Posts by graniteharbor502

I find myself wondering, as I sit here contemplating the day ahead, what the current situation is regarding the timing and the general weather forecast?

Jason Campbell70 said:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXRbgnqIG_Q

What is there left to say? Truly, what can one even say about this?

🙏🙏🙏

When you see them just floor it and somehow manage to catch up to the Mercedes-Benz on the straight without any struggle at all, doesn't it simply go to show what an absolute beast that Ferrari really is?

Larry Fox5 said:It’s pure madness. People aren't following him because he’s driving for a brand that lacks any real history or deep-rooted tradition. If he were behind the wheel of a Ferrari tomorrow, wouldn't he suddenly have an entire army of supporters at his back? There is such a small group of true fanatics—those of us who have followed Formula 1 for decades—who actually connect with the driver, whereas the vast majority simply follow the constructor. I have been watching this sport for twenty-five years now, and frankly, I can't even bring myself to care about this Red Bull team despite all those titles they've racked up in recent years; however, to claim that Sebastian Vettel lacks class is nothing short of insanity.

You have to realize that the reason people don't care for him is simply because he’s stuck in the wrong car, not because his talent is lacking.

Well, that seems perfectly clear to me, just as it is perfectly clear to me that he would possess a massive legion of admirers if only he were driving for Ferrari.

swifttiger75 said:Is there any sport on this planet that is more exact or measurable than this?

It seems to me that some people in this forum attempt to gauge a driver's true talent by nothing more than mere guesswork and superficial whimsy.

Jason Campbell70 said:I find myself wondering... how is it that even after Sebastian Vettel’s third consecutive championship title, after who knows how many broken records, and following yet another display of absolute dominance in both qualifying and the race itself... how is it that people still find themselves dragging out these debates regarding whether all of Sebastian Vettel’s successes are truly deserved?
How could it be that after the last race (which was held on completely neutral ground) the crowd chose to boo Sebastian Vettel? And specifically him... while they greeted the other two drivers with thunderous ovations?
How can it be that Sebastian Vettel still maintains such a meager following compared to the other drivers? Even here on this forum.
How? He is, by any measure, the best, the record-breaker, the overwhelmingly dominant force.

It is quite evident that there is something else at play here...

Who exactly is questioning if Sebastian Vettel deserves his wins? It is simply the fans of other drivers, those who realize they will never touch a championship because they cannot overcome the German.
And why the booing of Sebastian Vettel? If you look at the previous answer, the reason becomes clear.
Why isn't Sebastian Vettel popular? Because he wins constantly, and frankly, it has become tedious. Wouldn't it be nice if he just let someone else have a single title for once?

Yes, there really is "something" else. Most likely, the fans of Fernando Alonso simply cannot wrap their heads around it, because how can anyone dare to consistently defeat what they consider to be the "greatest" driver?

Your arguments don't hold water. They are parched for some sort of logical reasoning.

Jason Campbell70 said:Just being blunt.
If we are going to discuss statistics—actual, objective numbers—then let us look at that 109-109 score against a driver who finished the season in second place only to become the world champion the very next year.

Well, it seems to me that Vettel had those elite, championship-winning teams behind him compared to his teammates. 😍

I am not grasping at straws here. If the score sits at 109-109, isn't it obvious to anyone with even a basic grasp of mathematics that there wasn't a clear victor? And even if one were to apply the secondary tie-breaking criteria used to determine rankings when points are equal, does Alonso emerge as the winner? No; he actually ends up, quite remarkably, as the loser in that specific head-to-head matchup.
Vettel has consistently outperformed every single one of his teammates throughout his career. If he manages to maintain this trend until he retires, wouldn't that data suggest he stands even above someone like Ayrton Senna, or perhaps even Michael Schumacher?

shadowstag10 said:So, does being a Top driver now just mean driving for Red Bull Racing, regardless of whether they actually hold a World Championship title?

If we follow what stormybadger8 would likely argue—that three is greater than two, which logically implies it is also greater than zero—then it seems he is being grouped right alongside Jean-Éric Vergne and that whole collection of mediocre drivers (though I suppose I chose Vergne by chance)

By that same logic, Mark Webber is merely an average driver, nothing more.

Personally, I hold Webber in high regard and consider him a top-tier talent, yet somehow, suddenly, the criteria of winning a World Championship no longer applies when discussing him?

And can anyone truly point to a moment where I claimed Sebastian Vettel wasn't a top driver? The only thing no one can do is prove, using actual statistics, that he is superior to Fernando Alonso.

On a serious note, my regards to you all; thank you for the constructive debate, but I simply have no more time for this.

A "Top driver"? Who exactly used that term? I merely stated he isn't an average driver; in my view, he is an exceptionally good driver. However, as you pointed out yourself, he lacks that championship title required to reach the absolute pinnacle.
It is much like how one can never definitively prove whether Fernando Alonso is better than Sebastian Vettel.

shadowstag10 said:Why don't you just list all those world champions he actually had to face as a teammate?

