Posts by hiddenscout44

Lawrence Torres56 said:

says:
but wait, if believing in Santa Claus is considered BELIEF, then isn't Catholicism basically just the study of belief? (I mean, that's literally what the word implies). So, shouldn't they be teaching about the belief in Santa Claus in religion class too? Or is this strictly limited to Catholic religion classes (and where exactly does it say that?)

Look, Santa Claus is all about marketing; he's got absolutely nothing to do with actual faith or any kind of theology😉
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus

Christmas and Santa Claus aren't even in the same universe; Christmas is a Christian holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus, whereas Santa Claus is just some character cooked up to drive consumer spending...
and honestly, once people stop trying to link every single little thing to Christmas, I doubt religious instructors are going to be out here ruining anyone's holiday vibes.
And speaking of "ruining someone's vibes"—what's that supposed to mean? Are we saying the police shouldn't step in when some unstable person starts attacking someone because it might ruin their "magic"?🤣

So, where is the actual issue there? Why should teachers and staff be bogged down every single year with unnecessary paperwork just because some parent finds it too much work to write a quick note to the school before the new semester starts, letting them know their kid won't be attending religion class anymore?🤣
Do you seriously think someone who signed their kid up for religion class just "because everyone else is doing it" is actually going to go out of their way to unenroll them?🤦

Well, technically I disagree because kids—and honestly, people in general—are taught to believe that some guy named Santa actually shows up with presents. So yeah, it definitely ties back to faith and belief systems. With all these myths and legends, it really just comes down to what you personally choose to buy into... (honestly, if you look at it strictly, there isn't much difference between believing in Jesus and believing in Santa—both stories are built on teaching people to believe in these figures and their (magical) influence)

btw. All religions fall under the umbrella of marketing too (the whole point is to convince everyone that *their* specific way is the only right one), so it’s really just a competition to see whose marketing works better.

shadowcrane91 said:Every single faith is built on BELIEF...
It’s pretty simple... religious studies isn't exactly a place where you look for Santa Claus... so there’s zero need for anyone to prove anything... and they're totally right about that... in our faith, he just doesn't exist... any kid sitting in a Sunday school class should already know that, because that's exactly how they ought to be raised.

But if believing in Santa is BELIEF, then isn't Catholicism basically just the study of belief? (The word itself implies it). So, technically, you should be teaching about believing in Santa too. Or is this strictly limited to Catholicism? (And where does it actually say that?)

Wait, are you saying just because the religion teacher said it, it's automatically fake or something?
btw, I'm totally against having religion classes in public schools, and my little one doesn't attend them, but that doesn't mean I think everything taught in those classes is total nonsense

Brenda Doyle5 said:Yeah, right... especially when it comes to those self-righteous types.☕

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I guess even a broken clock is right twice a day 👍

Look, everyone’s on a different timeline—for some it’s their first time dealing with this, for others it’s the second or third, and for some, they’re basically retired from caring... and kids don't believe in Santa Claus because of their age, they believe because their parents are out there feeding them lines. The real issue when someone disagrees with a teacher being upfront isn't about the truth itself; it's because an outsider—in this case, the teacher—just pointed out that the parents have been lying. Whether people want to admit it or not, parents lose their grip the second a kid catches onto that hypocrisy. Once a child realizes their parents are being two-faced, that authority just vanishes overnight.
Basically, if you actually raised your kids with honesty, you wouldn't be sweating it when someone else tells them the truth.

rowdypanther12 said:It doesn't really matter when they start believing; what matters is that the burden shouldn't be on the teacher to decide what's true or false. If my seven-year-old understands that it isn't okay to tell their friends who believe in Santa Claus that he isn't real, then an adult should be able to handle it too.

Some parents try to keep their kids in the dark forever, so the real question is where the line is drawn. When is it a parent's job to tell the truth versus when is it just a case of kids—and people in general—simply being ignorant because nobody ever taught them?
The worst ones are the people who think knowledge just descends from some higher power or that kids will eventually pick things up by osmosis. That kind of irresponsible parenting carries over into way more important stuff too, like sex ed or gender equality... not to mention basic manners and respecting others as individuals.

I honestly think it’s totally fine for teachers to bring this stuff up. That’s literally the whole point of the American school system—to educate people using actual facts.

