Posts by Elizabeth Lewis11

mistygull16 said:The Holy Spirit is basically Kundalini, or honestly, maybe it’s just that elevated state of consciousness you hit through meditation—you know, Samadhi.

Jesus used a ton of parables when talking to the crowds, but then he’d pull his inner circle aside to actually break them down.
He even mentioned having more to "say," implying people just weren't ready yet. That’s where he brings up the Holy Spirit, who uncovers those extra layers of mystery. At that point, you aren't just reading anymore; you're meditating.
Even long before Jesus, Gjano yoga involved listening (or reading), reflecting, and reaching that meditative insight—which, if you ask me, is pretty much the same thing as the Holy Spirit.

mistygull16,
The Holy Spirit and Kundalini are as different as "heaven and earth." See, the Holy Spirit is a Person. Kundalini is just "energy."

Jesus told the apostles that they would be taught all things by the Holy Spirit when He comes. Not Eastern mystics!!! And after Jesus ascended, the apostles received the Holy Spirit—a Person who guided their lives and taught them everything they couldn't quite grasp during those three years they spent with Jesus. It’s funny how people always try to bend things to suit their own narrative, isn't it? You're attempting to use biblical statements to validate Eastern concepts, but that argument falls apart pretty quickly under scrutiny.🙂

Nastavak:

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

Your consciousness and mine—they aren't exactly cut from the same cloth. You see, your perception is anchored to a specific set of "truths" you’ve gathered from the books on your shelf—books that seem to validate themselves through certain religious practices and those intense, emotional surges you hit during meditation. Essentially, you’ve placed your faith in what you feel while you're sitting there in silence. In short, you believe. I suppose I should start by being honest with myself—though that’s always been a bit of a struggle, hasn't it? It’s easy to get lost in the noise of everything else, drifting through the day without really checking in on what’s actually happening under the surface. I tend to wander off on these long, winding paths—much like my own thoughts, which rarely follow a straight line—and I often forget that the most important work happens internally. It's a slow process, a measured one, and frankly, a bit exhausting at times. But I'm trying. I'm trying to be more intentional, even if my attempts at being "composed" usually end up feeling a little bit ridiculous..
I believe in God—period. It doesn’t matter that I don't feel anything particularly special, nor do I go around chasing some sort of profound spiritual epiphany or "peak experience." My faith isn't rooted in myself—not in my fleeting emotional highs, nor in whatever transient mental states I might be cycling through at any given moment. If God says something, I do it. Plain and simple. Because I trust Him. I’m not out here hunting for internal validation or looking for some sign within my own "consciousness levels" to tell me I'm doing it right. Faith isn't an emotional rollercoaster; it's just following what He said.

My own consciousness stands as a witness to the Bible being the absolute truth. It’s my conviction that Jesus is truly "the way, the truth, and the life." Honestly, I can only attribute this clarity to the work of the Holy Spirit—because if it weren't for Him, I’d just be stuck believing in "myself"—relying on my own misguided opinions about God, piety, or what a Christian life ought to look like. I'd be lost in the whims of my own emotions or those fleeting, pious feelings one gets during a church service or similar rituals.

Regarding what shadownomad4 claimed about being able to translate various languages back into his native tongue—well, frankly, that just doesn't square with the Bible. In his particular Christian community, they treat the "gift of tongues" as this singular, extraordinary gift from God, even though if you actually look at Scripture, it’s listed as just one among many different gifts. To them, it serves as their ultimate "proof" that God is present among them. They fall into these trances during worship services, and once they feel some force taking hold—which they insist is the Holy Spirit—they start shouting, jumping around, making all sorts of noise, and speaking in unknown tongues. But in my view, that isn't the work of the Holy Spirit. After all, there's no practical value to it.
"The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets, because God isn't a God of chaos—He's a God of order." So, look—when the Holy Spirit truly takes hold of a person, it’s not some frantic, chaotic whirlwind that just tosses them around in a fit of mindless shouting or manic frenzy. That's not how it works. Instead, the Holy Spirit actually submits to the prophet. He doesn't overpower them; rather, He guides them—providing that specific inspiration needed to grasp or "see" a particular divine revelation or word from God.
When you look at what actually happened during Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, people tend to get it all twisted. They jump straight to the idea of speaking "angelic" tongues—which, let’s be honest, sounds much more poetic than the reality—but that isn't what the text is actually describing. It wasn't some mystical, celestial dialect; it was about speaking foreign languages. Plain and simple. You had these uneducated fishermen and rural folks suddenly gifted by the Holy Spirit with the ability to speak the native tongues of the surrounding nations. Why? Because there was a practical purpose behind it. It wasn't just for show; they were given this specific gift so they could effectively deliver the Good News about Jesus Christ to everyone listening. It was a functional, purposeful gift from the Holy Spirit, designed to bridge a communication gap, not just to sound impressive.

