Posts by coastalskipper92

Anything else?

PUT!

With some forms of spiritual growth, for instance, we arrive at a certain kind of discipline simultaneously. It becomes spontaneous. But at every peak, there are extreme trials. To cross that threshold, one must recognize the trap. Changing what has been learned—that is the trial for the mind.
I don't quite grasp what you're asking exactly, but... well, it's good that we're discussing this.
Control isn't inherently positive or negative. Sometimes it is welcome; other times, the very pursuit of control is what leads to despair.
But if we find ourselves in despair, does that not mean that too is a lesson?
The learning never stops.

Here is an everyday dilemma. There are situations where a bad state of being is merely passing through. Naturally, the impulse is to ask "why?"—but that leads nowhere. Those learned patterns—is it better to sleep it off, to ignore it? Or on the other hand—is it better to stay productive, to... blah blah, just to pass the time until things improve?
I simply let go. And then, perhaps in those moments, I realize something, or I simply hit rock bottom and say goodbye. Occasionally, creativity strikes, and that turns out to be far more productive for me than those other two options.

Nothing is "bad," I think that’s the only conclusion.
There are no questions, though I feel them even without asking...
The only thing that matters isn't what kind of action you choose, but rather the awareness that all of it is correct. My own excess of striving is what becomes foolish during those foolish moments.

To be able to let things flow. So yes, in my view, not controlling it is the ultimate form of control.
In that sense, I agree with K., assuming I understood correctly, though I haven't read him.
I only remember his words very clearly, recorded here on the forum, regarding the non-existence of time.
Sometimes the words we read are merely someone else's words; sometimes they are an experience you share with the speaker.
It isn't an easy task, because the harshest critics are usually those who fail to understand, and there are many of them... truth is a whole, it doesn't fit into words; you cannot transmit realization.
Absolute truth? I don't know. Perhaps you experienced him as more arrogant than he actually is.
I suppose if one is writing a book, it follows naturally that various "truths" can be derived from it. Every work is a whole, carrying its own message or messages. I don't see how it could be any different. And just as you have done yourself, from every work, further questions can be drawn, and that is wonderful. That is how new works are born. 😍

So we might just end up losing this one:

But perhaps you should try loosening that turban a bit? Might allow some much-needed oxygen to actually reach your brain.

p.s. 2 : a rather progressive moment 🙂 🤣

(where the real issues arise—not within emotions themselves, but perhaps in the collision of feeling and thought... though, of course, for someone nicknamed Mimosa 🥳...)

Edward Flores4 said:Wait a second... I'm a little lost here.

Didn't you just say that you weren't even sure where to "place the exotic plant" initially (it wasn't about having "space for change"), and then later on, at some specific point, you finally realized there was a "free spot" available?

Are you trying to tell me that you processed the idea in stages, or did it just take some time before everything suddenly clicked for you all at once?

Think about it one more time. 😉

And now 😂 we are merely talking about definitions... and honestly, how can one define anything other than a few fleeting moments 🤷
?
Perhaps everyone possesses a certain number of groups, dark rooms...
I suppose I have a few more 😂

For instance, you and I are entirely different, so it doesn't surprise me...
I am, shall we say, a somewhat emotional individual, and I suspect that plays a role...

If we follow your logic, I could perhaps define... yes, the moment when the stages begin, and when they cease... though even that initial onset felt like a firework display. For me, everything comes with special effects... you know how it is; some people remain composed while others fall into a trance.
It is easiest for me to define it as albedo... I believe Jung spoke of this as well.
When you reach albedo, the shift is profound, and it feels as if there is nothing left to realize.😂

p.s.

Edward Flores4 said:See how simple it actually is? 🙂

If you truly believe your guru is enlightened—and more importantly, if you believe they can hand you some magic technique that will somehow trigger your own enlightenment—then you aren't a student; you're just a perfect little believer. 😁

Think about it: you have a guru advising you to just sit there quietly, legs crossed, trying to split yourself into two versions—one part observing and one part being observed—as if doing nothing while sitting still is going to "achieve" something profound. And meanwhile, in your "free time," you’re basically just running errands for this leader... yeah, that kind of guru hasn't led you to freedom; they've just pushed you straight into 😁
.

