Posts by darkmason4

granitebadger23 said:It's true that Bhaktivedanta Swami wasn't afraid to use the word "rascal." Here are just a few examples. I'll leave them in English since I can't be bothered to translate...

"Can you find out? But these people, they have become more learned than Krishna. In our country, Vivekananda: daridra-nārāyana-sevā. The whole Ramakrishna Mission is collecting funds only on this rascal plea." (Lecture - Japan, April 22, 1972)

Actually, this excerpt from a discussion with a student shows that attitude even more aggressively. I don't want to judge someone's enlightenment or spiritual progress based solely on their use of harsh language, but I definitely agree that many would be offended by such insults, which casts serious doubt on the enlightenment of anyone saying such things.

"Anyone who has no trace of Krishna consciousness, he is a rascal. There is our challenge. (indistinct) He may be a great philosopher, a religionist—he is a rascal, degree only. Cent percent rascal, or maybe ninety percent rascal, or seventy percent rascal, but they’re all rascals. The same example: stool, this side and that side. Because the upside of stool is dried up, you cannot say, “It is very nice.” And they’re all stool. Anyone who is not Krishna conscious, who does not know the science of Krishna, he’s useless." (Philosophy Discussions with Syamasundara dasa)

This is really just a tiny fraction of what can be found. To be honest, even though I follow Vaishnavism, I really don't like hearing others being insulted like that when they aren't part of the movement.

I actually tracked down this quote in the Vedabase myself. From what I can gather looking at the broader context (correct me if I'm off base here), Prabhupada isn't calling the members of the Ramakrishna Mission "rascals"—he's making a general point about the concept of philanthropy and those who champion it.

Even without using harsher language, I definitely agree that such labeling would offend many people and cast serious doubt on the enlightenment of anyone who would say something like that.

God works in mysterious ways... personally, I wouldn't say that particular style is the gold standard, but the fact remains that SP was uniquely empowered to lead the global success of ISKCON. It wasn't by accident that he was the one chosen.
On the other hand, he represents a very strict and isolated branch of the Vaishnava tradition that goes back generations. That specific lineage is the one that spread across the globe. His teacher was even more uncompromising. If I've learned anything so far, it's that people from this lineage's student heritage were determined to maintain total separation from everyone else at any cost. That explains those "isolationist" attitudes. Usually, I find it charming when SP uses the word "rascal" (even when he's talking about me!), but in this specific instance, it really doesn't sit right with me.

"Anyone who has no trace of Krishna consciousness, he is a rascal. There is our challenge. (indistinct) He may be great philosopher, religionist—he is a rascal, degree only. Cent percent rascal, or maybe ninety percent rascal, or seventy percent rascal, but they’re all rascals. The same example: stool, this side and that side. Because the upside of stool is dried up, you cannot say, “It is very nice.” And they’re all stool. Anyone who is not Krishna conscious, who does not know the science of Krishna, he’s useless." (Philosophy Discussions with Syamasundara dasa)

It sounds pretty fanatical, but I think you could easily swap the word Krishna for God here. Prabhupada used Krishna as a synonym for God so frequently that he even used it when debating Christian theologians. He just got used to it.
If we replaced "Krishna" with "God" in this passage, everything makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

Besides, didn't SP arrive in the USA in '65 right in the middle of the ultimate "rascal" crowd, preaching with love to people who were burning their brains out on LSD and sex? He didn't reject a single soul.

granitebadger23 As specified by:
Both types actually exist. The real issue is that once people get "burned out," they usually stop showing up to the temple or attending any programs at all. In our neck of the woods, it mostly comes down to a huge number of former students from Harikes Maharaj's era, back when things were truly fanatic.

I know exactly how that felt, and honestly, massive respect to everyone who stuck it out through those tough times! I actually know a Vaishnava who was a disciple of Harikes Maharaj; he went through that heavy period of losing his own guru, but he eventually found his footing again and took initiation from Sacinandan Swami.

If I had shown up at the doors of ISKCON back then, there wouldn't be any force on earth strong enough to convince me to stay, let alone try to make it work within an organization like that.
It’s all thanks to Krishna that I finally found my way here, even if it took a little longer than expected.

"Quote:"

When Harikes Maharaj left ISKCON, it hit a lot of people hard, causing many to lose faith in the whole movement. It might seem bizarre looking back from today's perspective, but times were different then, and the way people viewed a guru wasn't what it is now. Back then, they were taught to see the guru as almost being Krishna himself. Nowadays, that entire dynamic has shifted completely.

Everything you've laid out here is exactly what I've heard from the senior devotees over the years.