Larry Walker24 said:Reagan said it a long time ago: "Americans are just small-time cattle."

And honestly, he wasn't wrong. Whether someone here actually views their fellow citizens as equals or not is just their own (flawed) perspective... but the fact that even with democracy, we haven't moved an inch in 25 years—we're actually sinking—just shows how incapable this country is of doing anything meaningful.

But that’s not even the main point. It’s more about cause and effect: religious education in our schools is just a direct result of the people being too weak to resist those who exploit them.

Jessica Kelly4 said:... and people will fight back if their faith and religion aren't a priority.
What you're calling "sneaky tactics" is actually just standard political and social maneuvering used by all kinds of organizations and institutions. Since religious education is part of the curriculum in almost every country in Europe, it clearly matters enough to most people. I won't touch anything else so we don't lose the thread here.

PS
I have to jump in and say that America isn't a religious state, not even in theory. That's a pretty malicious claim to make.

"if they can do it, why can't we?" yeah, obviously. why would the church bother setting a good example when they can just use shady methods because everyone else is doing it? typical religious hypocrisy right there.
And this idea that "citizens will resist"... please. most people are just sheep. folks wouldn't resist if someone broke into their house and started trashing their living room. I had an example of this literally yesterday—being brave as I am, I was filming and calling out some jerk who was dumping trash at an illegal dump site, while some other guy just walked past us, pulling his jacket tight like it had nothing to do with him. He didn't stop to help report this animal to the cops; instead, I'm the one stuck dealing with the confrontation and eventually the legal mess. Because yeah, "citizens will resist"...

Look, what I'm about to say comes from years of observing this: most people—like, 90% of them—are just plain sheep who follow a leader. You can impose a leader on anyone, and it usually works through intimidation, just like those extremists in the anti-abortion movements or those hypocritical types over at the local big-name charity, or even just some relative holding onto the family inheritance. Most people will happily bow down to people like that just to stay in their good graces, just so they don't end up being the ones under the spotlight getting asked, "Are you sure? Is that your final answer?"
And organizations exploit that big time. Fine, people are responsible for their own choices. But don't try to sell me on morality, holiness, or "saving souls" and all that fake stuff the church and "religious" groups peddle, because that's the last thing those organizations actually care about...

I don't even know where to start with this... honestly just feels like we're spinning our wheels here. hiddenscout44 says:
Anyone pushing you around? If they are, I’m right there with you... at the core, faith is all about freedom...

Nobody’s forcing my hand directly, but they’re using these sneaky, underhanded tactics to pressure everyone. It’s the exact same playbook those extremists used during those anti-abortion protests... just applied differently. Now it’s about schools, trying to give pseudoscience the same weight as actual science, pushing certain agendas into the curriculum, and signing state contracts that basically force the government to adopt non-secular policies... it's all part of the same scheme...

I don't know what to tell you... just feels like we're spinning our wheels here. hiddenscout44 says:
Benedict XVI was a heavy hitter in theology for decades. He actually wrote out clearly that the Church should never aim for a religious state where people are forced to follow a specific faith...

It’s wild... you've got this one church basically fighting tooth and nail against Catholic religious states—especially ours, where priests are out here telling people exactly who to vote for... 😵

Jessica Kelly4 said:

says:
... as a parent, I refuse to let my child be indoctrinated by that organization...

Is anyone actually forcing you? If they are, then I’m with you. At its core, faith is about freedom.
Benedict XVI, a heavyweight theologian for the Catholic Church for decades, explicitly wrote that the Church should never aim for a religious state where faith is mandatory. You can believe whatever you want, but the modern secular state didn't just pop up out of nowhere; it emerged in the West within the framework of Catholic tradition. I expect this secular state to respect the role of religion in its institutions today.

PS
By the way, these aren't conspiracy theories. It's a classic ideological war, and it's pretty well documented.

🤣 It just went the other way!...
The modern secular state didn't just pop out of nowhere under the wing of the Catholic Church. It actually emerged as a direct response to... The crackdown... Catholicism had such a massive reach. But honestly, all that repression is exactly what triggered the split and forced the church back into its rightful place—making faith a personal choice you fund out of your own pocket. It shouldn’t be like it is here, where we’re still basically under the state's wing... it's a far cry from what true secularism actually looks like.