😂 😂

I haven't actually read Krishnamurthi, yet both of your quotes offer a completely different interpretation of Krishnamurthi and meditation compared to my own.
Everyone sees what they want to see, I suppose.

Edward Flores4 said:Anyone who thinks meditation is going to "smooth out" human emotions—or that it eventually leads to some kind of constant bliss or comfort—clearly hasn't a clue what they're talking about.

Besides... why do you assume only an agitated person can be verbally aggressive? Tolerance isn't a free pass; it’s something you earn. It is perfectly normal, even productive, to withhold tolerance from someone who hasn't earned it. Doing that doesn't require being upset—quite the opposite, actually. It requires calmness, calculation, and resolve. You're completely conflating "political correctness" with "spirituality."

Human stupidity... while it can be fascinating and deeply annoying at the same time, it should only rattle those who aren't expecting to run into it. If you go into the day expecting stupidity, its appearance won't shake you—just like you don't get upset when the sun sets in the evening after having expected it to rise in the morning.

Quincy:

what does meditation mean to you? Because clearly, your definition is a far cry from the standard one.

Krishnamurti describes the problem of meditation perfectly, and it aligns exactly with my own view of the matter.

Meditation is a very complex business. The Word meditation implies both in Sanskrit and in English, not only the brain concentrating on a certain subject, but also it implies a great deal of attention. But primarily meditation means, in Sanskrit, to measure. And also in English etymologically, I believe, it is to measure.
The whole question of becoming is involved in it, which is to measure: I am this, I will be that. I am greedy, but I will gradually become non-greedy, which is a form of measurement, which is form of becoming. Both becoming in the affairs of the world and psychologically becoming. That is the whole question of measurement.
The Greeks were the originators of measurement. Without measurement there would be no technology. And The Asiatics specially in India, said measurement is illusion, measurement means limitation. They didn’t exactly say this, they put it differently. So measurement means comparison, to compare ‘what is’, ‘what should be’, the ideal, the fact, the fact becoming the ideal. All that is implied in meditation.

And also in meditation is implied, the meditator and the meditation. So to enquire into meditation, you have to enquire first not only measurement, but also this constant becoming something, psychologically. Human beings are violent, and the ideal to be in a state of non-violence, which is to become.

So the question is not how to meditate but what is meditation, rather than how. I hope I am making myself clear. And also there is a question involved in that: who is meditating? And most of The Systems of meditation , whether The Japanese , and The hindus, and so on, Tibetan, there is always the controller and the controlled. Right? Are we meeting each other? So there is the controller controlling thought, to quieten the thought, to shape thought according to a purposeful direction. So there is the controller and the controlled. Who is the controller?

Please, all this is implied in meditation, not merely to control one’s thought as is generally understood in meditation, whether it is Zen meditation, or the most complex forms of meditation which take place in India, and elsewhere, there is always the director, the entity that controls thought. SoThey’ve essentially created this psychological split between the one doing the thinking and the thoughts themselves. Because of that, the thinker detaches himself from the actual process of thinking—which leads to this idea that during meditation, there’s some sort of "controller" stepping in to manage and quiet down the thoughts.

It creates this fundamental divide between the controller and what is being controlled. Makes sense, right? But here’s the kicker: who actually *is* the controller? Honestly, hardly anyone ever stops to ask that.
Most people are just thrilled to dive into meditation because they’re chasing a specific destination—you know, things like sudden illumination, total enlightenment, a quieted brain, or just some much-needed peace of mind. But very, very few people actually take a moment to inquire: who is this controller I'm trying to use?

------------------

And hey, if there’s anything else that still feels a bit fuzzy... just ask. 🙂

Starting from that very first sentence, I find myself agreeing with shamantrixx.

