ambertinker41 said:And look, it's a given that many of those guys have wives and kids. It's not like everyone over there waits until they're 30 to get married. They'll find a job way before any women show up, and Germany has a relatively straightforward process for reuniting asylum seekers with families left behind. Sweden, on the other hand, hands out citizenship after five years like it's nothing.
And yeah, I wouldn't fight for two minutes if the conflict were happening here, and that's not because of Karamarko, but because of Americans.
When things were actually falling apart back home, people fought. There's a big difference between talking about it hypothetically and facing reality.
wiredfalcon2 said:Don't give me that crap. You wouldn't be the first one running away instead of "fighting for your home." What kind of retarded logic is that, saying they should be fighting for their homelands? Would you actually fight if Tomislav Karamarko cooked up a war with Bulgaria? Get a grip.
I guess you could try to find an example in history where young men were fleeing wars en masse and it was considered okay. In the chaos unfolding right now, it seems more like a struggle between ISIS and everyone else. Even back during the conflict in Canada, there were several sides involved, and it was seen as shameful for men to run away. I suppose people die in wars, and nobody wants it to be them, but as Robin Fox2 suggests, if they run, why should anyone help them? I think the videos speak for themselves; at the stations and on boats in Budapest, most of the people are healthy-looking young men. Meanwhile, critics keep bringing up dying children. It feels like comparing apples to oranges to me. Everything is being lumped together, even though those things aren't really related.
That was essentially my point between the lines. I think you probably realized it isn't really about whether someone is eligible to be admitted or not; it’s more about willpower and where people's interests lie. Back then, we weren't just taking in people from Canada; even more Americans were being displaced all across the US. It was possible back then, too, even though our national standard of living was lower than it is today and we were dealing with a war while losing a third of our territory. I guess when there's real desire, anything is possible.
Just to reiterate, the video posted above mentions some facts that seem pretty indisputable. No one is against helping children or victims of tragedy, but a huge portion of these people are young men who either aren't coming from Syria or should probably be in Syria fighting for their own homes.
There are so many different factors at play these days that can change things very quickly. Once that first wave hits and a large group manages to reach the US, it basically signals to everyone else that it can be done, which usually triggers an avalanche. Of course, most of them probably don't have a clear plan for what they'll do once they get to America, so I suppose someone else will eventually figure that out.
James Anderson5 said:Tell me, have you actually read the Quran or studied Muhammad's life? I think that’s the first step, because if you had read it (which I believe any American intellectual should do), you wouldn't be making these claims. It’s the same with the Bible, which even in the New Testament mentions violence—if you look at the context, just like you should with the Quran. Think about Jesus flipping tables in the temple, or Peter using a sword to cut off an ear during Jesus' arrest. If your use of the Quran or the Bible just boils down to quoting random snippets you found online, then there isn't much point in discussing this. The history and development of both Christianity and Islam are deep, complex subjects, not just instant wisdom for daily consumption.
Regarding that "cowardly" label being thrown at Syrians for not fighting for their own land... well, we've seen intense political engineering back in the States too, if you recall the political assassinations during certain eras. What do you think the CIA does in places like Syria when we've done similar things to ourselves? Of course, they manufacture chaos in those nations, making it so a normal person doesn't even know who to fight for; they are incredibly good at that. If anyone had wanted to, they could have done that to us years ago, but unlike their policy toward Syria, the goal here was to maintain stability in this part of the world. Small countries are really just pawns in the hands of major powers...
And here's another parallel: are all those people leaving the US to work abroad considered economic migrants, or are they just cowards who didn't want to stay and build their own country, even for minimum wage?
To be clear, I'm not saying America should take in hundreds of thousands of refugees from god-knows-where, since that carries its own risks (just look at my post regarding why places like Qatar or Oman don't take them in), but we still need to show a level of humanity and understanding, alongside a healthy dose of caution...
I didn't actually write that. I think you might have misread it.