Jessica Kelly4 said:

says:
... as a parent, I refuse to let my child be indoctrinated by that organization...

Is anyone actually forcing you? If they are, then I’m with you. At its core, faith is about freedom.
Benedict XVI, a heavyweight theologian for the Catholic Church for decades, explicitly wrote that the Church should never aim for a religious state where faith is mandatory. You can believe whatever you want, but the modern secular state didn't just pop up out of nowhere; it emerged in the West within the framework of Catholic tradition. I expect this secular state to respect the role of religion in its institutions today.

PS
By the way, these aren't conspiracy theories. It's a classic ideological war, and it's pretty well documented.

Just like those well-documented screw-ups by church officials, and unlike those conspiracy theories you're pushing, these mistakes are actually public record...

Jessica Kelly4 said:Ever heard of a "black legend"? The British Empire used that tactic all the time to smear their enemies. Take Spain, for example—it’s notorious for being a land of cruelty, but most people don't realize half those stories were just British propaganda. The Brits were pros at that game.

A similar strategy against the church and its influence started with German philosophers in the early 20th century (look up the Frankfurt School if you want). Religion, especially the Catholic Church, was branded as the ultimate enemy. That war hasn't stopped; it just moved into the media, academia, and politics. It's probably too much political theory for this thread, so I'll stop there. For most people on forums like this, attacking the church is just a lazy way to signal how progressive they are.

Oh, lovely. As if we Catholics didn't give you enough to be scared of, now we need conspiracy theories to claim we're all brainwashed by lies because the church doesn't live up to its own values😵

When I talk about this stuff, I'm strictly talking from personal experience. Plus, I'm one of those people who, back during the "Communist era," myself actually went to religious education classes without anyone trying to stop me (since I was like a 7-year-old kid, it was actually pretty cool to learn all those wild stories about God; back then, believing in all that supernatural stuff was genuinely interesting to me). So, based on my life—from school religious ed to all the sacraments, talking to priests, and studying other religions and customs—I've landed where I am today: the Catholic Church is essentially a profit-driven organization that drifted away from Christian roots a long, long time ago. Sure, within the church, and even in places like the Republican Party or major banks, there are honest, decent people, but they're such a tiny minority that they can't shift the overall direction of the organization. Especially not when it comes to local branches like the church in America, which is so stuck in its ways that even high-ranking officials often clash with the Pope. Anyway, that's enough about them...

So, based on all that, as a parent, I don't want to subject my kid to indoctrination by this organization, no matter how good their marketing is or how much they try to look better than they actually are. The reality is that nobody I know is a good person *because* of this organization; they just maintain relationships with it because of the image it projects (that it’s an organization of good people).

Btw, something funny happened recently: a coworker of my wife's, who's a huge believer, was totally shocked when she found out we didn't have a church wedding. This woman, in her 30s, basically concluded that "she knows plenty of good, normal people who don't go to church, just like she knows plenty of bad people who go every week" (wow, what a groundbreaking realization for an adult). So she wasn't surprised my wife is a good person despite not attending, but she did say she "felt bad because we're living in sin."
It would never even cross my mind to tell a believer "I feel bad for you because you're a believer" (because I think everyone should carry their own weight, so if someone wants to tie themselves to that organization and its worldview, that's their business). But on the flip side, believers are constantly judging non-believers with comments like that. It's like Jesus said: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" (man, that Catholic stone hit home...) and "Judge not, lest ye be judged." (Look, I know everything Jesus said, but I'm not Catholic and I'm "living in sin" in a marriage without a church sacrament.)

shadowcrane91 said:Look, I was primarily talking about Catholics who claim the label but act completely different...
And they're totally fine with it... like, "Yeah, call me Catholic, but I'm not really gonna act like one."
And if someone actually identifies as Catholic and respects the rest of the commandments—why on earth can't they respect the first three too?????
Most of these commandments are just fundamental moral standards that anyone should stick to...
But if you're actually Catholic, you should be following all ten...

Seriously... I just can't wrap my head around people calling themselves Catholic when everything seems to bother them...
From following the rules to having their kid go to religious ed but skipping Mass...

And then they have the nerve to get pissed off if a textbook mentions coming to church...

Come on... either commit to being Catholic or don't.