It so "annoys" me when, if I happen to bring up a "problem" during a discussion on spirituality, everyone suddenly tries to comfort me... telling me that I'll grow through it and then won't have "problems" anymore.
That I'll just bask in eternal light and peace.
How lovely.
And all because the ego feels the need to "write off" problems simply because they don't fit within the concept of Zen.

shamantrixx... you once wrote to me regarding one of my little rants 😂 about how it isn't necessarily harder to be right... that change is instantaneous...
It wasn't that for me... we aren't the same...
I observed it for a while, much like an exotic plant 😂 and I didn't quite have the space to find a place for it just yet.
I have to explain this using metaphors 😍

Edward Flores4 said:Anyone who thinks meditation is going to "smooth out" human emotions—or that it eventually leads to some kind of constant bliss or comfort—clearly hasn't a clue what they're talking about.

Besides... why do you assume only an agitated person can be verbally aggressive? Tolerance isn't a free pass; it’s something you earn. It is perfectly normal, even productive, to withhold tolerance from someone who hasn't earned it. Doing that doesn't require being upset—quite the opposite, actually. It requires calmness, calculation, and resolve. You're completely conflating "political correctness" with "spirituality."

Human stupidity... while it can be fascinating and deeply annoying at the same time, it should only rattle those who aren't expecting to run into it. If you go into the day expecting stupidity, its appearance won't shake you—just like you don't get upset when the sun sets in the evening after having expected it to rise in the morning.

Quincy:

what does meditation mean to you? Because clearly, your definition is a far cry from the standard one.

Krishnamurti describes the problem of meditation perfectly, and it aligns exactly with my own view of the matter.

Meditation is a very complex business. The Word meditation implies both in Sanskrit and in English, not only the brain concentrating on a certain subject, but also it implies a great deal of attention. But primarily meditation means, in Sanskrit, to measure. And also in English etymologically, I believe, it is to measure.
The whole question of becoming is involved in it, which is to measure: I am this, I will be that. I am greedy, but I will gradually become non-greedy, which is a form of measurement, which is form of becoming. Both becoming in the affairs of the world and psychologically becoming. That is the whole question of measurement.
The Greeks were the originators of measurement. Without measurement there would be no technology. And The Asiatics specially in India, said measurement is illusion, measurement means limitation. They didn’t exactly say this, they put it differently. So measurement means comparison, to compare ‘what is’, ‘what should be’, the ideal, the fact, the fact becoming the ideal. All that is implied in meditation.

And also in meditation is implied, the meditator and the meditation. So to enquire into meditation, you have to enquire first not only measurement, but also this constant becoming something, psychologically. Human beings are violent, and the ideal to be in a state of non-violence, which is to become.

So the question is not how to meditate but what is meditation, rather than how. I hope I am making myself clear. And also there is a question involved in that: who is meditating? And most of The Systems of meditation , whether The Japanese , and The hindus, and so on, Tibetan, there is always the controller and the controlled. Right? Are we meeting each other? So there is the controller controlling thought, to quieten the thought, to shape thought according to a purposeful direction. So there is the controller and the controlled. Who is the controller?

Please, all this is implied in meditation, not merely to control one’s thought as is generally understood in meditation, whether it is Zen meditation, or the most complex forms of meditation which take place in India, and elsewhere, there is always the director, the entity that controls thought. SoThey’ve essentially created this psychological split between the one doing the thinking and the thoughts themselves. Because of that, the thinker detaches himself from the actual process of thinking—which leads to this idea that during meditation, there’s some sort of "controller" stepping in to manage and quiet down the thoughts.

It creates this fundamental divide between the controller and what is being controlled. Makes sense, right? But here’s the kicker: who actually *is* the controller? Honestly, hardly anyone ever stops to ask that.
Most people are just thrilled to dive into meditation because they’re chasing a specific destination—you know, things like sudden illumination, total enlightenment, a quieted brain, or just some much-needed peace of mind. But very, very few people actually take a moment to inquire: who is this controller I'm trying to use?