If we are looking strictly at Mark Webber's results, one might argue he was merely an average teammate—forgive me, sukki—but let us not even begin to discuss the caliber of drivers he shared a garage with during his time at AlphaTauri.

If my memory serves me correctly, Alonso was trailing behind Jarno Trulli back in 2004, right around the time Trulli was bumped from Renault.
Furthermore, calling Webber an average driver simply doesn't hold water; if he were truly mediocre, there is no way he would have ever secured a seat at Red Bull Racing.
I find myself wondering, what more could Vettel possibly have achieved to satisfy your perception of his talent? What is the expectation here? Should he attempt to start every single race from the pit lane? The man did exactly what was required to secure the championship, and he managed to do it three times in a row. So, I must pose this question to you: in the last three years, could he have possibly earned more than he already has? After all, how can one possibly perform better than finishing in first place?

shadowstag10 said:Wait, did I ask if it was during the second or third season?

So, I suppose in the first two seasons it is perfectly obvious that Nick Heidfeld holds the edge, yet suddenly, by the third season, Sebastian Vettel undergoes this magical transformation into a superhuman being, reversing everything in his favor solely due to some incredible abilities that just happened to manifest out of thin air after the previous years?

I am simply stepping away from this discussion now, as it seems impossible to convince you that results aren't the only metric that matters, so please do not expect any further reply from me.

Oh, come now. It is quite evident that you have run out of arguments and are retreating instead. If one intends to compare two drivers, should they not do so across their entire shared tenure rather than cherry-picking only the specific window that suits their narrative? Nick Heidfeld was arguably superior to Sebastian Vettel in 2007, a year in which Vettel only participated in eight races. He was better over the course of a full season in 2008, only to be left far behind during 2009, 2010, and 2011.
And there is another interesting detail to consider:

To this point, Sebastian Vettel has never actually lost an intra-team battle. One certainly cannot say the same regarding Fernando Alonso.

shadowstag10 said:You keep circling back to the race results, but if you intend to be this obstinate and refuse to entertain any perspective other than your own, what is really the point of us even having this discussion?

Then perhaps you might enlighten me as to why Nick Heidfeld wasn't actually the superior driver compared to Sebastian Vettel during those two seasons, given that in terms of race pace and even overtakes, he was consistently finishing ahead of him?

I have made a concerted effort to answer every single one of your inquiries, so I must ask that you refrain from meeting my thoughts with such counter-questions.

Nick Heidfeld hasn't secured a single victory, let alone a championship title, which makes your comparison rather absurd if we are being honest. However, if you truly insist on making that specific comparison, Sebastian Vettel was the more successful driver over three seasons. Therefore, even against him, he maintains a positive score.

shadowstag10 said:He’s certainly slower when it comes to that single qualifying lap, but on the flip side, he excels at reading the race, maintaining a steady pace during the Grand Prix, and if I may be so bold, I’d say his overtaking is superior as well.

In what specific ways is Sebastian Vettel actually better, because I find myself struggling to see the evidence?

Look at those championship titles listed in the history books... Won through sheer situational awareness, consistent race tempo, and—believe it or not—superiority in overtaking maneuvers.

shadowstag10 said:Why don't you just put together a massive spreadsheet comparing him to Sergio Perez? I am truly burning with anticipation to find out if Vettel was actually superior to him. 😂
I mean, let us simply disregard every single external factor and focus solely on the raw results to conduct such an evaluation.

Would you perhaps go as far as to compare Nick Heidfeld against Vettel during Vettel's debut season?
Does that imply that Heidfeld was somehow an incomparably better driver during that specific year?

Perhaps we could strive to be a bit more constructive and instead address the actual question: in what specific ways is Fernando Alonso a better driver than Vettel?

shadowstag10 said:Alright, you're being objective here, and I suppose you have a point—Bill Russell is indeed better than Jordan, so please accept my apologies.

I am somewhat perplexed as to how Bill Russell and Jordan relate to the discussion regarding Sebastian Vettel and Fernando Alonso; there really is no need for such apologies, is there? I shall attempt to weigh the arguments concerning those latter two drivers with the objectivity they deserve.

Roger Wright94 said:Happiness and satisfaction are mere emotions, rather than objective criteria. Personally, at least within the realm of Formula 1, I find myself entirely unable to influence the external events that serve as the raw input for those feelings.

If five hundred thousand people are telling you that results—specifically regarding the standings on the leaderboard—are not the sole and absolute metric of a driver's quality, then fine; if that is how you choose to view the world, I simply give up.