As for how we get along with other Vaishnavas, honestly, not much has changed within ISKCON. If you look at the "Siksa outside ISKCON" book published a few years back, it highlights exactly where the friction lies, and I’ve definitely felt that tension in my own life. It's an area where ISKCON here in the States still has some serious homework to do.

I have this little yellow booklet here. Even though the author isn't being overtly offensive to others, the whole vibe feels like they're preaching actual racial segregation laws and keeping everyone strictly separated... basically, I'm right there with you on this one.

The beauty of ISKCON today is that anyone looking to start their bhakti journey is met with such a massive variety of paths. It’s all about finding what resonates with you personally. Exactly. Once she truly identifies what she wants from her spiritual life, everything changes. That’s when the struggles fade away—no one will be able to drag her down or steer her destiny for her. But like I said, the first step is simply knowing that truth. Why? She finally arrived! What? He’s got to figure out how that all fits together. hers I'll be there.
It’s like looking at a wide spectrum: on one end, you have the more "liberal" influence—think of Bhakt Tirth Swami's vast library of books acting as a guide for spiritual instruction, or the approach taken by Sacinandan Swami. On the other side, you have the more traditionalist, heavyweight perspective represented by the BVKS and their circle.

Just to be clear, I’m not the one making this classification; BVKS actually refers to himself as a "heavy" guru on his own website. It seems like he's just being upfront, giving potential students a heads-up on exactly what they should expect if they decide to become his initiated disciples. Fair enough.

I’m 108% convinced that some people truly need a "heavyweight" guru in this lifetime—someone who steps in to firmly rein in material life and set clear boundaries like, "you can do this, but you can't do that." On the flip side, others definitely need someone who leads with ease, empathy, and a much softer touch.

I'm the kind of person who only ever finds myself drawn to the latter. 🙂

bluemason3 said:But look... it’s all a matter of personal perspective. I was among the first to read Prabhupada's books (back in middle school, I think), and I picked up others later on. I even used to head out to San Francisco or visit the temple back in the '90s... but I never really took any of it seriously until I stumbled upon information about Gaudiya Vaishnavism from entirely different sources. I could imagine myself as a Vaishnava, but certainly not as an ISKCON devotee, a Gaudiya Math follower, or some eccentric "Saraswata" following the "reformed" line of Bhaktisiddhanta. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but respect for SP for bringing such a serious approach to the West during the hippie era (though some of that carried over into ISKCON later), and he definitely deserves respect as a Vaishnava. It’s always nice to run into devotees or occasionally find myself at a temple, but personally, it just doesn't pull me in, and those books leave me feeling pretty cold. 😳 🤷

So, you can't make sweeping generalizations. Some fish bite at one kind of hook, while others prefer a different bait.

What counts as "ideal" or "correct" is also pretty relative...

bluemason3, I’m right there with you.
My spiritual path didn't actually kick off with SP's books either. My journey started about seven years before I ever joined the movement, and that period really shaped who I am and what I choose to accept or reject later on.
By the time I arrived at ISKCON, I already had a solid foundation in the Vedas, various spiritual realizations (mostly earned through hardship), and a spiritual guide whose teachings are universal. Because of that, fitting in was relatively easy.
Even now, I'm not just sitting idly by; I'm involved in several other groups that are connected to spirituality in one way or another.

All of this gives me the confidence that ISKCON won't break me, because my foundation isn't built on them. Instead, it rests on those earlier foundations, other organizations, a stable financial situation, and my college education.

Honestly, I never would have joined ISKCON or understood any of this if it weren't for that background. I've never had much patience for fake priests, false authorities, or a militant atmosphere. But for the sake of Krishna, SP, and the other wonderful teachers in the movement, I decided to take what works and simply ignore the rest. And if I have to—meaning, if I face personal attacks—I'll push back with that same energy without holding back.
So far, it's worked out fine—I haven't had bad experiences, just minor misunderstandings... I don't know, maybe my athletic build intimidates people... 😛

bluemason3 said:But Prabhupada didn't just call people jerks; he targeted figures like Swami Vivekananda and his teacher—who was even more prominent back in India—along with other Gaudiya Vaishnavism lineages. And he did it based on ideology, not personal character flaws.

Do you actually have a quote somewhere where SP called Vivekananda and Ramakrishna Paramahansa scoundrels??!

Amanda Roberts21 said:So what if he was old? HE WASN'T ENLIGHTENED.

He was just some limited old man with an insane amount of willpower.

The guy was a fanatic on a mission.

That's exactly why those poor souls who fall into that cult are lost causes—the more years they waste in there, the more certain it is that they'll be mentally scarred for the rest of their lives.

Maybe, but you should probably watch how you throw insults around, even on a random internet forum like this. Being that harsh can catch up to you in real life, no matter how you live, and you might end up losing what little grace you have left.