I guess I actually see things the opposite way; it should be the Syrians themselves, specifically the young men, who step up to get Syria back on track. Honestly, who here or even on this forum is actually speaking out against women and children? Walter Grant5 is linking to Jergović for no real reason since we aren't even discussing that child here. It seems pretty wild that so many young men are risking their lives as refugees instead of serving on the front lines or working in construction and mines. That hasn't really happened like this before in history. There might be some new reasons for it, but it doesn't change the fact that this feels like something entirely different. You can't really compare this to the mass settlement of both Americas, because back then people were moving to conquer undeveloped territories. Here, large numbers of people are arriving in major European cities just to scrape by, often living right on the edge of the law.
That all sounds wonderful and lovely, but it feels like a classic way of calling on the whole world—honestly, it seems like pure utopia that only really exists in books. The world isn't perfect, and there are always innocent victims involved; I guess someone from Canada would probably know that better than anyone. Expecting massive help from the international community feels a bit like masochism, because things just don't work that way. During the tragedy in Srebrenica, the Dutch allowed a massacre to happen right in the heart of Europe, and nobody really stepped in. At the start of the war, people here were singing songs about how Europe would come to our rescue, but looking back, that seems pretty naive. I suppose until the people there take matters into their own hands, we might keep seeing these kinds of sad situations. That’s just my take on the truth.
I mean, what’s really so strange about it? Everyone in the world pretty much just looks out for their own backyard. That's basically why we have borders, militaries, visas, and all that stuff. If you look at it, both the US and Europe are actually doing better than the global average when it comes to helping refugees and people in need. I guess I haven't seen any deportations happening so far anyway.
Larry Fox5 said:I’m reading that thread about immigrants over on the politics forum and—honestly? I am literally turning red from pure embarrassment.
It is just pathetic how heartless, selfish, and miserable we’ve become as a nation... 😢
I haven't actually read that, and to be honest, I'm not really interested. I guess we have a perspective that most European countries haven't had to deal with yet; we dealt with our own refugees and displaced people about 20 years ago, so we know a bit more about the reality of it. Back in Chicago, almost every school had kids like that making up a third of the classrooms, and so many families took in relatives or close friends. My own family helped out a family from Ottawa. So, maybe we shouldn't jump to conclusions based on a few random trolls hanging out on the politics forums.
I suppose the real truth is that we should be asking questions about all of this, because a huge part of this whole situation seems to be just a business venture.
James Anderson5 said:You're being totally superficial again...
There are two separate issues here: the one involving refugees from Syria (which is what we've been discussing) and the one concerning migrants from North Africa and the Middle East. I'm not sure which topic you're referring to, because the answers are different for both. And don't forget, people take buses from America to Germany looking for work too—those are economic migrants as well, it's just that we're lucky enough to be positioned better geographically and part of the EU, so it's much easier. Plus, thousands of young people left here during the war seeking asylum across Europe; I know plenty of cases like that. Why don't you call them deserters or cowards? And where were you back in '91?... 😁 I just want to say that you could draw a million parallels between us and the Syrians...
Regarding Saudi Arabia and the rest, even other Arabs criticize them for this, even though they set aside about a billion dollars to help refugees in Turkey, Jordan, and so on. I believe Saudi Arabia has about 28 million people, and 6 million of them are foreigners. Maybe they're afraid that too many refugees would mess up their ethnic makeup (this issue is even more intense in wealthy Arab nations with much smaller populations), since they still think in terms of tribal loyalty. They fear that if they let them in, they'll never get rid of them, and if they start accepting them, they could end up with 3 or 4 million refugees right in their backyard, which might be 20% of the population. Don't forget that over 7 million people are displaced within Syria alone—what if they all flooded into Saudi Arabia? With a humanitarian gesture like that, they could end up in a situation like Mexicans with Albanians, where the group becomes so large they eventually take over the country or pose a threat as a massive national minority. Just look at how things played out in Iraq...
Turkey has 80 million people, so they aren't as worried about that, even with 1.6 or 2 million refugees. By taking in such a large number, they actually show they are a leading power in the Muslim world...
