Posts by Robert Wright10

Mary said:So where do our differing desires, interests, and talents come from? Is it all just different perceptions of self-awareness? Pure coincidence? Why does everyone perceive things differently then? Even identical twins raised in the exact same household?

There are far too many external factors influencing
an individual's personal development
to claim they are identical
just because they happen to live under the same roof.
Ultimately, the desire for twins to be different
isn't an expression of free will;
it's a matter of self-preservation—
which, again, stems directly from genetic code.
Where is the freedom in that?

Apemant said:I don't see why I should even call unconscious "decisions" decisions, let alone view them as proof of free will. As for conscious choices, it's possible they arise within that very process of self-preservation of our consciousness, where after countless iterations, the self "forgets" exactly where the impulses for a decision originated, making it feel as though it produced the choice "entirely on its own"... Again, I fail to see why that process should be labeled "free will."

resonance 🙂

philosopher28 said:The deterministic perspective is an interesting one. However, I maintain that even if individuals were raised under identical conditions, time, and space, countless unpredictable micro-variables would still shape us into fundamentally different beings first and foremost.

I agree; even within a deterministic framework,
the resulting chaos can still provide
endless possibilities. 🙂

philosopher28 said:Secondly, plants and many animals act according to various programmed principles, yet we humans are unique due to our consciousness...
...meaning our capacity for action—shaped by will, experience, knowledge, and ignorance—is far broader than that of rocks, trees, or animals.

philosopher28, I think we're on the same page!

Hannah Thomas13 said:chicken and egg

🙂

It isn't quite just about the chicken and the egg.
I would argue that chickens didn't even exist at the start. 😬

Hannah Thomas13 said:Say, if you try meditating, you'll reach a level where you can completely ignore the flow of thoughts and intentionally shut them off, effectively reshaping the electrical and chemical activity in your brain (visually demonstrated by observing the brains of long-term meditators), which to me is ultimate proof of human will overriding physical functions.

Sure, but in order to—as you put it—consciously alter
electrical and chemical brain activity,
and directly take control of your bodily functions,
you first have to actually possess a brain.
Then we are right back to the question of where you got
that brain from—is it merely a product of nature and society,
or does your "free will" play a role here?
You didn't have any conscious influence over the formation of the brain itself
through meditation...
In my view, everything described above can be
explained without ever invoking free will,
so I see no reason to bring it into this.

Hannah Thomas13 said:Regarding the tendency toward drug use and such, it's easier to prove things there, since there are millions of examples where people in the worst possible circumstances... stayed sober, while those in ideal circumstances ended up as alcoholics or addicts.

We disagree there. A wealthy home and a good school don't necessarily mean
ideal circumstances—that's just the surface, and anything could be underneath.
If someone grows up to be an addict, clearly something went wrong with their environment
(or the intersection of environment and genetics?).
Conditions weren't ideal.
Similarly, those who grow up in poverty and broken homes,
surrounded by alcoholism and addiction,
sometimes show an absolute disdain for violence and substance abuse.
Because in those specific environments they were raised in,
certain factors aligned to allow them to do that.
They were, essentially, lucky.

Hannah Thomas13 said:...that again cannot serve as a basis for concluding that because certain actions were not the result of free will interaction, a person cannot later possess free will... ... The variable being ignored here is that human consciousness is not stationary, but develops dynamically...

That part holds up—human consciousness is definitely everything, just not static.

But then, regarding will and freedom, there are two possibilities:
Either free will is an inherent part of our existence from day one, or it manifests at some specific point in time.

Let's examine that first scenario: what does "from the beginning" actually imply?
Does a newborn infant possess free will? By that logic, does a fetus have it too?
Does that mean even basic reproductive cells possess it?😕
It seems to me that the first possibility requires the existence of
some sort of "soul" to act as the vessel for this free will, but
bringing a soul into the conversation feels like an unnecessary complication.

Or is it possible that freedom and will aren't present from the start?
Perhaps, as you suggest, free will arrives abruptly,
following a long stretch of actions that weren't driven by it.
However, I fail to see why, or specifically when,
(and more importantly, how?)
it suddenly makes its entrance onto the stage.
What kind of mystical mechanism is responsible for triggering it?

Hannah Thomas13 said:Our environment and genetics might make us predisposed to certain things, but ultimately, it’s our choice whether we act on those impulses or choose otherwise. Those choices shape who we become, giving us agency over ourselves. No hereditary trait or external pressure strips away the ability to refuse drugs or decide to turn right instead of left at a crossroads—even if those choices aren't always easy.

I disagree.
At what point in this logic does a choice actually become "ours"?
If we aren't just chemical processes in the brain, then what are we?
Experience and genetics dictate the variables; what is there left to choose?

Perhaps there are moments where a temporary imbalance of
certain chemical compounds influences a current decision,
making someone act differently than expected.
But we didn't consciously choose that imbalance.
(And when I say a current decision, I mean everything from the simplest
tasks—like deciding whether to tie my
left or right shoelace first—to the more
complex ones.)

Sure, our actions build our character and we influence ourselves,
but if the initial actions weren't born of free will,
then they can never truly be considered such.

Someone with a massive biological predisposition toward addiction
(which isn't a matter of free will)
will inevitably become an addict.
Those without the inclination simply won't.
It is the responsibility of society to address those tendencies if possible,
rather than hypocritically looking down on its fallen members,
who were essentially helpless to begin with when they made
some mistake.
Society should be providing them with a chance at rehabilitation.

Hannah Thomas13 said:Meaning is a human construct, not a natural one.

🙏

I don't think free will exists, and there certainly isn't any need for meaning.

Who am I?

Sam Mellon argued on the previous page,
that if you trace the chain of events backward through experience and
genetics, you eventually reach a point where no experience exists yet.
At that point, there is no "me."
The "self" couldn't possibly choose what it would become before it even existed.

The "self" is merely the byproduct of an interaction
between genetics and experience.
And naturally, as such a creation, I have no choice
but to be exactly what I am.
I didn't choose my DNA or my initial environment,
and those two factors combined to forge my experience.

In other words:
if the "self," for example, possesses a conscience,
it isn't because I had enough character
to cultivate it, so now I act like a good person—bravo, bravo.
It’s simply that the circumstances aligned for me.
Then, depending on how strong that conscience is,
I have varying degrees of desire to reflect on my decisions,
and varying degrees of strength to act in accordance with what my
conscience dictates.
So, I will be more or less of a good person because that is essentially what I
AM, not because I am choosing to be.