Posts by silentraven6

Daniel Chase13 said:A university philosophy professor is making quite a suggestion: Evolution and Darwinism ought to be removed from American school curricula.

“(…) many Catholics in America really ought to take a hard look at this and ask themselves whether they’ll continue to tolerate their children being forced to memorize Darwinian explanations for the origin of life—explanations that, as Thomas Nagel so decisively puts it, are simply wrong and unacceptable. Furthermore, Darwinism becomes particularly dangerous when its core tenets are applied to society and morality as a whole, giving rise to Social Darwinism—which feels like nothing more than a new version of a universal secular religion.”

There’s actually a response here https://mudroljublje.wordpress.com/2...homasa-nagela/

And honestly, it’s worth reading Nagel himself.

This article is a perfect example of why we desperately need education reform, Zovkov...

The guy happens to be a close friend of Nina Raspudić—they come from the same small-town roots, share the same way of thinking and questioning the world... just playing a little folk music here and there, flashing a charming smile, winning over some heart, and dropping some "intellectual" wisdom (not that they aren't smart, but when you add it all up, it’s just classic diaspora philosophical posturing).

Philosophy of science isn't about the Catholic perspective on Darwinism; shove that onto whatever specific branch of philosophy he's actually teaching. This is pure populism, just a way to rake in some columnist cash.

I can't help but feel like competition is just baked into our DNA; instead of fighting it, we should probably just focus on creating better guidelines for respecting our differences.

If we didn't have that competitive drive, we wouldn't have half the breakthroughs we now consider essential parts of modern life.

Anyway, I took a quick peek at my school portal, and there were some comments in there—it was pretty much the same thing I saw during the second semester of freshman year. Honestly, I've been trying to take it all in a constructive way.

frozenrider15 said:If my life were on the line, I’d probably grab the sword. Though, let’s be real, I’m a coward; I’d likely just run for it 😉.

What I mean is, I get the theory, but in this specific situation, I would fight for my child.
I see "solutions" to this sort of thing at my workplace all the time. They squeeze religious studies into a single hour, and kids who don't participate are supposedly "taken care of" under supervision. Extra tutoring sessions can't happen during that slot; they have to be at the very start or end of the day. If it's an after-school program, the teacher just juggles the kids—assigning one group a task while working with the others. It’s far from an ideal setup for the teacher, frankly.

If that were the case at my daughter's school, I wouldn't sign her up for those classes. But since I couldn't get a straight answer on how the kids not attending would actually be supervised, I wasn't willing to take the risk of her wandering the halls alone.

See, there you go—you'd fight for your kid.

Well, everyone else is fighting for their kids too.

We're talking about "supervision" being provided on a voluntary basis, and is that actually fair? You work in a school. Is it right that because of a job someone else is getting paid for, you're expected to work for free?

Setting aside the fact that any normal person would do what you'd do—which is clearly the humane thing to do—on a strictly formal level, it isn't fair.

So, as a parent of a child who chose religious studies, you feel it's fair that someone else has to watch the other kids for free just because they aren't part of that faith or whatever, even though those contracts are problematic and you know it. But it isn't fair that those other kids miss out on meaningful activities with a teacher who is specifically paid to be with the religious studies group.

Is it only unfair because your child is the one missing out? Because you're looking at this solely through the lens of your own kid?

Isn't it also an injustice to go to the school and protest, knowing that by doing so, you're depriving other children of content, leaving a teacher without their paid hours, and potentially costing someone their job or landing them with a black mark on their record?

Isn't that just injustice fighting against injustice?

What’s the bigger harm here? Is it that your child misses out on something you could easily pay for privately since you opted for religious studies, or is it that another child—whose parent also paid for that religious studies class (even though the service isn't needed and puts the teacher in a bind)—misses out on instruction, the teacher loses their pay, and someone ends up getting screwed over?

When you weigh all the damages ethically, which side carries more weight?

