Is human nature inherently flawed?
in Philosophy ·
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
Just like any other animal.
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
Since when has selfishness been a bad thing?🤔
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
But what exactly do we belong to? And who decided that? When will people learn to grasp the actual meaning behind the words?☕
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
What does it mean to be a noble being?
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
There is no contradiction. Humans simply are. Contradictions exist only in the minds of people who desire a different world—one that suits them.
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
🙏
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
Look at religion for a moment, and you will see how many self-proclaimed intellectuals hold such views.
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
It is possible, because society is comprised of individuals.😛
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
True, they are human inventions, but they are natural nonetheless.
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
unless someone is chasing them,
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
it depends on your definition of "knowledge."🙄
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
are we being a bit contradictory?
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
you are generalizing.
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
Rules are not arbitrary; they arise from the necessity of cooperation.
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
In that case, it becomes a distortion.😁
Lawrence Robinson5 said:Humans exploit everything: other people, different species, the entire planet...
We’re inherently selfish, and even when we try to be selfless, it’s usually just a thinly veiled way to feed our own egos.
Humanity is the root cause of ecological imbalance; we're the only species actively fighting against the very system we belong to...
And then you have the complete opposite:
"Man is a noble creature, the measure of all things," and so on and so forth.
I’ve been feeling a bit lost lately navigating the constant contradictions in how we judge our own species. I see so many posts on this forum where the tone is heavy with disappointment and condemnation, even when people are trying their hardest to sound objective... and I can't help but wonder why.
It feels like there are really only two ways to look at this:
1) Humans are simply part of nature—which means we aren't inherently "good" or "bad," we're just biological facts. Everything we do happens because the environment we inhabit allows us to do it, so the evolution of our species—including all those messy mistakes we make while learning—is still just evolution, not some kind of cosmic destruction.
2) Humans are not part of nature—we've broken away, warped ourselves, and now we're just a burden to ourselves and everyone else. Our society is unnatural, our thoughts are unnatural, our very feelings are unnatural...
Since the second option clearly doesn't hold water, isn't it a total rookie mistake for a thinker to claim that a human action is wrong *a priori*?
Human civilization is a natural phenomenon precisely because we are a product of nature. That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do—but responsibility can only lie with the individual, because the individual is the only one actually acting. Society, as an abstract concept, can't take the blame for the things that make us feel guilty; blaming "society" is often just a psychological trick to scrub our own consciences clean of actions we aren't proud of...
Conscience is also a natural phenomenon, just like accountability. A dog doesn't run from a crime scene—not because it's incapable of doing something "wrong," but because it doesn't view its actions through that lens. That doesn't make humans unnatural; it just makes us different... and honestly, animals do show a sense of conscience; it's almost funny, like watching a toddler who knows they did something they weren't supposed to and tries to hide so they won't get grounded... but we only really see animal consciousness when we use punishment to train them—which is a fundamentally flawed (and unfortunately common) way to link those two ideas together...
Every person, like every living thing, knows when they aren't doing the "right" thing—because that's when they are acting against what they actually want. A dog knows it shouldn't swipe a steak off the dinner table, but sometimes it does it anyway because it wants that steak—and we do the exact same thing, just in much more complex ways.
Our true nature hasn't been corrupted; it's just buried under layers of "civilized" behavior. We've adopted hundreds of social rules about what's allowed and what isn't, spent lifetimes inventing justifications for them, and ended up in a place where there's no room left for honest, natural desire.
The real irony is that these rules were born out of distrust toward our own natural impulses. It was a lack of faith in our own correct judgment that led us to outsource our decision-making to others, and eventually, to dump all responsibility onto an abstract entity: society.
Society isn't some freakish mutation; it's just the physical manifestation of the human idea of itself—as a being that isn't allowed to, doesn't know how to, and shouldn't... it's the natural expression of a natural mental capacity: the ability to doubt, even our own selves. And if we don't like it, it's only because we are all participants in that doubt.
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Shakespeare definitely saw it coming...
There are the rushing waves...
mountains of molecules,
each stupidly minding its own business...
trillions apart
...yet forming white surf in unison.
Ages on ages...
before any eyes could see...
year after year...
thunderously pounding the shore as now.
For whom, for what?
...on a dead planet
with no life to entertain.
Never at rest...
tortured by energy...
wasted prodigiously by the sun...
poured into space.
A mite makes the sea roar.
Deep in the sea,
all molecules repeat
the patterns of another
till complex new ones are formed.
They make others like themselves...
and a new dance starts.
Growing in size and complexity...
living things,
masses of atoms,
DNA, protein...
dancing a pattern ever more intricate.
Out of the cradle
onto dry land...
here it is standing...
atoms with consciousness
...matter with curiosity.
Stands at the sea...
wonders at wondering... I...
a universe of atoms...
an atom in the universe.
Feynman☕