------------------

And hey, if there’s anything else that still feels a bit fuzzy... just ask. 🙂

To me, meditation is simply self-knowledge about self-knowledge. Is that not the essence of it? 😂😍

If meditation is meant to be the path toward realization, then isn't realization itself a bit of a phantom? A ghost we chase? It feels as though we’ve simply projected the goal into some distant future, measuring a destination that doesn't actually exist in the present.

Jeremy Palmer said:So, what exactly do you think meditation creates?

A truly steady mind—one rooted deeply in its own being—remains calm regardless of what’s happening around it. It doesn't get to pick and choose when to be verbally aggressive and when to be tolerant; it stays consistent through thick and thin. What you're describing sounds more like typical human reactivity. We tend to cloud our judgment with selectivity, pre-judging every situation before it even unfolds. We often convince ourselves we have some sort of right to lash out at others just because, in our opinion, they "deserve" it. But let's be real: verbal aggression is always aggression. And if it isn't a heat-of-the-moment outburst, but rather something calculated and planned? Then it's nothing more than plain old sadism.

No, I think Krishnamurti does an excellent job here of describing what meditation is NOT. If you just read your quote without any context, you might walk away thinking he was actually against meditation. What meditation truly IS, however, is described right here:

As Krishnamurti once said:

Meditation is essentially the moment when thought finally comes to an end. It’s only once that noise settles that you can actually step into a different dimension—one that exists entirely beyond the constraints of time.

A truly meditative mind is defined by silence. I’m not talking about the quiet you feel on a calm evening or the kind of stillness you can just imagine; I mean the profound silence that occurs only when thought—with all its constant stream of images, words, and perceptions—completely stops. This meditative mind is The religious mind – The religion that is not touched by The church , The temple or by chants - Meditation is One of The Greatest Arts in Life – perhaps The Greatest.

Meditation is truly one of life's finest arts—honestly, maybe even the greatest. The best part? You can’t actually learn it from anyone else. There’s a certain beauty in that. Since there’s no specific technique to master, there’s no authority figure telling you you're doing it "wrong." It really comes down to self-discovery. If you can just observe yourself—watching how you walk, how you eat, the things you say, or even those little moments of gossip, resentment, or jealousy—that's where it starts. Being fully aware of all that within yourself, without judging or trying to pick and choose what to feel, is a fundamental part of meditation.

Meditation isn't just about sitting still on a cushion. It can happen anywhere—whether you're riding the bus through downtown Chicago, strolling through a sun-dappled forest, listening to the local songbirds, or simply catching a quiet moment while looking at the face of your spouse or your child.

- It is fascinating how vital meditation truly is; it feels as though it has no starting point and no finish line. Think of it like a single raindrop that feeds all the winding streams, massive rivers, oceans, and roaring waterfalls; that one drop sustains the entire planet and everyone on it. Without it, the world would just be a barren desert. In the same way, without meditation, the human heart turns into a wasteland.

- Let's be honest, meditation is actual work. It requires a very specific kind of discipline—not the kind where you just follow the crowd, imitate others, or obey rules—but a discipline born from staying constantly aware, not just of your surroundings, but of what's happening deep inside you.

- If you haven't built a foundation of integrity in your daily life, meditation just becomes a way to run away from reality, which makes it pretty much useless. Living with integrity isn't about sticking to social etiquette; it's about finding freedom from envy, greed, and the hunger for power—things that only ever create conflict. You don't get free from those things by trying harder with sheer willpower; you get there by becoming aware of them through genuine self-knowledge. If you don't understand how your own ego operates, meditation just turns into a form of sensory stimulation, which doesn't really mean much.