Qatar has about 1.8 million residents, I think Oman does too. They can afford even less to take in a large number of refugees for the same reasons as Saudi Arabia. When America was, say, taking in refugees from Canada during the war, it was a different story because a huge number of them were Americans...
Just as a bit of info, I know some people who left Canada during the war and are officially considered deserters, meaning they aren't allowed to return. We could go back and forth with philosophies and parallels here, but looking at human history, if you want something, you generally have to go out and achieve it yourself. I guess what this mass of migrants or refugees is really saying is that they’ve given up on their own countries and just want someone else to take care of things. To me, it feels like a sort of collective laziness or cowardice. Of course, it’s much easier to just run away and let someone else deal with the mess; maybe that's just one of those basic human patterns. Some people step up, while others pick up tools and build something from nothing. America has seen its share of struggles, but look at how developed and peaceful many parts of the world have become after surviving massive upheavals. Someone always has to get their hands dirty, and someone has to put in the work to create their own luck and satisfaction. I suppose the US or Europe might help these migrants simply because they are at a stage of development where there's a sense of collective responsibility for these situations. But that doesn't solve the problems in their home countries—that’s something those young men really ought to address. It's not written in any law that they have to, but does anyone honestly think Americans enjoy seeing people like that walking our streets? Just look at these: I was just reading this piece about how certain historical events shape our perspective, and it’s pretty interesting stuff. I guess it really makes you think about how much we rely on specific narratives to understand the past. Maybe it's worth looking at things from a slightly different angle every once in a while.
James Anderson5 said:A good chunk of what you're saying doesn't really hold water. First off, the number of refugees from Syria in Europe is actually pretty minor compared to the total number of refugees overall—it's worth noting for the context of this whole discussion.
It’s estimated that about 4 million people fled Syria, and 90% of them went to neighboring countries like Turkey, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon. Everyone here is making such a huge drama over a relatively small group of people, who were likely from a higher social class that could actually afford to pay smugglers to get to Europe. The rest are most likely folks who barely made it to the border. For instance, Turkey took in 1.6 million people while Jordan took 600,000. Only about 200,000 people made it to Europe, if that...
The reason they didn't go to Saudi Arabia, Qatar, or Oman is simply because Syria doesn't border them; instead, it borders the very countries taking in the highest numbers. On top of that, those wealthy nations haven't offered asylum, though they do provide financial aid...
Also, you're being incredibly harsh toward these refugees, calling them cowards and such. I'm not sure if you realize that the country you live in wouldn't even exist if the UN had been given the green light to use force early on to prevent the separation from America, rather than just for the first few weeks. Or if they'd been allowed to arrest all the initial political leaders right at the start, or later openly bomb Chicago and other major cities with massive consequences? Or what if we hadn't been recognized, or only partially recognized by certain countries? Or if specific regions were granted autonomy or taken over entirely? We were bombed because we decided to break away and nobody acknowledged us, which would have made us a "disruptive factor." Great powers can bring any smaller nation, like Syria, to its knees and plunge it into total chaos... and theoretically, they could have done that to us too, in which case having an M48 in your hands wouldn't have made any difference at all...
And as far as Israel and American policy goes, I can't think of any other two countries that have sparked more wars and civilian casualties over the last 50 years. I won't say American policy wasn't a much lesser evil than Russian policy toward the end of the Cold War, but that's a whole different conversation...
Do you even watch the news? They were talking on the evening broadcast tonight about both the North American route and the "African" route. The boats coming from Africa are mostly just young men. In Budapest, you mostly see groups of 5 or 6 young guys fighting over trains. Those aren't really refugees.
As for your point about Saudi Arabia and the others, nice try, I had a good laugh. The truth is they just don't want them; to them, these are just poor, dirty people. Instead, they have even poorer workers from India and Bangladesh. It’s all just business, and to them, these people are just pawns and statistics. That's why they have visas for them.