I'll say it again: no child in America (as far as I know) is legally guaranteed supervision during religious studies. Just look at labor rights and what the law says about unpaid work (in an idealistic sense, let's not bash American employers too hard), and how volunteering is treated and filed. This kind of supervision is essentially volunteering, which should also be compensated.

Edit: Maybe the teacher is just a conformist, working to protect her own unpaid time that's being forced upon her by certain moral codes. Maybe she’s a conformist because she’s fighting for her own child, who's left alone for an hour while she's stuck providing extra help to your child just because she has the right to.

Maybe she's just an ordinary conformist. Why is your brand of conformity more moral than hers?

frozenrider15 said:I get where you're coming from (I actually had to re-read that part about moral relativism a few times 😁). I enrolled my little one in religion class specifically because of that logistical fact—so she isn't just wandering the halls while everyone else is in class. That wasn't even the main reason. I actually toyed with the idea of not enrolling her at all, but instead asking that she not be pulled out of the classroom during that period. And frankly, I don't care if she becomes a devout believer at this age; neither of us parents are particularly practicing folks. I mostly went with it because I thought it would be better for my kid, given her age.

From my own experience and from reading through these forums, I see exactly how they try to jam religion class into the schedule and the headaches parents face when they don't sign their kids up. But it's also clear to me that you can't fix one injustice by committing another. So, I truly understand your perspective and your satisfaction in knowing your little one is looked after and doing something fun and useful. However, I wouldn't be happy if that same opportunity were handed to your child but denied to mine. I wouldn't take it out on you, though; I’d take it out on the teacher and demand they provide the same option for my girl.

Frozenrider15, this isn't just some minor unfairness. This is a total disregard for spiritual principles; it's basically spitting in the face of everyone else who is being told there's such a thing as a moral absolute. I hate seeing one wrong corrected by another, but I also feel like there's no other way to fight back. If the other side is using moral relativism to get ahead, maybe we have to use it too.

It feels like we're on a battlefield, and you see your opponent using the exact same weapon against you, yet some rule tells you that you aren't allowed to touch it, even though they can.

Would you just die, or would you pick up your sword?

And look, please don't take this personally, but in this specific situation, you're being a complete conformist. You're leaning on those relativistic arguments, yet you'd go protesting to the school if some kid named Almir, who happens to be Muslim, got extra time off during class so he wouldn't have to wander the hallways in first grade. You wouldn't deny his parents the same basic treatment, regardless of what's technically "legal." Why aren't you being a conformist about that? Why are you closing your eyes to what's happening right in front of you?

frozenrider15 said:It’s early, and I haven't had my coffee yet, so I missed something: is that bolded part actually your opinion, or is it something we can find printed on the official pages of the Archdiocese (I don't even see a link)?

Because if this isn't an after-school program, the remedial and extra help sessions are scheduled for either the first or the last period. That way, a kid who doesn't need to stay late can either stay home or head straight back to their house. There shouldn't be kids hanging out in the halls during extra help sessions. And there certainly shouldn't be kids left unsupervised during religious ed classes—at least not at our local school. Students are under supervision.

And that bolded section really rubs me the wrong way: Are you suggesting my child should be penalized by missing out on extra help just because they attend religious ed? Absolutely not... I wouldn't allow that for a second.

Basically, moral relativism might be acceptable when it comes from the perspective of moral absolutists—those who have been fighting against relativism for centuries through the absolute center of morality, God—but it's totally unfair to those who end up being disadvantaged by that very relativism, even if we aren't trying to follow some kind of utilitarian logic.

Let me explain...

What I just said is a bit of a cheeky dig, because any parent whose child takes religious ed should really be aware of how these classes are handled. You have to realize that nowhere are children properly supervised just because someone is getting paid a fee for the job. Nowhere. Based on what you've said (regarding the extra help and elective courses in elementary schools), which I'm not even trying to deny because it's true, there's simply no way to legally and properly supervise these kids and ensure someone is actually being compensated for it. And honestly, reliable childcare is a relatively modern concept anyway, and as we've seen in a few posts earlier, some kids aren't being looked after at all.

