, let alone teaching complex concepts in high school. On the other hand, look at the motivation levels. A computer science teacher or a tech instructor isn't given the same incentive compared to other professors, even though they have to stay current with constant updates. For them, learning never stops; you can't just walk into a classroom and coast until retirement. Compare that to math, physics, or English. In those subjects, the core curriculum hasn't fundamentally shifted in decades—not even centuries. Books exist in every possible format, and lesson plans are readily available whenever needed. Tech is a different beast entirely.
Buying computers usually just means more work on your plate. You have to deal with constant troubleshooting, system maintenance, and endless technical support. It’s a lot of extra labor that nobody actually wants to pay for, yet everyone expects you to just handle it.
The bottom line here comes down to market value. Most tech professionals are going to choose private sector roles where they actually get paid what they’re worth, rather than taking positions in public schools where their skills are constantly undervalued. As the national economy improves, this gap is only going to widen because nobody with this specific skillset wants to work in a classroom. We shouldn't be shocked when we find ourselves in a situation where computer science is being taught by someone who doesn't even understand how a basic desktop functions. So, let me ask you: how much are you actually willing to pay for someone who truly knows what they're doing?

Actually, @buditedobro, I couldn't agree more. Signed. 🙏