Posts by Peter Palmer

Susan Patel55 said:Hey everyone. My mom took out an auto loan back in mid-2007—$17,000 via a Swiss Franc Loan over a 7-year term. It’s not a massive fortune, but because of how much the Swiss Franc spiked, she ended up paying way more than she ever should have. I’m trying to figure out if it's even worth the headache to file a lawsuit. Is the potential payout actually going to cover the legal fees and attorney costs? If it makes sense to go after them, does anyone know a solid lawyer in the Chicago area who specializes in this kind of thing? From what I can tell, this is a slam dunk since the loan wasn't converted and she was stuck paying it right when the Swiss Franc started its climb.

Look, if $5,000 or $6,000 isn't worth anything to you, then don't bother.

redpuma24 said:Dear colleagues who also held a Swiss Franc Loan, I would love to ask for some advice. I had a variable-rate Swiss Franc Loan during an incredibly short and stressful period before I finally managed to close it out with a different loan (a Euro-based one through a local credit union with a fixed rate, which I am still paying off). Dealing with that old Swiss Franc Loan from Wells Fargo (I eventually paid it back to the heirs of JPMorgan Chase customers) cost me a fortune and even more peace of mind. Given recent court rulings, I’m hoping to recover at least a portion of those losses if it's possible.

The mortgage was for 106,000 CHF, taken out in May 2007 (the exchange rate was $1.50 per 1 CHF, meaning I received 479 $284, with an interest rate of 4.59%), and I paid it off early in January 2013 (the rate then was $2.00 per 1 CHF, meaning I paid back 667 $55, though my interest rate had gradually climbed to 5.80% during that time). My monthly payment rose from 542.77 CHF to 617.79 CHF. By my math, I ended up paying the bank at least 25,000 dollars more than what I originally borrowed, though I'll certainly seek a professional expert's calculation. To clarify, I settled the loan before the conversion options were even made available.

Do I have any grounds to sue the bank, and what are my chances of success? On what basis would be best to file a claim? Also, does anyone have a recommendation for a good lawyer in Washington, D.C., who specializes in these types of cases and works with reasonable fees (feel free to PM me)?

Thank you all in advance for any information, and please excuse me if this has already been covered extensively on previous pages.

Absolutely. Especially since we're talking about JPMorgan Chase, you have until 2023 to see if they declare everything completely null and void.

If not, you can sue based on the invalidity of the contract terms.

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Jerry Williams53 said:Exactly. No right to "their" specific interest. But if the contract is voided, the victim (the consumer) is entitled to statutory default interest on every single payment made to the bank.
The amount involved isn't exactly small...

On a car loan of about 100 $0.00, the fees end up being more than double what you actually overpaid. 🙂

Timothy Kim9 said:Nothingness basically means—everyone gets back exactly what they put in.
No one side has any right to claim some "special" interest rate.

That ruling isn't ever going to happen.

I wouldn't say that bolded part is actually true. If someone is responsible for making a contract null and void, they should still be on the hook for late fees. And I mean on the total amount paid, not just some fraction.

Benjamin Jones82 said:🤦 Fine... where did I ever claim I was suing specifically for the invalidity of the currency clause?
I’ve been saying all along that I’m suing to void the whole contract 🍿 ...it was a rhetorical question and I have no desire to keep arguing about it...
At the end of the day, this kind of lawsuit isn't for everyone. It doesn't make financial sense for every single person; it really comes down to sitting with your attorney and deciding what makes sense for your specific situation. I closed my loan before the conversion, so for me, it's worth it... it's a matter of personal judgment.

I don't understand why you're lecturing me about it not being "certain."
Did I ever say this was a guaranteed win?
Of course nothing in life is a certainty, especially when dealing with the American court system, but if you don't fight, you won't get anything...🤔

It feels like we're speaking the same language here, yet you're accusing me of things I never actually said...🤔

Whatever. In the end... my support goes out to anyone choosing to take legal action...🎉 🎉

Here:

Benjamin Jones82 said:Clearly I wasn't being clear enough in my previous posts, so my apologies.
That third lawsuit concerns the currency—essentially, making the whole contract null and void.
It’s one and the same thing...
The bank would owe me back every cent I ever gave them, plus penalty interest. If I win the case, I won't owe them a dime because the statute of limitations on their claims against me expired long ago. Hopefully, that clarifies things a bit more.

..and yes... lawsuits don't cancel each other out. Whatever is awarded in each individual case needs to be paid.