- Meditation is truly extraordinary. If you don't grasp what it actually is, you're a bit like someone who is blind living in a world full of vibrant colors, shifting shadows, and dancing light. It isn't some purely intellectual exercise. But when the heart truly connects with the mind, the mind changes entirely; it becomes limitless—not just in how it thinks or acts effectively, but in its ability to feel like you are part of a vast, interconnected space where you belong to everything.

What exactly do these little asterisks signify?

It isn't about imitation... I've always felt that the truly enlightened ones are those who actually have a guru. 😂

Meditation isn't about finding peace. It’s about freedom. Or is it? One might argue that peace is just a temporary lull, a quiet moment before the storm returns. But true liberation—that’s something else entirely.
There can be no peace without first having freedom.
If we prioritize finding peace first, then our freedom becomes little more than a fleeting oasis.[/b]

I’m not exactly making an assertion here; I am simply asking if you could perhaps elaborate on your question so that I might provide a proper response.

I want to expand upon the thoughts I already possess regarding this matter.

placidharbor7 said:Who watches the watcher, Truth seeker?

Who is actually meditating, and who is just hallucinating the "experience" of meditation?

Can there even be meditation without an observer?

Krishnamurti preached celibacy while juggling two lovers at the same time; why on earth would you trust him?

That second question of yours is redundant. If there is someone supervising the supervisor, then clearly meditation happens regardless of their presence.

casualmoose63 said:You don't actually need meditation to wrap your head around any of that...

someone might realize it through other (perhaps more difficult) ways. 🙂

you've actually nudged me toward a specific thought here.

Meditation? No, it isn't "needed."

Think of it this way:

1) Imagine someone just wanders onto a forum out of nowhere. I have no clue what they'd do. Suppose they spent eight hours trying to open their third eye... then suddenly pass out. 😍
Everyone would tell them, "Man, you aren't ready yet. You'll know when you're ready."

2) When a person is truly ready, it implies they are spiritually prepared.
Being spiritually prepared means being stripped of—well, as many—needs as possible.

So, when someone claims to have reached enlightenment after thirty years of spiritual practice, yet simultaneously mentions a "need for meditation"...

how does that work? Isn't there that old saying about the final test before Nirvana being the refusal to be enslaved by even the desire to be free from slavery? 😉
That's all I know about Buddhism, and frankly, it's enough for me.

Arguments regarding the "need to not be enslaved"... 🥳
there's no debate there.
It either is, or it isn't.

@ coastalskipper92: It’s a shame you only addressed one small slice of what I wrote above..

To me, the first part is far more significant... where I mentioned that nothing brings me closer to a state of meditation than singing in a circle with others...
Yet they don't experience it as "meditation"—it just happens spontaneously.

For me, that offers a "deeper peace" than sitting alone staring at a candle, or even that setup where everyone stands in a ring chanting together..
That feels artificial... much more "manufactured" than the sensation I am describing.

One doesn't meditate using the brain or the nerves, surely, but through some kind of energy, right?..
So, am I losing my mind if it seems logical to me that there is more energy found in community and relationships rather than in passivity?

I am not referring to any sort of manic energy or exaltation.
Edward Flores4 wrote somewhere a long time ago that meditation means mediation..
What I mean is, pulling a thread of peace and truth out of actual life is much more valuable and far-reaching than finding it through inactivity.

It isn't exactly easy to empty one's mind while sitting still for hours, or whatever, but is it not even "harder" to meditate within active situations?
Because it doesn't just depend on you.....
But it is worth it.

It really gets under my skin when I bring up meditation to someone who clearly couldn't care less about spirituality, only for them to hit me with that hollow, "Oh, that's good for calming down" line. Is that really all they see? Just a tool for relaxation? It’s such a reductive way to view it. Why must everything be stripped down to mere stress management?

How would one even begin to define the actual effect of meditation? And I mean, moving past the usual clichés like "inner peace" or "deep tranquility"... those are the terms laypeople love to lean on, aren't they? It feels like such a distortion of the process.