So, by choosing religious ed, you've essentially chosen moral relativism. And since you've made that choice, let me use that same moral relativism to defend the fact that I'd prefer someone to be properly paid to watch my child and actually do something productive during that time.

If the moral absolutism of believers no longer plays a role, and utilitarianism is blocked by the moral relativism of those absolutists... well, then we're stuck.

And hey, while we're at it, we could dive into the legality of these kinds of school decisions. We could even bring up the legality of the Vatican Treaties—which apparently shouldn't be touched or even reviewed despite twenty years passing—and have a little chat about what is actually morally relative or absolute in all of this.

Michelle Nelson4 said:Well, a decision was finally reached at the school level regarding our scheduling. It turns out that this time around, they’ve officially aligned the math tutoring sessions with the period when part of the class is away for religious studies. It’s all been formally integrated into the master schedule and logged as an official subject in the digital gradebook. This means everything is above board—the teacher is being officially compensated for the extra time, and there aren't any awkward gaps in the daily timetable.

This is honestly the first genuinely positive thing I’ve seen happen at our school, and it feels like such a refreshing break from the usual mediocrity. Of course, the IT teacher is clearly putting a massive amount of effort into this, though if I’m being honest, I think the sophomores might still be a little too young to fully grasp the scale of his projects!

In any case... 👍 Cheers to our school for making this move! 🥂

Our kid has extra help, and it's been wonderful since he actually loves math.

Computer science might still be a bit advanced for them, but you can tell something good is brewing for next year.

The answer to that sneaky post about intelligence and stupidity can be found on the Archdiocese website, which I linked recently. Heaven forbid that I, as an imperfect believer, should try to be a bigger Pope than the Pope himself and start worrying about all that. God forbid there's injustice. Let the parents handle the math situation at home. They aren't out in the hallways while this type of instruction is happening; they're busy taking care of things.

Besides, how can people call parents "conformists" just because they sign their kids up for religious studies so they aren't left wandering the halls? If any other elective were offered, they'd probably pick that instead. Would they really stand alongside all those parents who skip religious studies due to their convictions, faith, or different views—parents whose kids would then be left standing in the hallways?

Karen Richardson3 said:I’m almost at a loss for words because I pretty much agree with everything you said 😁

I was really just speaking from my own personal experience living in Cleveland.
Basically, this past summer, I found myself in these deep conversations about how kids who opt out of religious studies get treated in Cleveland. It felt totally surreal to me, especially when you consider the actual percentage of non-Catholics in the city—you've got Orthodox folks, Muslims, atheists—and that whole local vibe where people try to brand the city as this "cool, progressive, tolerant, anti-fascist hub."

Based on what my friends were telling me, I fully expected my kid to be one of the few outliers who didn't participate, so I decided to just take the risk of dealing with some potential discrimination.

But guess what? Nothing happened. In fact, nearly half the class skips it; they just sit there watching Disney cartoons while the others are off in religion class.

What I find fascinating is this growing narrative about the near-persecution of kids who don't attend these classes, which has somehow made its way even to Cleveland—a place that, if my gut is right, probably has some of the lowest participation rates in the entire US.

It would feel just as bizarre if that kind of blatant discrimination were happening in Washington, D.C., too. Sure, I can wrap my head around individual people making snide comments because that's how they were raised, much like how people might face prejudice simply because they aren't originally from D.C. and moved there later (if we're being honest, there seems to be more online bashing of people from the South or rural areas than there is actual outcry over kids skipping religion class), but that doesn't mean the city itself is inherently discriminatory.

On the flip side, I completely get why it feels so much harder in smaller towns, where any kind of deviation from the norm gets you some pretty nasty looks.

As for the textbooks and stuff, I haven't really followed it closely; I saw a headline about that controversial religious textbook, but then just the other day there was that whole drama involving a woman and her mom, and I'm starting to get the impression that people just love to stir up panic. Even the liberal media outlets jump on it, framing everything as this looming "threat of backwardness" just to trigger clicks and comments. It’s a total conflict of interest because these news sites aren't trying to inform you; they're just chasing engagement.