Look, you guys are jumping between talking about exchange rates and total invalidity. Don't take this personally, but people read into things. When things get confusing, they hesitate. I know a few people who backed out of legal action because the messaging was too muddled...

Benjamin Jones82 said:🤦 Fine... where did I ever claim I was suing specifically for the invalidity of the currency clause?
I’ve been saying all along that I’m suing to void the whole contract 🍿 ...it was a rhetorical question and I have no desire to keep arguing about it...
At the end of the day, this kind of lawsuit isn't for everyone. It doesn't make financial sense for every single person; it really comes down to sitting with your attorney and deciding what makes sense for your specific situation. I closed my loan before the conversion, so for me, it's worth it... it's a matter of personal judgment.

I don't understand why you're lecturing me about it not being "certain."
Did I ever say this was a guaranteed win?
Of course nothing in life is a certainty, especially when dealing with the American court system, but if you don't fight, you won't get anything...🤔

It feels like we're speaking the same language here, yet you're accusing me of things I never actually said...🤔

Whatever. In the end... my support goes out to anyone choosing to take legal action...🎉 🎉

I'm not trying to argue, I'm just correcting the terminology so people don't get mixed up.

Benjamin Jones82 said:🤦 Fine... where did I ever claim I was suing specifically for the invalidity of the currency clause?
I’ve been saying all along that I’m suing to void the whole contract 🍿 ...it was a rhetorical question and I have no desire to keep arguing about it...
At the end of the day, this kind of lawsuit isn't for everyone. It doesn't make financial sense for every single person; it really comes down to sitting with your attorney and deciding what makes sense for your specific situation. I closed my loan before the conversion, so for me, it's worth it... it's a matter of personal judgment.

I don't understand why you're lecturing me about it not being "certain."
Did I ever say this was a guaranteed win?
Of course nothing in life is a certainty, especially when dealing with the American court system, but if you don't fight, you won't get anything...🤔

It feels like we're speaking the same language here, yet you're accusing me of things I never actually said...🤔

Whatever. In the end... my support goes out to anyone choosing to take legal action...🎉 🎉

I have no clue why anyone took that as an endorsement. 🙂
Good luck to that absolute zero.

I didn't side with that total loser because nobody actually knows how the statute of limitations applies to voiding these contracts.

Benjamin Jones82 said:So that’s the gist of it... the currency clause is an invalid provision, which nullifies the whole contract. I don't see what the debate is about here. 🤔

I appreciate the effort to break down the math, but it wasn't necessary. I get your point, which is exactly why I already asked my attorney—and I've given you the answer I received.
Anyway, I'll check back in a year, or as soon as the court-appointed expert report comes in. I'm just as interested in the outcome as anyone else.

There isn't much to debate, but technically you aren't suing to invalidate just the currency clause—you're going after the entire contract. You know how the law works; if you change the order of three words, suddenly everyone has a different interpretation.

By the way, that class-action ruling (the reason why every lawsuit claiming a specific provision is invalid is basically a slam dunk) was about the INVALIDITY OF THE PROVISION, not the invalidity of the entire contract.

So, there’s no guarantee you can claim the whole contract is void because of the VK or the interest rates (even if common sense tells you it should be)... nor is there anything in the class-action precedent to back that up. That contract will only be declared void if a judge decides it is. This type of lawsuit isn't nearly as certain as the ones targeting the specific provision itself.

Benjamin Jones82 said:So that’s the gist of it... the currency clause is an invalid provision, which nullifies the whole contract. I don't see what the debate is about here. 🤔

I appreciate the effort to break down the math, but it wasn't necessary. I get your point, which is exactly why I already asked my attorney—and I've given you the answer I received.
Anyway, I'll check back in a year, or as soon as the court-appointed expert report comes in. I'm just as interested in the outcome as anyone else.

Look, I'm interested too, but I can say with pretty high certainty that the lawyer is talking absolute nonsense here.

Benjamin Jones82 said:I'm not a legal scholar; I'm speaking from a consumer's perspective.
I am suing the bank regarding the "currency clause," which effectively leads to seeking the nullification of the whole contract. I don't know how else to put it. I'm using layman's terms when I say it's a lawsuit for nullity.

Regarding point number two... about this overpaid interest being returned to me: I am telling you exactly what my lawyer told me when I asked him the same question you're asking now. It wasn't clear to me either at the time.

These lawsuits don't cancel each other out. If I win the case for contract nullification, I get back every single installment plus late fees calculated for each payment, along with that large lump sum I used to close the loan early—plus interest on that, too.