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

To "believe in God" basically just means you accept that He exists—that He’s the Creator, the one who penned the Bible, and all that. It’s essentially believing a few things *about* God. Honestly, if we're being real, it's a pretty shallow way to look at it—just sitting there on this superficial, "informational" level.
To "believe in God" means trusting Him as your Father, as the Creator, and as a Friend. When He issues a command—well, you follow it simply because you trust His heart. When you dig into the Bible, you aren't just reading old ink; you're searching for the good He intends to teach you—the specific kind of character He wants to forge within you. You read that God is love, yet also justice. And honestly, it’s the only way it makes sense. Through love, God sustains life; He provides His children with everything necessary for happiness and success. But at the same time, He shields them from the evil that exists in this world—evil that persists solely because of human choice. It makes you love Him even more, knowing He doesn't just hand out life, family, and joy, but that He is watching over you every single moment to ensure evil doesn't overtake you. And in those inevitable moments where He allows evil to touch you—you see it as a "test" of your loyalty to Him. You end up loving Him even more, because He is guiding you through life with such steady, gentle hands. Why can you trust Him unconditionally, even when He allows us to be tested by darkness? Because: "«No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.» 1 Corinthians 10:13
The God of the Bible is magnificent. Personal. The Creator. The Redeemer. The Judge of evil. The Friend of all that is good.

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

Jesus' own words are merely the "peak" of the wonderful biblical truths. From the first page to the last, the Bible is a magnificent divine revelation to humanity. Anyone sincerely searching for meaning and purpose in life will surely find it in the Bible. "For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds" (Matthew 7:8)
It's a tragedy, really, that Christian churches have established a "monopoly" on Christianity. Now, when we look at the institutions and the believers they have shaped, we find ourselves recoiling from the Bible, from Christianity, and from the God of the Bible. All because they have distorted clear and beautiful biblical truths. In doing so, they misrepresent God. Much like Satan does.

I'm glad we can exchange thoughts so calmly and openly. And I truly hope that your trust in the Biblical God grows—not based on my little text here, but through your own personal study of the Bible as the magnificent Word of God. Warm regards

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

The kind of religious education you get in schools doesn't lead you toward any true purpose or the actual meaning of piety—nor does it teach its genuine values for life. You just get these "light" definitions and dogmas. They aren't really studying the Bible there; they just pluck specific quotes to give church doctrines some sort of "biblical" weight. And frankly, that can't satisfy a person's spiritual needs—something you've experienced firsthand. It’s precisely because many churches teach "church truth" instead of biblical truth that Christianity has lost its true power—its ability to provide concrete, clear answers to life's big questions and equip a person for a victorious life (a life free from the slavery of sin). Instead of turning "sinners" into "righteous people" (those living in the "New Covenant" with God), churches keep Christians captive to church "truths"—dogmas that you aren't even allowed to question. It's ridiculous. Truth is only truly truth when it can withstand any scrutiny or questioning.
That’s why your time in those classes didn't bear much fruit. Even if you were baptized as a child—that’s actually contrary to the Bible. After all, Jesus was baptized as an adult—as a rational, responsible person. The same goes for all the apostles. Therefore, a church baptism holds no real value, because it isn't the independent decision of a mature, rational, and responsible individual. And since baptism marks the start of a new life free from the slavery of sin, that simply isn't possible for children. Children are just beginning to live in sin at that stage: showing selfishness, being quarrelsome, mocking others... because they haven't been released from the slavery of the sinful nature they were born into.

