Amanda Jackson5 said:Sure, it might be a factor, but it’s hardly the defining characteristic. It's like saying drug use is central to rock music—it exists there, sure, but it isn't the soul of the genre. You can't argue that rock music or a counterculture ceases to exist just because you take the drugs out of the equation.
I haven't. What's the gist of it?
We’ll just have to wait and see if that part actually matters or not.
Weekend Warrior
Amanda Jackson5 said:Sure, it might be a factor, but it’s hardly the defining characteristic. It's like saying drug use is central to rock music—it exists there, sure, but it isn't the soul of the genre. You can't argue that rock music or a counterculture ceases to exist just because you take the drugs out of the equation.
I haven't. What's the gist of it?
So, Reich wrote about the three levels of consciousness. The foundational mindset starts with that classic Wild West persona. Think of the rugged frontiersman—a true individualist who lives by a strict "every man for himself" code, with God watching over it all.
The typical consciousness of the mid-century American is exactly what we’re talking about here. It’s that conservative, deeply conformist mindset where a person's entire sense of self-worth is tied to external validation—whether that's prestige from their university, approval from their employer, or just keeping up appearances with the neighbors. It is the quintessential one-dimensional rebel described by Marcuse.
The "Third Consciousness" concept was actually quite groundbreaking when that book came out back in 1970. It describes a whole new counterculture. A typical person in this movement tends to be deeply skeptical—not just of the government, but of older generations and established rules in general. They’re very direct, act naturally, and have a real appetite for experimentation, whether that’s through things like marijuana or other lifestyle shifts. They’re playful, open-minded, and driven by one core value: absolute freedom.
Amanda Jackson5 said:Look, I might be a fan of the counterculture, but I draw the line at drug addiction. True counterculture is supposed to be about emancipation, whereas being hooked on substances is about as far from freedom as you can get. Even this idea of emancipation proposed by Zerzan completely misses the mark. Civilization is actually what provides us with liberation from the brutal demands of nature, yet Zerzan seems hell-bent on dragging us right back into its teeth.
Drug use is essentially a pillar of counterculture, much like that craving for raw, unmediated experience or trying to break free from the constraints of time. Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if Zerzan himself was a former sixties activist.
Have you ever read Charles Reich's *Greening of America*?
"Nowadays, it’s almost considered common sense—if not a requirement—to assume that culture has always existed and will continue indefinitely. Yet, it’s pretty clear there was an incredibly long period of non-symbolic human existence, perhaps a hundred times longer than civilization itself. During that era, culture actually developed at the expense of nature. But today, it feels like symbolism—much like alienation—is viewed as eternal. This makes any questions about our origins or ultimate goals feel pointless. We’re so trapped within the logic of objectification that those calling for new rituals or symbolic ways to 're-enchant' life are completely missing the mark. You can't fix something with symbols when what we lost was gone long before symbols even mattered. As Lévi-Strauss (1978) suggested, he was thinking of a specific kind of wisdom used by ancient peoples—a wisdom that people in the modern world often mistake for pure madness."
It really comes down to a choice: either return to that non-symbolic health that once existed in all its fullness, or face madness and death. Culture has essentially led us to betray our own ancient spirit and wholeness, dragging us into an increasingly artificial, isolating, and draining world of alienation. That doesn't mean there aren't small, everyday joys left that keep us human. But as our situation worsens, it becomes clearer just how much of ourselves we have to erase in order to find any kind of redemption."
Gerald Jackson48 said:Yeah, I see he’s making a more specific distinction there. But honestly, those hippies my cousin used to hang out with avoided society as much as they possibly could. They couldn't be totally off the grid, sure, but nobody was working some typical nine-to-five corporate grind, if you know what I mean.
It reminds me of how Marx argued that capitalism would eventually collapse under its own weight; this guy is making a similar case against civilization itself. Essentially, these primitives are just waiting for the inevitable downfall of modern society.
Gerald Jackson48 said:In the end, these things usually spiral into something straight out of The beach by Boyl starring DiCaprio. I always think of that movie when this stuff comes up.
The closest thing to this I've seen was my cousin. He lived in one of those nomadic hippie communes.
Luckily, it didn't end too badly for him. A childhood friend invited him to a wedding, and once the commune found out, they basically excommunicated him. They accused him of "hanging out with the bourgeoisie and people who actually get married in the traditional way" back here in America.
The biggest blow was losing his gear. They seized all his equipment, so he had to give up his stage name. That was the end of DJ techno Ranger.
Actually, Zerzan isn't calling for people to start communes. He's just arguing that true "primitive" living is impossible as long as civilization exists.