Just because you don't get it or feel let down doesn't give you a free pass to be disrespectful.

boldsailor2 said:If someone’s acting arrogant, it’s usually because they think they can just slap "as it truly is" after the name Bhagavad Gita—like they own a monopoly on God and spirituality while everyone else is just some demon or lost soul trapped in maya. I’m honestly just speaking up for all those devotees who poured their best years and their entire health into this fake version of spirituality, only to end up totally abandoned—left alone, without an education, without money, without a family, and just completely broken midway between heaven and earth.
... to me, that is demonic in the truest sense of the word... and when I look back at everything now, it honestly makes me want to lose my mind!

I’m not trying to play devil's advocate here—that's not really what this space is for—but if there's anyone in the last century who truly mastered the art of being arrogant, it was definitely A.C.B.S.P.
Honestly, I don't think I've ever met anyone more humble in my entire life.
His incredible success is clear proof of the special mission God has set for him, along with every bit of help provided to ensure the movement continues to grow.

boldsailor2 said:If someone’s acting arrogant, it’s usually because they think they can just slap "as it truly is" after the name Bhagavad Gita—like they own a monopoly on God and spirituality while everyone else is just some demon or lost soul trapped in maya. I’m honestly just speaking up for all those devotees who poured their best years and their entire health into this fake version of spirituality, only to end up totally abandoned—left alone, without an education, without money, without a family, and just completely broken midway between heaven and earth.
... to me, that is demonic in the truest sense of the word... and when I look back at everything now, it honestly makes me want to lose my mind!

Look, my experience has been the exact opposite. I’ve talked to plenty of devotees, and everyone was incredibly happy and fulfilled about dedicating their best years to the mission.
By the way, what does "sacrifice" actually mean? I bet people did it because they truly found joy in the act, rather than out of some heavy suffering—otherwise, it would just be plain depressing.

This isn't just some "pseudo-spiritual" phase; it’s a genuinely powerful journey toward self-discovery. However, it can easily devolve into something hollow if you don't have the right guidance or the common sense to tell the difference between the real deal and a cheap imitation. There's a massive gap between a true devotee with a huge heart and that arrogant, book-smart egoist who calls himself a devotee—the kind of person who spends their morning hating themselves and their afternoon hating the entire world.

It isn't really the process that’s at fault here; it's more about a lack of flexibility and failing to pick the right mindset.
It’s like someone landing at a powerhouse like Google, only to burn every bridge because they couldn't tell the difference between the high performers and the toxic types. They’d eventually walk out the door trashing the whole company, even if their own performance reviews were absolutely stellar.

boldsailor2 said:If someone’s acting arrogant, it’s usually because they think they can just slap "as it truly is" after the name Bhagavad Gita—like they own a monopoly on God and spirituality while everyone else is just some demon or lost soul trapped in maya. I’m honestly just speaking up for all those devotees who poured their best years and their entire health into this fake version of spirituality, only to end up totally abandoned—left alone, without an education, without money, without a family, and just completely broken midway between heaven and earth.
... to me, that is demonic in the truest sense of the word... and when I look back at everything now, it honestly makes me want to lose my mind!

I’m really sorry you had to go through that. I know exactly what it feels like to be stuck in limbo—not quite reaching your spiritual goals, yet feeling disconnected from everything else, too. It’s like being caught in a tug-of-war between heaven and earth where you just can't find your footing. Fortunately, I managed to find my way out of that funk pretty quickly.

I really believe that at ISKCON, the most vital thing is for a person to be brutally honest with themselves: do they truly want to commit to the 100% monastic life as a monk, or would they rather serve within the congregation?
I could never pull off that first lifestyle; I’d probably lose my mind within six months and end up in a psychiatric ward. It was clear to me right away that my physical, emotional, and mental makeup just isn't wired for that kind of thing.

As far as community involvement goes, the congregation model is definitely the sweet spot for me.
I’ve got my own life, my wife, my kids, and my hobbies to balance out.
I head to programs a few times a week to get inspired, and that’s really all there is to it. It’s like hitting the local aikido studio three or four times a week. I haven't neglected the material side of things either, because I know how vital it is—ultimately, it serves as the foundation that supports my spiritual life.
You need a chair with more than just two legs to stay balanced.
My rule of thumb is to take what resonates with who I am from any group, and just let the rest slide. Otherwise, you're just creating unnecessary friction and drama in your own head.

Andrew Sanchez572 said:It is quite lovely to read this...🙂 I sincerely hope that the final conclusion holds true as well...
How long have you been involved with the movement?