Personally, a much bigger issue for me is that Disney cartoon featuring Mickey Mouse where they sing that song about "it's a mouse thing"—it sounds so suggestive, almost like they're singing about a penis, and to me, it honestly feels like some weirdly inappropriate pamphlet. 😁

I honestly just sat there and cried. I really did. I can't stop questioning myself, wondering what on earth that whole mess was actually supposed to mean. 😂

Moms and women... honestly, they can be a bit slow on the uptake sometimes, but hey, at least they’ve given us plenty of good material to work with.

I’ve rarely looked at the whole religious education debate here in Washington, D.C., through the lens of it being direct discrimination or an insult to someone's beliefs. To me, it feels more like a question of how the subject is categorized and the very real anxiety felt by people who aren't being offered any kind of alternative or way to opt out. It’s about that lack of choice. And honestly? I don't think the situation is the same whether you're living Downtown or out in the Suburbs.

No, maybe this whole thing—this intense, almost aggressive pushback against non-believers and anti-theistic trends (which, let’s be honest, is basically just Mark wearing a different outfit)—actually has some positive resonance. In my own little circle, the people who have known me since I was a kid back in my small hometown, their first reaction was that this was all just some fashion statement. They figured it was just a rebellious phase born out of pure boredom, because let's face it, life in Washington, D.C. can feel pretty stagnant despite all its complexity and constant activity. But even then, a certain percentage of them started asking the real questions. They wondered what kind of shift had to happen to make that kid, who used to sing in the church choir, decide to skip religious studies altogether.

Maybe there’s a bit of influence coming from that whole rebellion brewing in the big cities. If we can just keep our egos in check and avoid spiraling into this loud, mindless clucking against stupidity—because let's face it, injustice exists everywhere you look—we might actually get somewhere. Honestly, when protesting has become such a massive social event these days, it feels like your post is leaning right into that vibe, if I'm being blunt about it.

Cleveland is pretty much a secular spot 😁 I always think of the old industrial plants whenever Cleveland comes to mind

rowdypanther12 said:Well, yeah, it is harder, but people in D.C. act like they're living in a tiny Midwest town, you know?
I'm pretty sure this happens in D.C., Cleveland, and everywhere else, but I really don't believe it's widespread enough that parents should enroll their kids in religion just out of fear.

I was in 7th grade when religious studies was introduced. I didn't take it. Nobody ever really questioned why, though to be fair, my teachers had much bigger issues with me talking in class than they ever did with religious studies. 😂

Alright, look, it's true there's a bit of drama going on. Even Clint Eastwood thinks we're part of a "soft" generation.🤣

I think people—myself included—have just finally had enough. It feels like it's reached a breaking point where it's about principle now. People want a fair society. For me personally, it's the way the subject is taught and the status it holds that really bothers me.

Karen Richardson3 said:I’ve honestly heard so much nonsense about kids being picked on or bullied just because they don't take religion classes.
Whenever I try to dig deeper and ask who actually went through this, nobody can ever point to a single real-life case or someone they actually know—it’s always just "well, someone told me that someone else said..."

I get that if you live in some tiny rural town where 29 out of 30 kids attend religious studies, that one kid who doesn't might feel like an outsider, but seeing this level of outcry in a big city like Cleveland was honestly pretty shocking to me.

In my opinion, it feels like parents—especially the ones constantly venting on social media 😁—are just making way more of a huge deal out of this than necessary.
Looking back, when I was going through Elementary School in the early 90s, we didn't think it was weird at all that some kids attended and others didn't. It never crossed my mind to make a massive drama over it; for instance, I went to the classes while my absolute best friend didn't, and I never once felt the need to grill her about why she wasn't there. 🤷

Your perspective comes from your own experience, living in a major city. We can probably agree that America is much larger than just its biggest metropolitan areas. And even in those big cities, tolerance isn't exactly universal.