Gerald Jackson48 said:Unless we're talking about causing potentially fatal respiratory depression, like when someone overdoses on opioids.
To be honest, looking at how things are going, I don't see how anyone's lifespan would be particularly long in Zerzanov's utopia. But hey, maybe I'm wrong and maybe Zerzan thought of something I missed.
Or maybe he's just one of those guys who thinks life expectancy isn't all that important, as long as you're living authentically—you know, staying true to yourself and being happy.
Zoroasterix?
Most of Zerzan's books focus on critiquing civilization and everything he deems part of it, while praising pre-civilized ways of life. You won't find much in the way of practical advice or blueprints for a "primitive future," much like how Marx rarely gets into the nitty-gritty details of communism.
From what I've gathered, he definitely leans toward that second perspective.
Amanda Jackson5 said:So, how are they any different from intravenous drug addicts? If anything, the junkies are much more direct when it comes to their desires and how they actually live them out.
There are definitely parallels there with the hippies and the counterculture of the sixties. Besides, since you were praising Zabriskie Point, I'm guessing you're a fan of the counterculture movement too.
For instance, Jensen has been quite vocal about the idea that humans are essentially natural beings who have simply overshot their mark. His argument is pretty straightforward: we don't actually have anything to gain from space exploration or setting up colonies on Mars. Since we were built for life here on Earth, our entire destiny is tied to this planet.
Amanda Jackson5 said:But honestly, that feels like an incredibly shortsighted way to look at the situation. For starters, I’m not equating immediacy with nothingness. Beyond that, even if we concede that the modern American is somewhat detached from nature in the sense that they aren't constantly brushing up against wild animals or plants, you could just as easily argue that through scientific understanding, we actually have a more direct connection to the natural world—at least intellectually—because we aren't busy interpreting everything through mystical fairy tales. Besides, those very narratives serve as a sort of cognitive bridge; after all, Theodor Adorno might suggest that mythology is essentially the precursor to the Enlightenment. And finally, I assume you meant that indigenous people function without mediation rather than without immediacy? If that's what you meant, then it's a total illusion. They exist in a state of immediate being that is, in itself, deeply mediated—not just by the myths and religions mentioned above, but by the very structure of their existence. Every relationship like that is a dance between the mediated and the immediate. You can't really pull one thread without unraveling the other; they are correlative concepts. At the end of the day, you can't grasp anything without acknowledging that dialectical unity of opposites.
The thing is, anarcho-primitivists aren't really hunting for "cognitive truth." They're looking for happiness found in a perceived sense of immediacy. As for narratives, even Zerzan isn't so blind as to miss the fact that mythology is itself an attempt at understanding. He isn't trying to regress into some imaginary state older than that.
Not all anarcho-primitivists agree on this, either. Some find tribal mythology or religion perfectly acceptable, provided it emerged organically—meaning it grew naturally from tribal stories rather than being an imported faith.
At the end of the day, I gave you that quote for a reason: Zerzan is interested in a certain kind of liberation of eros within nature through animalistic existence. Intellectual knowledge itself doesn't interest him; if anything, he believes humans can forgo it in exchange for true happiness.
"I am writing in a language (obviously), fully aware that language itself objectifies the very resistance to being objectified. As T. S. Eliot put it: 'I must use words while I speak to you.' We might imagine replacing this sense of entrapment with a brilliant, shimmering present—but only if we can actually envision a world without the division of labor, a world free from that rift between humanity and nature that gives rise to ideology and power. Without language, living in this world would be impossible, which only highlights how radically we need to transform it.
Words betray a certain sadness; we use them to try and fill the void of unbridled time. We’ve all felt that longing to move past it, to go deeper than mere words, to shed the constant need to narrate our lives. There's a realization that when life becomes truly coherent, the need to express that coherence simply vanishes.
A profound truth lies in the understanding that 'lovers don't need words.' It’s about striving for the world of lovers—a world of face-to-face connection where even names can be forgotten, a world that understands that the true opposite of ignorance isn't knowledge, but enchantment. Only a politics that seeks to dissolve both language and time can truly be considered visionary, driven by genuine passion."
Look, John Zerzan would probably argue that by equating immediacy with nothingness, you're just proving how detached you've become from the physical and natural world. He’d likely point to indigenous communities as an example—people who thrive perfectly well without needing all that modern mediation.