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

You make a fair point—you are hungry for spiritual nourishment. Unfortunately, this sort of "church" truth and the twisting of the Bible has caused more harm than good.
You moved "beyond" the Bible, whereas I moved "beyond everything"—having discovered the true value of the Bible. It was the thing that finally liberated me from the slavery of sin, guided me toward all the true paths, and equipped me for a quality, meaningful life ("that they may have life in abundance").
As for your comparison of truth to various colors, I can't quite agree with you there. While there might be different "truths" and "half-truths," I am interested in the "absolute truth." The truth that is eternal, which doesn't depend on the current situation or my fleeting opinions. And such truth can only come from the Absolute. That is the God of the Bible. Eastern religions lack an Absolute; for them, "God" is merely a force, an energy, or the universe. Because of that, you can call almost anything "truth" in those systems. That’s why you see "truths" as various colors in a spectrum. But Jesus said of Himself: "I am. put, Truth Quote "And life itself." Honestly, Jesus just pulled back the curtain on some absolute truths—truths that stand in total opposition to everything the church teaches, let alone those "spiritual" Eastern philosophies people love to obsess over.

Michael Moore3 says what he calls his "projection" is really just a defense mechanism against that whole "my truth is the only truth" attitude that shadownomad4 seems to be preaching. It’s a bit much, honestly—this idea that you can be completely blind to everything else while clinging to your own version of reality. And look, I’m not just throwing words at the wall here to see what sticks; I’ve actually put in the work, studying the facts and looking at other truths too.

I don't claim to have some personal version of "my" truth—that’s not really how this works. I hold onto Christ's truth. Everything I believe is anchored firmly in the Bible, which is God's Word. We're talking about the words of the living God—the Absolute—who holds absolute truths. It's that truth that actually sets me free from being enslaved by lies. So, if you're out here claiming that "my" truths aren't actually true, you aren't really "attacking" me—you're attacking the One I put my faith in.

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

Look, nothing has ever actually been proven. Nonsense has always existed, and frankly, it isn’t going anywhere. The God of the Bible systematically dismantles Egypt and its entire pantheon—tearing down an entire civilization just to lead the Hebrews out of bondage—yet you have these so-called "super-scientists" trying to argue that the Bible was just some recycled Egyptian script. It’s laughable, really. Furthermore, the Ten Commandments explicitly forbid any idols or images, whereas Egypt was practically overflowing with them. So, the idea that the Decalogue was lifted from Egyptian texts is just top-tier stupidity. It seems pretty obvious to me that enemies of the Truth Quote will use any tool available to diminish the actual weight of the Bible. Just look at "The Da Vinci Code"—it’s enough to make you die laughing. And what was it written by? "Scientists," apparently—all those great, wise minds! I honestly don't know how much more nonsense I can stomach regarding Jesus, the Bible, or Mary. Truly, certain twisted minds find endless inspiration in the Bible, twisting and distorting it to fit their own warped perceptions. But the Bible is capable of weathering any storm—simply because it is the truth. That is where its power lies. It has the strength to turn people away from evil and toward good; to take a drunkard or a degenerate and turn them into a decent human being; and to help folks break free from the dark influence of spiritism and the occult that they stumble into while chasing after fake "truths."
The Bible makes a pretty bold claim for itself—that it’s the word of God—and honestly, it backs that up every single day. Now, if there happens to be some other book out there making similar claims (though I can't say I'm aware of any), then we have a very simple litmus test: run it through the Bible. Once you do, those supposed "truths" tend to fall apart pretty quickly. At the end of the day, the Bible stands alone as the only source of absolute truth, simply because its Author is Absolute.

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

Now, this is a massive topic to unpack. Honestly, you’d need to grasp the fundamental distinction between spirituality and religiosity before anything else would make any sense to you. But let's save that for another time.

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

Look, you simply didn't understand the Bible. You didn't even have teachers who understood it, so they had no chance of instructing you properly. They were merely quoting verses without grasping their actual meaning. They were like a DVD player—just playing back whatever was on the disc without understanding the content. They failed to perceive the spiritual value of the Bible because they were viewing it through the lens of their own religiosity, so they couldn't teach you anything real. That's why you were left feeling confused. Your question is actually quite profound: "how can I love someone I fear?" Even the Bible itself states, "There is no fear in love; instead, perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not complete in love." 1 John 4:18
You say they didn't teach you to respect God. Not only should they have done that, but they should have gone much, much further. They should have taught you how to trust God. How to have genuine faith in Him. How to discover your Creator and your true Friend within Him. Instead of presenting God through love, they presented Him through fear—because religions tend to lead their followers via intimidation. It’s a way to keep people submissive to the institution—keeping them busy trying to appease a "terrifying and merciless" God through endless rituals.
Unfortunately, Eastern religions won't guide you toward God as a Person (a Creator, a Friend) either—they point you toward a faceless force or energy. Consequently, as an individual, you won't find a relationship (a "New Covenant") with God, because you're being taught by books written by "teachers" who wandered away from the Absolute. It's a shame, really.