Small towns aren't outliers; they are often the ones actively maintaining the status quo because people are terrified of being judged. They act as brakes on progress because you're constantly stuck in this defensive position where it's hard to speak your mind. Not everyone is brave or revolutionary—like my friend from elementary school whose sister basically invited her to sit in on a religious class just to tell her in front of everyone that Satan would devour her. My friend gave her a legendary comeback and got a standing ovation from the rest of us. Obviously, not every small town is like that, but the experiences of most of my colleagues from rural areas are pretty similar—whether it's religion, music, sexual orientation, or social status, it's just more intense in those smaller communities.

And I don't see the issue with the outcry regarding how inappropriate the eighth-grade religious studies textbooks are. They repeat certain points that shouldn't be allowed in a free society within a state institution that pays the teachers but doesn't have the right to choose them through a competitive hiring process.

Saying you "understand" why things might be different in smaller towns is like saying you understand why coming out is harder in a Small town in the Midwest than it is in Washington, D.C. But look, I still think people overreact. To me, it's not "drama," it's an awareness of injustice. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

PS: I know I'm in a bit of a tense writing mode here, but I'm just thinking out loud. I'm not trying to start a nasty verbal fight with you 😁 (plus, it's been a while since we talked, so if you're up for it, let's chew the fat a bit).

That sounds like a total disaster. Honestly, I think you need to file a formal withdrawal request. You might want to see if the Vatican has specific regulations on this—maybe they only allow withdrawals right before the new school year starts? It's worth a quick search online to be sure.

Maybe try asking the teacher if there's any wiggle room. Since the school year just kicked off and they're only in first grade, there might be an out. My kid went to one session and came home with his textbook; I didn't even have him write anything down. I told them beforehand that I wasn't sure about it and that we’d give the subject a fair shot first.

Kika, what they're doing to your child is completely unacceptable. If I were you, I’d take the advice from the other folks on this forum.

Here’s a sample text you could use. And frankly, here is some cold, hard evidence for everyone posting here about religious studies being an "elective." People clearly don't grasp the actual issues at hand because they keep hiding behind the excuse that it's an optional course.

I am getting closer and closer to just giving up on my kids receiving any more sacraments and formally leaving the Catholic Church. I just can't do it anymore. No amount of excuses from their moronic policies works for me, whether I'm praying or talking it out with theologians. It is honestly disgusting how these bureaucrats push their own agendas just to serve themselves.

Since I’m replying directly to you here—and honestly, after seeing that massive question mark hanging over your head regarding my last response—I think I finally get where you're coming from.

Just to be crystal clear: I had absolutely no idea about any of your profiles or specific requirements until about ten minutes ago. And if it wasn't obvious before, I was strictly speaking from my own personal experience.

Also, regarding my role as a moderator... I’ll keep this brief and just ask that you leave any judgment regarding that part of my job to the people actually in charge.

Since there isn't much I can do to help you with the account lockout situation, I'll just say goodbye here. I'm basically throwing my hands up in frustration that I even got dragged into this little standoff.

Best,

Sarah Hall53 said:unless the local priest starts refusing communion or withholding blessings from kids who skip religious studies class 😉

but honestly, I totally get being frustrated with those strict grading policies where they kick you out if you score below an A—that’s basically my life every single day.

I really hope I don't live to see that happen... though, to be honest, I am seriously considering writing a formal letter to resign from the church.

Lawrence Torres56 said:Nah, I don't see it that way at all—to me, it doesn't feel like segregation, it just feels like respecting what different groups actually want.
Personally, I think it's a way better option than forcing one side to swallow something they have absolutely no interest in.

But isn't forcing someone to participate in an election they have no interest in—right in the middle of their scheduled time—just another way of being disrespectful to the other group?

I can't help but wonder what would happen if we actually offered a real choice between electives—like, say, choosing between religious studies, math, a foreign language, or computer science.

Last year, I actually sat down with someone from the local school board to talk about how they could introduce a new elective if enough parents signed up. They basically brushed me off, saying it wasn’t possible because the schedule is already set in stone and adding anything else would just overlap with existing classes. When I pointed out that it wouldn't have to clash with religion classes—that it would be one or the other—the lady just laughed at me and explained how "unfeasible" that was...