The fact that I won this specific litigation doesn't prove anything. That's just what my lawyer said. If he's lying, then I suppose I am too.

In any case, I'll let you know in a year who was right.👍

Look, I’m no lawyer, and I don't spend my days digging through legal briefs, but let's be honest: people using casual slang to describe serious stuff can get incredibly confusing. 🙂 You’re basically suing to void the entire contract by proving that the currency clause is invalid—arguing that without it, the whole deal falls apart. So, you've got lawsuits targeting specific unenforceable clauses, and then you've got lawsuits aimed at killing the entire agreement altogether. 🙂

Benjamin Jones82 said:I'm not a legal scholar; I'm speaking from a consumer's perspective.
I am suing the bank regarding the "currency clause," which effectively leads to seeking the nullification of the whole contract. I don't know how else to put it. I'm using layman's terms when I say it's a lawsuit for nullity.

Regarding point number two... about this overpaid interest being returned to me: I am telling you exactly what my lawyer told me when I asked him the same question you're asking now. It wasn't clear to me either at the time.

These lawsuits don't cancel each other out. If I win the case for contract nullification, I get back every single installment plus late fees calculated for each payment, along with that large lump sum I used to close the loan early—plus interest on that, too.

The fact that I won this specific litigation doesn't prove anything. That's just what my lawyer said. If he's lying, then I suppose I am too.

In any case, I'll let you know in a year who was right.👍

You might want to run that by a lawyer one more time. Seriously. Let’s say you somehow managed to get the entire contract voided—you think the bank is just going to sit back? They'll be at your door demanding $200 before you can even blink. $0.00So, those numbers came out exactly how you laid it out—the bank is refunding everything paid back, interest and all. Regarding that 200... $0.00, 50 $0.00 It’s all wasted on interest. Those monthly payments you're making already include the interest portions. You guys were already paid out on those interests back when that first court ruling became final.

Look, you guys should have been getting a $50 payout by now. $0.00That’s an extra $150,000 if you win that second lawsuit, bringing the total to $200,000. $0.00Your lawyer is telling you that you’re going to walk away with 250. $0.00Basically, what this means is that the bank will end up owing you about 50 bucks back in overpaid interest. $0.00 Pay twice for the same thing? I wouldn't call that a good deal.

Benjamin Jones82 said:Clearly I wasn't being clear enough in my previous posts, so my apologies.
That third lawsuit concerns the currency—essentially, making the whole contract null and void.
It’s one and the same thing...
The bank would owe me back every cent I ever gave them, plus penalty interest. If I win the case, I won't owe them a dime because the statute of limitations on their claims against me expired long ago. Hopefully, that clarifies things a bit more.

..and yes... lawsuits don't cancel each other out. Whatever is awarded in each individual case needs to be paid.

Look, this just isn't right. They aren't the same thing. There's a difference between "void provisions" and a "void contract." In the first case, you're looking at interest rates and currency clauses. In the second, you have a "void contract"—that's when a judge decides the entire agreement can't stand because the core terms are invalid.

So, suing over the currency clause is NOT THE SAME as suing to void the entire contract.

P.S. If you actually win on the grounds of the contract being void, the bank pays out everything you listed, which includes those overpaid interest amounts. Since you've already been paid that, I don't see any way they’d pay you twice for the exact same thing.

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You really should have sued over the currency exchange issue too, especially since you finished paying it off before the conversion happened. But honestly, if you’re going after the whole contract being declared void and actually win, there shouldn't be any reason to complain.

From what I understand, once you secure a judgment for those overpaid interest charges and then pivot to suing for total invalidity and win, you end up with the amount you were actually supposed to pay (all those installments plus interest, minus the principal), just offset by whatever they already paid you from the first ruling. So, even if you successfully sued for the currency difference and won, the net gain would just be swallowed up by the difference in the two payouts. In the end, it basically evens out to the same thing.

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Late fees kick in immediately from the day any payment is missed.

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amberfalcon23 said:Has anyone actually received a calculation where default interest was applied individually to every single payment made up to the settlement date? I’ve come across two different court expert reports where this wasn't factored in, and frankly, it makes a massive difference. The Franks movement calculator (which is offline right now) accounted for that interest, and that’s how I’m calculating it too. It’s basic logic: default interest should accrue from the moment the overpayment occurs, and that date changes with every single payment. You can only draw a line and calculate a final total for further interest once the debt stops growing—either through final payoff or conversion (if the lawsuit covers the period up to conversion).