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They’ve got a reputation for being total hypocrites—only acting patriotic when there's money to be stolen from the state, only playing European when it's time to collect USA subsidies and benefits, and only acting Catholic when they need cover for their sins... etc., etc...
Just a weak, spineless bunch of peasants who couldn't wait to ditch the rules needed to run a modern society just so they could crawl back to their old ways: patriarchy, theft, hypocrisy, and fake morality...

rowdypanther12 said:I have to agree with you. A huge part of the issue is parents who just go through the motions and enroll their kids in religious education classes when they don't actually want them there. I won't get into how that affects their upbringing, since we're talking about curriculum here rather than parenting, but it provides a really skewed perspective. It's easy to overlook a couple of kids in a class, but when you have five, six, or seven of them in every single grade, the whole dynamic changes.
That doesn't excuse the school districts from their responsibility—they should be looking out for every single child—but there's no denying that many parents are contributing to the problem.

Facts. Like they say in Django Unchained: the house slave is the biggest racist...
so these people who act all crazy are always the first ones to throw stones just to hide how hypocritical they really are. Just think about it—imagine how different things would look if everyone like that actually spoke up and said they didn't want their kids in those classes, especially when it messes up their whole schedule. They’d solve the whole religious ed problem in a heartbeat...

neontinker5 said:Adam and Eve weren't even real people; ever since evolutionary theory took hold, the whole thing has been treated as a metaphor, so I’m not even sure where the concept of Original Sin comes from. 😁

Two things keep this subject alive in our education system, and they are equally critical: the influence of the Vatican and the sheer stubbornness of a massive, misguided segment of the population against the "establishment." Religious studies don't actually instill positive values in children, even when we discuss values we can all agree on. Kids just sit there staring at the clock, counting down the forty-five minutes until they can escape, while their friends on the other side of the wall are running through the hallways or hanging out in the library just waiting for the bell to ring. That money could be better spent upgrading school facilities or investing in economic innovation. But since it has always been the fashion for conservatives to dig their heels in to protect their own interests, we will continue to have religious instruction in our schools.

but if you follow that logic, it implies none of the other figures existed either, like Moses or Jesus... 😉

the issue with religion is how it simplifies natural processes by personifying them. most people don't realize it's just personification, so they take these characters and their deeds as literal historical facts.
honestly, the problem with the church here in America is that it actively promotes this totally flawed way of understanding religious philosophy. that’s exactly why I don't want my kid learning about religion from such primitive sources. if you compare it to the university system, you reach the depressing conclusion that the entire American education system works the exact same way. professors at colleges are stuck using outdated theories and old-school methods because just like our national approach to religion, we haven't progressed in knowledge—we're actually regressing. it’s honestly fascinating to me that my kid hasn't learned anything useful in two months; school feels more like daycare now (and a worse one than the one they went to, where the teachers were trained to provide actual quality education through advanced developmental programs)...
so, the takeaway is that there's a systematic dumbing down happening in America. I don't want to point fingers at anyone specifically, but if you try to connect the theology departments with the philosophy departments, you can see a pattern of who's actually responsible for this intellectual stagnation at every level...

I mean, you only have to look at Western Europe or the UK to see they sorted out their issues with religion ages ago—some even did it 400 years ago during the Reformation. meanwhile, we're still over here struggling with fairy tales and nonsense, acting like a kid is a sinner by default because of "original sin." the best response to that question is just "mind your own business"...

rowdypanther12 said:The lack of secularism shows up more in how other subjects are taught than in the mere existence of religious studies, even when they're squeezed into the middle of a class period.

Those two things shouldn't be exclusive. We need to ditch the religious classes entirely AND strip all those religious undertones out of the actual curriculum too...

Karen Richardson3 said:Questions:

1. For all the Americans out there who identify as atheists or believers but still think religious education shouldn't be part of the public school curriculum:

What's the actual logic behind saying the government isn't truly secular just because religion is taught in classrooms? Do you really think other Western nations—places that aren't strictly religious cultures but still include religious studies in their schools—are somehow non-secular?

2. For the folks who support religious classes because they believe it teaches kids about ethics and morality:

If that’s the case, would you be okay with scrapping specific religious instruction entirely—since, let's face it, Catholic instruction is specifically about teaching the tenets of that faith rather than just being a general guide on "being a good kid"—and replacing it with a mandatory Ethics course for every single student, regardless of what they believe?