And honestly, my kid isn't taking those classes for a few specific reasons:

a) It doesn't interest him; he'll get plenty of chances to learn that stuff elsewhere.
b) The textbook is just painfully dull.
c) I don't want to be part of a community that turns a blind eye to others, so this is my way of quietly protesting (sort of like when I didn't tell my boss I was pregnant and ended up getting fired).
d) I refuse to let my child—who is perfectly capable of deciding his own faith or talking about God on his own terms—be raised under rigid dogma and those twisted Pharisaical values you see in certain parts of the American Church, preaching a version of faith that I was never even taught.

Are you kidding me?

I honestly feel for the kids enrolled in religious studies classes. It’s like we assume they lack any sense of discernment or critical thinking, right? Like their brains just don't work yet?

It always seems to boil down to this: if a kid doesn't take those classes, the parents are treated like outcasts who shouldn't even be spoken to. It's as if providing them with extra knowledge is somehow forbidden, and they should just be left to fend for themselves without any guidance at all.

Personally, I wouldn't dream of trying to fix one injustice by committing another, even if there were strict rules about supplemental education. How does that even work? You try to solve a problem by making things worse? That's just nonsense.

At the end of the day, parents should have the same freedom to choose between an extra math tutor and a religious studies class.

Man, why’d you delete your comment? I wanted to ask you something—how exactly is it possible to ensure equal treatment for kids who don't attend religious studies when the teachers are still getting paid for those classes?

nimblelynx7 said:Someone on this forum mentioned a while back that a parent was up in arms because a teacher was using the kids who skipped religious class to practice math, claiming the religious students were being left behind.

That was actually me who wrote that. I think that’s why I brought it up earlier.

rowdypanther12 said:Yeah, honestly, if it wasn't for my company, I wouldn't even be considering this option.
I’m planning on thanking her, though it feels like the school is actually the one who should be thanking me for saving them from all my constant emails and threats to contact the Department of Education.😂

NASA mentioned today: "That's part of my scheduled hours."

I really need to pull her aside and ask how that actually works. And yeah, she made it pretty clear that things will stay this way again this year, because they do a great job and actually enjoy the extra work—plus, she noted it's an opportunity reserved specifically for students who don't take religious studies. Apparently, the whole setup is going to change next year.

I'm dying to know how they'll pull that off.

rowdypanther12 said:Forget all this debate about whether religion should be taught in schools—I think Jesus would probably be bored by it anyway. What I’m actually curious about is seeing how schools handle the logistics for kids who don't attend those classes once the discussion settles down.

I’m going to find out today if my teacher is actually going to follow through on her offer to give us some extra math tutoring. 😁

hiddendriver34 said:Look, this debate has been chewed over a million times already, so I don’t have much to add—but my take is pretty simple: religious studies just doesn't belong in the public school system.

That said, my kid is actually enrolled in it.

Back in first grade, we signed him up mainly to sidestep all the political drama surrounding the topic for a while.

Beyond the fact that we weren't sure what the school's logistics were—like where he’d even go if he didn't attend—we just wanted him to experience it for one year. We didn't want it to feel like some mysterious, forbidden subject he wasn't allowed to touch; we wanted him to get a feel for it so he could make his own choice later on.

He was a little torn this summer, but he ultimately decided he wants to stick with it this year too.

At the end of the day, the call is his. As long as he wants to go, we're behind him. If he decides to quit, we're behind him there, too (unless someone starts preaching that being gay is a sin or something along those lines—then the decision shifts back to me. 😉)

By the way, since I’ve been spending quite a bit of time lately scrolling through political forums, I noticed that one specific party is the only smart one to openly state that religious education shouldn't be part of the school curriculum. It seems like nobody else has the guts to say it out loud—so just be careful who you're voting for this Sunday.😉

Mine went for one hour and then the school told us they won't continue.

For the rest of the year, his teacher is giving them extra math help instead. And honestly, I'm grateful for that.