Michael Moore3 said:You’ve gone and put together another string of Bible excerpts that could be interpreted in just about any way imaginable. You also seem determined to hand over every single attribute previously assigned to God to the Holy Spirit—suggesting He is everything and in everything, which essentially allows the Holy Spirit to be a person, an energy, or whatever else we can or cannot wrap our heads around.

And I’ll say it again: based on your claim that you've personally experienced the Holy Spirit—which, fine, if you say so, good for you—your interpretations just end up muddled and complicate my own understanding of God. I’ve built my own view of the Divine through various meditative practices and books outside of the Bible, and frankly, it makes more sense to me than any ambiguous verse from Scripture, especially since the only things in the Bible that truly resonate are the direct quotes from Jesus, and there aren't nearly enough of those to go around.

Dear Michael Moore3,
Of course you don't understand the Bible—you haven't even made the effort to try. You walked in with a pre-packaged, judgmental attitude toward the Bible, and frankly, I’d bet you haven’t even read it from cover to cover, let alone sat down to actually study or grasp its depth.

That’s exactly why you can't make sense of what shadownomad4 is saying, whereas for me—someone who has been studying the Bible in detail for about fifteen years now—everything is perfectly clear. You simply lack the necessary foundation, and so you end up criticizing what you don't comprehend. You're projecting your own confusion onto shadownomad4, acting as if the flaw lies with him. Besides, those meditative techniques and non-Biblical books only offer the illusion of clarity—they aren't inspired by God. I looked into them myself a long time ago (long before I realized the value of the Bible), and while they provided some answers regarding humanity and the world, they failed to satisfy my spiritual needs. They couldn't, really, because they are religious techniques rather than truly spiritual ones—even if they claim otherwise! It's only when one encounters the Bible that true spiritual needs can be met: reconciliation with God, forgiveness for past sins, and being equipped for a new life free from the bondage of sin. Religious techniques, churches, and various denominations can only cater to your "religious" needs—those fleeting "feelings" of piety, "feelings" of holiness, or "feelings" of oneness with God. It's all built on sensations and experiences—subjective things that are false, distorted, and manipulative because they don't come from God. God speaks to a person's reason: do not kill, have no other gods, love your neighbor—these aren't "feelings" or religious "experiences." They are rational principles and moral mandates designed to shape your character, not to manufacture fake "emotional highs." See, when someone relies solely on their feelings and their own opinions, they are relying on themselves rather than on God. They are building their faith on their own ego instead of on Him. They believe *in* God, but they don't actually trust Him.!!!

I’m not writing this to hurt your feelings or out of any ill intent. I'm saying this to show you that through humble, detailed study of the Bible, one can reach very clear and simple conclusions—conclusions that are essential if we want to understand the true meaning and purpose of life, devotion, and how we ought to act.
Best regards, Elizabeth Lewis11.

Hey there, shadownomad4.
Reading through your posts, it’s pretty clear you actually know your way around the Bible—which, let's be honest, is becoming a rare find these days. It’s genuinely refreshing to see someone actually trying to build their life on the Bible and God's will rather than just drifting along. I've jumped into various discussions on this forum before, and frankly, most people tend to be incredibly shallow and simple-minded. I don't mean to imply that your current interlocutors are shallow—not in the way some others have been, at least—but rather that people searching for answers often lack the courage to truly "surrender" to God. They haven't reached that level of intimacy with Him where they can actually extend real trust, or faith, you know? So, instead, they stick to what's comfortable: trusting themselves—their own opinions, their fleeting feelings, and their limited life experiences.
Best,

Hey there, everyone. I see things are starting to heat up in here—quite a lively debate you've got going. I won't stick around to clutter up the thread or get in your way, but I thought I'd leave a quick recommendation for a fantastic Christian forum: www.izaija95.lolbb.com
Best regards,