It absolutely holds true. At the start of May, I spent a week at a japa retreat on Maui with Sacinandan Swami.
I’ve honestly never felt such intense spiritual power and energy in my life—and that’s mostly thanks to him. It was easily the best seven days of my life!
When Sacinandan is nearby, you can really see that the process works and that we're on the right track. Not only does it work, but it’s so incredibly potent that it constantly exceeds my expectations, "breaking through" material consciousness much faster than I think I could handle. During that retreat, I had this unmistakable feeling that there wasn't a better place on Earth to be for spiritual growth and practicing the japa technique.

Andrew Sanchez572 said:It is quite lovely to read this...🙂 I sincerely hope that the final conclusion holds true as well...
How long have you been involved with the movement?

A little over two years.

Andrew Sanchez572 said:From what I have gathered, the mayavadi seeks nothing more than to merge into Brahman, whereas the devotee simply longs to serve their deity for all eternity.

If you take a step back and look at the big picture, we are all essentially servants.
That’s actually one of the most profound lessons I've picked up in Krishna consciousness.
Just look around—it's everywhere.
We are constantly serving someone or something—our boss at work, our kids, our spouses, our friends, or even just reacting to our own senses.
No one escapes this role; even if you're the President of the United States or a monarch, you still have responsibilities to others.

It makes much more sense to embrace this reality consciously rather than fighting against our natural state. It's better to accept it and find joy in life instead of stubbornly insisting we are God ourselves—which, let's face it, is just a losing battle until karma forces us to open our eyes again.

Whether you're aiming to merge or looking to serve a deity forever, the bottom line is that we never stop being servants.

Maybe the word "servant" carries a bit of a negative weight for some of us (I get that), but if it helps, you could think of it as being "a vital part of a whole."

Think of it as a single piece of a puzzle, designed both to receive and to give, interacting with the entire picture through everything we do. This hasn't changed; it's always been our true position. The only real question is how aware we've become of it—essentially, where we stand on our spiritual journey.

Andrew Sanchez572 said:Well, it seems the passions have been stirred once again... I am certainly no legal expert, and while I am well aware there have been certain internal frictions within ISKCON, I personally find them all quite irrelevant. To my mind, at least. Every organization, much like any other institution you might encounter in America, is bound to have its own set of flaws and growing pains.

If a person remains truly open and honest with themselves, they will recognize that these distractions are merely the traps of Maya; honestly, I simply refuse to get entangled in such politics.

I hold the literature by Shrila Prabhupada in high regard for two specific reasons. First, it serves as a literal translation from the Sanskrit—word for word, syllable for syllable if necessary—which provided immense value and significance to my own journey. Second, for anyone just beginning to explore this culture, it offers essential foundational knowledge.
Please, do not come for me; I am not suggesting that everything is perfect or all-encompassing. An intelligent individual always seeks out deeper knowledge and more information... and after all, no one is perfect.

I'm with you on this. Even though I'm not a huge fan of the whole "personalism vs. impersonalism" debate—I mean, who really cares?—what truly blows me away is how Srila Prabhupada could take massive truths and explain them using everyday language and simple sentences.
At first glance, it might seem almost too simple, maybe even a bit raw or naive (especially to someone with an academic background), but after a while, you start to realize the sheer genius behind it. Especially if you stick to your daily chanting routine. Your entire perception shifts.
While certain truths remain blurry or vague in various religions around the world, here they are explained with straightforward, practical, and easy-to-grasp language.
- Who am I? Who is God? What is my relationship with Him? Where do I actually fit in the universe? What is the point of life? etc., etc.

I've read a ton of different books and wandered through many paths, but it was only through Srila Prabhupada's ability to speak directly and clearly that I found concise, unambiguous answers to these questions.

And I won't even mention how he’s practically the only spiritual teacher who laid out exactly what daily practice—sadhana—should look like, including what it consists of and how to perform each part. Everything from how to properly chant japa to which foods are sattvic, tamasic, or rajasic, and what we can or cannot offer to God.

As a member of ISKCON—specifically in a congregation rather than a temple setting—I feel like I'm working for a top-tier company like Microsoft or one of the big players in the US while doing my material work. I know there used to be all sorts of chaos, fanaticism, and ego issues, but today, ISKCON is better and more advanced than ever in America.

boldsailor2 said:btw this whole idea of impersonalism and those "impersonalists" Shrila Prabhupada talks about—it’s basically just a concept living in his head and his books. I mean, who actually studies Advaita philosophy enough to claim that what he writes in his books has nothing to do with reality? It’s honestly a total outlier case—fighting against something that doesn't even exist in the real world... you'd have to be pretty gifted to pull off such a wrong interpretation

It isn't something you find in the West, but in India, it definitely exists. It's been around for centuries.
It's a bit like how certain groups interact in the US.