I should point out that you shouldn't blindly trust these calculations, even when they come from a court-appointed expert. I personally reviewed an expert report regarding overpaid interest prepared by a permanent court expert that was flawed in several areas, causing significant damage to the plaintiff. In another report, the principal overpayment during the final debt settlement was only factored into the exchange rate difference calculation. If you're filing one massive lawsuit, it might not matter much, but if you're suing specifically for overpaid interest, the plaintiff loses out on the portion of the principal overpayment caused by interest rate shifts rather than just currency fluctuations.

If you have a decent handle on Excel and a basic understanding of how historical default interest rates move, you can figure this out yourself. Especially when you're just looking for the overpayment amount (which is the key part for filing a lawsuit); they calculate the default interest based on the judgment date anyway, so you don't need to sue for that specific part.

velvetcobra3 said:Hey there,

Can someone who actually knows what's going on break this down for me? I'm a total newbie when it comes to all these lawsuits regarding Swiss Franc Loans, and I’m feeling pretty lost... Basically, back in 2008, I took out a Swiss Franc Loan for about $75,000. Then in 2015, I did a conversion to turn it into a standard Dollar loan—the bank basically recalculated everything as if it had been a Dollar loan from the start and offered me a payout for the overpaid difference from when it was still a Swiss Franc loan. I used that extra cash to pay the whole thing off early, which actually shaved two years off my term since it was supposed to run until 2017... By doing that, instead of paying roughly $12,500 in interest, I ended up only paying about $11,800.

So, looking at all this legal stuff happening now, which part of my situation would even be eligible for a lawsuit, and what kind of amount could I realistically be looking at for a claim...

Just take the original installment and interest, then calculate the difference for every single payment you've made. On top of that little gap, you can also expect to tack on default interest for every one of those installments.

Honestly, reading through all these questions, I’m not even surprised that banks are betting on the fact that most people won't bother suing.

Look, there’s already a class-action judgment where eight different banks were sued and they lost—both on the interest and the Currency clause. As of yesterday, it’s officially clear that those who had their loans converted can also file suit.

Basically, anyone who took out a Swiss Franc Loan from those eight banks has an excellent shot at winning their case. Just a heads-up, though: the statute of limitations for interest on all those banks except Wells Fargo or Chase kicks in on June 12, 2019.

So, if you're actually thinking about taking legal action, you better move fast.

I I have another question, though it’s about an Euro Loan rather than a Swiss Franc Loan.

So, here’s the deal: I took out a mortgage back in January 2009. And honestly, they were playing games with the interest rates back then too.

1) Does this whole "null and void" thing regarding interest rates apply to Euro Loans as well?

2) If my loan agreement was signed on January 16, 2009, but this Supreme Court ruling only covers loans taken out up until December 31, 2008—missing it by a measly 16 days—do I actually have any ground to stand on to cite this ruling?

Timothy Kim9 said:Look, I’m no expert—but from what I’ve gathered,
your Excel sheet might actually be a decent starting point.
The court's job is just going to be appointing someone to handle the
official math for the proceedings, and once that's done, the big banks won't have anything left to argue about.

I reached out to Bank of America, and they told me the fee is $5.00 per line item, capped at $93. Basically, one transaction equals one fee.

I actually dug up their lending documentation where that number is listed, but it also mentions there's no fee if it's done under a court order. 🙂

I've got a few questions... if anyone knows the deal, I'd really appreciate the help...

So, back in 2007, I took out a Swiss Franc Loan for a car. I finished paying it off in 2013 and everything seemed fine, but now I realize I'm entitled to a refund—interest, exchange rate differences, late fees, all of it. Here’s what I'm stuck on.

1) If I'm reading this right, the contract was declared void. Does that mean they just look at the difference between what I actually paid and what I received? Or is it the difference between my actual payments and what I *would* have paid if the exchange rate and interest had stayed the same as when I started?

2) How does the late interest get calculated? I found an online calculator, but I can't figure out if they calculate it based on the total amount from the date the loan was settled, or if they have to calculate it individually for every single monthly payment from 2007 until the end.

3) I keep a record of all my payments in Excel, but obviously, that isn't legal proof. Is Bank of America obligated to provide me with an official statement of all payments made toward that specific loan? I get that they'll charge me for the paperwork, but there's no way I can sue them based on my own Excel spreadsheet.

What a mess with picking a host, especially right when we actually needed one...