And honestly, how do you even draw a line between someone's personal ethics and their religious identity? When you look at the facts, faith doesn't actually define whether a person is a saint or a sinner, especially when you see plenty of religious people doing absolutely terrible things, ranging from theft and murder to much darker stuff.
At the end of the day, skepticism is really a product of the modern era; not too long ago, almost everyone believed in some kind of deity, and the amount of bad stuff humans were pulling wasn't exactly small.

It’s definitely not secular. Secularism means a total separation of church and state. Period. That means everything the government touches has to be completely free of religious influence. Since schools are public institutions, religious studies shouldn't have any business being part of the official curriculum... I don't have a problem with schools letting churches rent out space for religious classes, but that should be an after-school activity, not part of the actual school day...

Karen Richardson3 said:Questions:

1. For all the Americans out there who identify as atheists or believers but still think religious education shouldn't be part of the public school curriculum:

What's the actual logic behind saying the government isn't truly secular just because religion is taught in classrooms? Do you really think other Western nations—places that aren't strictly religious cultures but still include religious studies in their schools—are somehow non-secular?

2. For the folks who support religious classes because they believe it teaches kids about ethics and morality:

If that’s the case, would you be okay with scrapping specific religious instruction entirely—since, let's face it, Catholic instruction is specifically about teaching the tenets of that faith rather than just being a general guide on "being a good kid"—and replacing it with a mandatory Ethics course for every single student, regardless of what they believe?

And honestly, how do you even draw a line between someone's personal ethics and their religious identity? When you look at the facts, faith doesn't actually define whether a person is a saint or a sinner, especially when you see plenty of religious people doing absolutely terrible things, ranging from theft and murder to much darker stuff.
At the end of the day, skepticism is really a product of the modern era; not too long ago, almost everyone believed in some kind of deity, and the amount of bad stuff humans were pulling wasn't exactly small.

Totally. A lot of European Union countries, including the US, aren't even close to what actual secularism looks like. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing—especially if a nation thrives because of that community connection. But the issue I see with Americans is that we don't actually prosper because of religion. If anything, religion has always been the thing pushing us toward being submissive and stuck in this outdated, servant-class mindset, just like it does today. On the flip side, look at how things work in places like Denmark, where you have Krifa—that influential association of Christian labor unions. They’re an actual organization fighting for better worker rights based on Christian values. That is worlds away from our version, where you've got these feudalistic priests more interested in building themselves monuments out of onyx than actually helping people. They lose their minds the second some progressive Pope suggests the church should actually try to connect with real people... So, the real problem isn't religion itself, it's the way it's used by certain people here to spread a primitive worldview...

Karen Richardson3 said:Questions:

1. For all the Americans out there who identify as atheists or believers but still think religious education shouldn't be part of the public school curriculum:

What's the actual logic behind saying the government isn't truly secular just because religion is taught in classrooms? Do you really think other Western nations—places that aren't strictly religious cultures but still include religious studies in their schools—are somehow non-secular?

2. For the folks who support religious classes because they believe it teaches kids about ethics and morality:

If that’s the case, would you be okay with scrapping specific religious instruction entirely—since, let's face it, Catholic instruction is specifically about teaching the tenets of that faith rather than just being a general guide on "being a good kid"—and replacing it with a mandatory Ethics course for every single student, regardless of what they believe?

And honestly, how do you even draw a line between someone's personal ethics and their religious identity? When you look at the facts, faith doesn't actually define whether a person is a saint or a sinner, especially when you see plenty of religious people doing absolutely terrible things, ranging from theft and murder to much darker stuff.
At the end of the day, skepticism is really a product of the modern era; not too long ago, almost everyone believed in some kind of deity, and the amount of bad stuff humans were pulling wasn't exactly small.