If meditation is truly the path toward the truth, then we are talking about a journey toward the center. But if it is a journey... isn't that inherently at odds with peace? One cannot be moving and be still at the exact same moment, can they?
To me, peace is more of a symbol than anything else. Is it even a tangible thing we can grasp? Or is it just an idea we chase to feel better about the chaos? I find myself wondering if we're all just chasing a phantom.
I suppose all words are merely symbols, aren't they? Just arbitrary markers floating in a void. And yet... if we are to proceed, perhaps we should attempt to uncover some alternative definitions for the purpose of meditation.

Edward Flores4 said:The Riddle of the Sphinx

Honestly, I think only a complete idiot would try to pin down an answer to that—which is pretty much why neither Krishnamurti nor myself ever bothered attempting it in the first place.

Sometimes the question itself is the only answer you're going to get. But lately, I've been getting really into the idea of feedback loops and circles, so I’ll leave it up to you to tackle it:

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

center-point 😍?

Could someone please translate that for me? My Latin is somewhat lacking.

On another note... for those of you advocating for "inner peace"—why won't you concede that true tranquility might actually be found within the chaos of our current surroundings?

That sense of calm following a heavy, long "winter slumber"... it’s almost a biological necessity. A logical... what's the word... physiological reaction.

MERELY A REACTION!

I tend to break my daily existence down into five distinct segments, just so I can periodically ask myself how things are actually progressing

I use the term "daily" because I’m not talking about the heavy stuff—you know, love, health, or personal freedom—but rather the trivialities... though, frankly, one shouldn't dwell too much on 😈

Thank God, I don't bother counting them, I just wash my hands of the whole thing 🙂

though I do keep track of exactly how many dollars are sitting in my wallet

not that I’m much of a materialist, mind you

😂

If you ask me, the controller represents the soul or the ego, whereas the thing doing the controlling? That’s just a tiny fragment of reality itself.

It’s all about those "coincidences"...

So, I’m not talking about reading a book from cover to cover... it’s more like some sort of spiritual web of influence that just seems to manifest right when we need it most.

P.S. I have an idea—perhaps we could expand this discussion to include musical influences as well...
Sometimes, a single lyric carries more weight than an entire book.😉

wiredbear2 said:Do you really believe that inner peace and having fun are mutually exclusive?

Shaman, I'm talking about a "deep" kind of tranquility, the sort that isn't tethered to whatever is happening in the world around you.
And... I don't see life and death as two separate things. They are equally vital parts of the same whole 😉

I forgot to mention, of course, that this applies perfectly to workplace stress as well. 🙂
People have this tendency to multiply their own unnecessary misery just because they can.

For me, that deep sense of peace hits when I'm just sitting in a local coffee shop, passing drinks around with friends.

Or even just hearing a certain song that gives me goosebumps... whereas silence offers nothing, and constant music just leaves me feeling saturated and frustrated.

Peace, to my mind, is a moment you surrender to, rather than something you try to manufacture.
It doesn't occur to me to seek peace in the sense of total stillness...
If that were the case, we should all be happy to remain paralyzed, tucked away in some sterile hospital room where everything is white and birds are chirping outside. That would be it.

Feeling a bit morbid this morning, please excuse me.🙂

For me, the best kind of meditation happens when I actually notice something—which is rare, since my visual perception isn't exactly sharp

Today, I caught something

Someone was posting on the forum about getting lost in thought... just staring at something and dwelling on how things are right NOW.. specifically as 🥳 passes by

Well, I stumbled upon something entirely by accident today, and it sparked this sudden burst of creativity...
And it’s only just hitting me that I actually saw it....

I suppose I'll know I've made progress once I realize I've noticed it—when I'm constantly perceiving the present moment....
And I am doing that now, though in a different way

(The self-proclaimed enlightened types would probably try to tell me when I've finally "reached it," but honestly? They wouldn't have a clue)

Besides, this has nothing to do with reaching transcendence after a long day of lotus positions; on that point, I agree with Edward Flores4