Amanda Jackson5 said:If we follow that logic, it implies that being human is essentially undesirable. It feels like a romanticization of a primitive, animalistic existence—likely flavored with secularized millenarian ideas and those "emanation" theories where being further from the "source" equates to a worse, uglier, more difficult existence. And if that's the case, why stop at criticizing civilization? We could just spiral into an infinite regression. You can actually find similar lines of thought in places you wouldn't expect, like among biologists, where some even argue that life itself is inherently self-destructive. Peter Ward calls this the Medea Hypothesis (as a counterpoint to the Lovelockian Gaia hypothesis):
In contrast to the Gaia hypothesis (or theory), which is named after a nurturing mother figure or Mother Nature, Ward proposes a hypothesis named after a much more toxic maternal figure—Medea. What’s the core idea? There is a fundamental tendency within life around us, including our own species, to make the Earth less hospitable for life, ultimately rendering it "uninhabitable." Throughout history, the evolution of life has triggered a series of catastrophes that were devastating for biological stability (which Ward refers to as Medean events), and it will continue to do so. Instead of the "return to nature" advocated by environmental movements, people should focus on practical work to maintain the possibility of survival for ourselves and other living beings. The reality is that we live on a planet that is aging rapidly, and if we want to survive as a species, we will soon be left with only two choices: planetary engineering or leaving the planet entirely. Rather than trying to restore the planet to its pre-human state, we should do exactly what the Gaia hypothesis suggests life does—optimize conditions for future life.
Contrary to all of that, I was raised in the spirit of the Enlightenment, so I believe in progress, and by extension, I believe in civilization. Nothing good for humanity comes from a lack of civilization. This isn't a question of immediacy versus mediation. The very essence of being human is self-awareness and intellect, which is nothing more than mediation. The further you drift into mindless instinct, the closer you get to that immediate, pulsing existence, and the further you move from a consciousness whose very core is representation. In the end, you just arrive at death and nothingness. I truly don't see how that could be considered a desirable state, especially for human beings.
In a sense, this is about renouncing humanity altogether—rejecting everything that sets us apart from animals. The idea is that humans should just be one of many species, trading our complexity for the supposed bliss of returning to a primal paradise.
Personally, I don't buy into those ideas, though there are some fascinating critiques out there, such as John Zerzan's analysis of language.
"In his book Minima Moralia, Adorno wrote: 'Happiness, like truth, is something we don't possess, yet we exist within it.' This could be a perfect way to describe the human species as it existed before the dawn of time and language—before the divisions and distances that stripped away our authenticity. Language is the core focus of this inquiry, viewed through its most destructive lens. A fragment from Nietzsche brings us into his central perspective: 'Words dilute and brutalize; words depersonalize; words make the extraordinary seem ordinary.'"
Amanda Jackson5 said:Jared Diamond once went on record arguing that the invention of agriculture was the single greatest mistake humanity ever made.
That lines up pretty closely with the primitivist view.
But John Zerzan takes it even further. He argues that the introduction of symbols and rituals actually marked the birth of civilization itself. According to John Zerzan, once we developed symbols, we created language—and through language, our direct, unmediated experience of reality began to dissolve. From there, he suggests a domino effect: social hierarchies emerge, then agriculture follows, and the rest is history.
Eco-primitivism, often called anarcho-primitivism, is this radical anarchist movement that calls for a total return to our original, primal communities. It isn’t exactly a mainstream topic here in the States. For decades, American thought has been dominated by Marx, along with some Hegel and Kant—essentially that Enlightenment school of thought that tends to be somewhat favorable toward the state, legal structures, reason, and symbolic thought.
Anarchists and Marxists split ways very early on, and they’ve never truly reconciled, even though they share a common enemy in capitalism. But anarchists don't believe you can build a better society through a communist state. Anarcho-primitivists take it a step further; they reject not just the state, but civilization itself, technology, and—according to people like John Zerzan—even symbolic thought. In his view, alienation doesn't start with class struggle like Marx argues, but with the very invention of symbols and rituals.
Essentially, John Zerzan argues that humans were truly free only in a state of immediacy, before we had the ability to describe anything because language didn't exist yet. From this perspective, the birth of symbols (and words) was the catalyst for both the rise of civilization and the inherent restlessness found within it.
The core argument of eco-primitivism goes like this: civilization isn't necessary, sustainable, or even the right direction. It’s a detour. The "true path" is how we lived for hundreds of thousands of years before organized society ever began. Some anarcho-primitivists openly advocate for violence and attacks on technology—take Derek Jensen, for example, who writes about using bombs to tear down things like dams—though most are content to stick to lectures and writing.
The way administration is handling this says enough. It feels like the moderator is drowning the philosophy of the Man Cave in pure stupidity, acting as if we don't have enough "local" nonsense to deal with already...