See, that’s exactly where it gets messy: ethics and morality are two totally different beasts that can end up looking at the same problem from opposite sides...
So, I was just digging into this whole "ethics vs. morals" debate... it’s actually pretty wild how much people mix them up. Basically, think of it like this: Morals are that internal compass you carry around. It's your personal gut feeling about what's right and wrong—the stuff your family or your upbringing drilled into your head. It's deeply personal, almost instinctive... Ethics? That’s a different beast entirely. Ethics are the external rules provided by an outside source, like your job or a professional organization. Like, if you're working at a big firm in NYC, there's a code of conduct you have to follow regardless of how you feel personally. You might personally disagree with a rule, but ethically, you still gotta play by the book... One is about who you are deep down, and the other is about how you act within a specific group or system. They overlap a lot, sure, but they aren't the same thing at all...

The biggest issue right now is how the church sticks its nose into ethics and tries to dictate the rules for society on everything from marriage and death to abortion and education... all based on these primitive, outdated views. And it’s even worse because certain people within the church—and I’m being careful not to say "religious people," since most aren't even religious fanatics who just use faith to vent their frustrations—these specific types feel like they have the right to call the shots... forcing it... People love telling everyone else how to live their lives. In actually secular countries, people just lead by example and show you how it's done through their own actions. But here? It's just our backwater priests preaching at us when they can't even set a decent example themselves with their own trash morality...

So here's my bottom line: since schools basically bake a certain worldview into everything they teach, I really don't want my kid getting brainwashed by those primitive ideas the local church keeps pushing on Americans... but if they were spreading prosperity-driven ideas like Krifa does in Denmark, then I'd actually be all for it

Susan James said:Hehe, looks like they’re keeping tabs on us too! A religious studies teacher from St. Louis was actually writing about Catholics and those who oppose religious education in schools.

I don't want to just copy and paste the whole thing (though it's definitely worth a read), but they make a great point about how school religious ed classes are starting to branch out—targeting people who aren't even part of the local parish.

A lot of this stuff gets pushed onto society in such a passive way.

The sad part is that things like altruism and helping others should really be woven into every single subject, including building healthy teacher-student relationships and encouraging kindness among kids. Instead, some of these religious instructors act like their own little club, as if you can only learn those values by sitting in their specific classroom.

Ugh... this text is way too stiff. It’s got that typical self-righteous vibe, like "we're the only smart ones who actually get it while everyone else is just a bunch of sheep"...

So, how would you even say "don't feed the trolls"...?

Rachel Young3 said:Religious studies was basically just a free GPA boost for everyone since we all got an automatic A... plus, the teacher spent most of the time rambling about his own life stories instead of actually teaching us anything about God anyway...

yeah, right... think again
my religion teacher back in the early '90s was basically a priest-in-training who ended up running the local parish, and let me tell you, those classes were anything but an "easy A." This guy was something else—he straight up bought a new car with church funds, and when someone scratched it, he’d drag us kids into class and psychologically torment us until someone confessed. Honestly, I still have no clue who did it, and it probably wasn't even one of us, just some random person from the neighborhood. He also made us collect these little stamps to prove we went to Mass, otherwise, we couldn't move on to communion...
since I'm one of the few people who actually signed up for religious studies before it was even part of the school curriculum—just because I was genuinely curious about the mysticism behind it all—all I really walked away with was trauma and this constant, nagging guilt about potentially offending God. And I definitely didn't want to pass that fear onto my kid, who's growing up totally innocent...

The thing is, they're both right: why on earth would anyone do work they aren't getting paid for?
But then again, you look at professors today and they're basically just ghosts—they don't even do what we're actually paying them to do. Like, instead of teaching kids how to read, they just dump homework on us parents and expect us to be the tutors. I get that practice makes perfect, but why am I the one grinding with my kid when I’m already paying the school and the teachers to handle that during class hours? I remember back in elementary school, we had to practice reading during school time, and if you didn't nail it, your grade took a hit. My parents never sat down to drill me on reading (and yeah, my grades suffered because of it), but nowadays, it's totally standard for parents to have to teach everything at home. So what's the point of school then? It's honestly depressing that I have to tell my kid not to burn herself out over schoolwork—to learn what she can, sure, but not to obsess over the grades... because a GPA isn't some indicator of her actual worth or what she truly knows.

And while we're on the subject of religion, it sucks that those of us raised Christian—even though we've woken up from that sheep mentality—have to fight this battle against religious extremists ourselves. We're trying not to subject our kids to that brainwashing, while people from other faiths are basically playing dead and sending their kids to those classes just out of fear (I've seen it happen at my little girl's school)