You're definitely not the only one asking that. I guess it’s true that the bigger surge didn't really pick up until the middle of this year. There were those reports last year about mass sinkings in the Mediterranean, but nobody was really talking about a "North America route" back then. It feels like a lot of it might just be a business that's developed over time. Maybe some people are making a decent living off the migration situation, and it's probably easy to spread stories about a fairy-tale Europe within those refugee communities. You have people waiting near the tunnel between the Island and France dreaming about studying at Cambridge when they barely have enough to eat.
James Anderson5 said:Not really, people take all of this quite seriously. First off, like Jessica Gonzalez said when she was talking about how Israel is basically nothing without the military, financial, and political backing from the US—there just isn't a more powerful lobby in America, whether you're looking at politics, finance, or the media. Just try Googling how many famous Jewish actors there are and compare that to their actual percentage of the US population, which is only around 2-3%. Or look up what AIPAC actually is and how much influence they hold... Plus, you have Israel occupying prime territory while keeping Palestinians essentially trapped in a massive camp surrounded by walls and barbed wire. It’s funny because someone could make a similar argument about Americans being lazy, but then they come here and see the coffee shops packed tight all day long...
No matter how brutal things were under the regime in Iraq, everything just spiraled downhill once the Americans moved in. On top of that, you look at Libya and see a total collapse of normal life, all because those oil and gas concessions held by places like Italy and France were about to expire... Basically, under the guise of US and Western policy, any nation that poses a threat to Israel or holds energy resources outside of their control gets dismantled. That seems to be the common thread. It’s likely all just a setup for a potential showdown with Iran, which has been brewing for a long time now. Of course, I'm strictly talking politics here; personally, I couldn't care less if someone is Gambian, Jewish, American, or anything else...
When it comes to population numbers, we actually have a pretty good grasp on how many acres of farmland are needed to sustain a certain number of people, along with water requirements and environmental impacts... Honestly, I think the best way to manage population growth is through education. As people become more educated, they tend to focus on providing better opportunities for their kids, which usually means having fewer children to ensure stability. There’s an excellent documentary on this from the BBC—these aren't just my opinions, they're widely accepted facts... Now, does anyone else wonder if there are intentional efforts to limit population through things like water quality, food supply, pollution, or those infamous chemtrails? It's tough to say because it starts sounding like a conspiracy theory, though that doesn't mean it isn't true... 😁
What are you even talking about? That’s exactly the point—the Jewish community protects its own people by any means necessary. Their diaspora supports Israelis, unlike the rest of the Arab world, which I guess might be happier if all the Syrians just starved. Why don't these refugees go to Dubai, Qatar, or Saudi Arabia? Those are places and cities that are way wealthier than Europe or other Arab nations, yet the refugees don't head there? I guess I'd love an explanation for that.
Everything will eventually reach a breaking point, and then things might just fall apart. I guess you have to wonder how Germany could possibly handle taking in 800,000 asylum seekers in a single year.
I’m not trying to say the USA or NATO shouldn't be held accountable—everyone bears some responsibility, and what happened in Iraq was a massive historical blunder that future generations will likely still be feeling. But at the end of the day, Syria is Syria, and it belongs to the Syrian people. I guess if they collectively allow barbarians to take everything over, then maybe they're facing the consequences of that choice, as harsh as that sounds. It seems to me that both individuals and large groups earn the most respect when they handle their own problems.
Man, I feel like I’m starting to sound like a total hardliner now. It just really bothers me when people are treated unfairly, especially when the ones who are actually supposed to fix things just sit on their hands. I guess there’s no magic wand for these kinds of issues; sometimes things have to get messy to see real change. That seems to be how it's always worked, and honestly, nobody really respects people who back down when things get tough.
I've spent some time in Syria, so I have a sense of what things are like there and the scale of the situation. In my experience, people there can be somewhat unmotivated, and I honestly didn't expect much of a fight. It seems to be a pattern across the whole region; for instance, you have hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in Jordan, mostly just getting by because it feels unlikely they'll ever really stand up against Israel. That’s why I have a certain respect for Israelis—they don't mess around. They seem to value their land and their people ten times more than the Arab world does.