Back in '96 and '97, Michael Schumacher secured three wins and five victories during an era when the Ferrari was significantly inferior to the Williams. During those years, I felt immensely happy, satisfied, and deeply convinced that Ferrari was on the path to glory and that Schumacher was a superior driver to both Damon Hill and Villeneuve. Fast forward to 2006, when the title was lost to Fernando Alonso, I found myself feeling and thinking in much the same way.
I didn't feel even a shred of regret over that lost championship compared to the profound sense of loss I felt when Schumacher decided to retire.

No, they aren't. However, if I am truly forced to compare two drivers who competed during the same era, then in the absence of any other definitive metrics, I have no choice but to rely upon the results. When one examines the data, Schumi emerges as the better driver when measured against Hill and Villeneuve. The man secured seven championships, a fact that no one has ever dared to question.
As for how much more inferior the Ferrari is compared to Red Bull, I couldn't tell you. What I do know is that the Ferrari being driven by Fernando Alonso is a far more competitive machine than many of you seem willing to admit. I would go as far as to suggest it is currently the fastest car under race conditions. Furthermore, Sebastian Vettel has held the top spot in the standings for four years now; surely, one cannot dismiss that as mere coincidence? It is my firm belief that he is the superior driver to Fernando Alonso, though until Alonso manages to best him in a direct fight for the championship, my stance will remain unchanged.

shadowstag10 said:But how can you possibly be certain that Red Bull didn't offer a contract to someone else first, or perhaps they weren't even in a position to land a much more prominent name? Is it not possible that Sebastian Vettel was merely their second or third choice, and then, by some stroke of luck, they hit upon this perfect symbiosis with the car that everyone seems to accept as fact now?

it all falls within the realm of the NBA

Precisely. That is exactly my point. This is why I find myself constantly returning to the cold, hard reality of the results. Who achieved what, and when? One has to wonder, are there perhaps other criteria at play that we aren't considering?

shadowstag10 said:It’s primarily a subjective take, though I suspect those with more expertise than myself would have handed Fernando Alonso the seat at Ferrari over Jean-Eric Vergne.

Is that not exactly how things unfolded when those same experts decided Sebastian Vettel deserved his spot at Red Bull, even going so far as to sign him through the end of 2015? And isn't it highly probable that those very same individuals will eventually offer Vettel a contract—if they haven't already—to drive for Ferrari? If we follow that logic, what exactly are we meant to hold onto, if not actual results? As for Fernando Alonso, thank God, he has been driving incredibly competitive cars since 2005 (though I shall make an exception for 2008 and 2009). We all understand how the math works there. Vettel has had a competitive car for a slightly shorter duration, so we can just as easily see what his statistics actually represent.

shadowstag10 said:Let's stir the pot just a little bit here—is Bill Russell actually superior to Jordan?

As has been previously observed, raw statistics rarely capture the full spectrum of true greatness.
At this particular moment, Sebastian Vettel holds the more impressive record, yet whether he truly possesses greater talent is something that defies easy measurement, making any definitive claim somewhat precarious. During his time at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, Vettel managed the race with remarkable composure, and one must certainly offer him credit for that, though his recent actions suggest he may still be struggling to maintain his mental focus.

That is a fair point. If we follow that logic, how then could one possibly assert that Fernando Alonso is a better driver than, say, Jean-Eric Vergne?

Roger Wright94 said:By what metric on earth is this being measured?

One should look at the results, shouldn't one? Do you happen to possess a more sophisticated instrument for measurement, or are we simply destined to rely upon the whims of luck and pure satisfaction—those incredibly objective criteria, if you will—that come from watching Fernando Alonso drive?

Roger Wright94 said:So, you're essentially claiming that your own perspective is the baseline for objectivity.
And by that logic, I suppose everyone who happens to agree with you is also being perfectly objective?
This was really hardly necessary to point out.

No, my starting point is actually the actual, tangible results achieved on the track. While I certainly don't claim to be an objective judge when it comes to choosing my personal favorite or my most beloved driver—for who could truly be impartial in matters of the heart?—I can certainly strive for objectivity, as much as any human being possibly can, when interpreting the data and the final standings.
To be quite frank, you haven't exactly proven yourself to be a particularly serious interlocutor thus far. However, I shall extend to you the opportunity to attempt to change my mind.

swifttiger75 said:I truly believe you all have gone far too extreme with this constant bickering regarding Alonso versus Vettel. If I may be so bold as to offer my own humble opinion? As a devoted Ferrari fan, I find it quite disheartening to see people attempt to diminish Vettel's accomplishments while simultaneously clinging to the glory of Alonso's titles from his days at Renault. There is no denying that we are looking at two of the finest drivers in the sport today; one who is destined to continue etching his name into the history books of Formula 1, and another who, should he fail to secure a championship with Ferrari, might ultimately be remembered as merely an adequate world champion.

Now, while I will admit that I find Vettel somewhat unappealing personally, and that the Red Bull Racing car has been quite the dominant force over recent years, is it not a bit absurd to scrutinize a single moment—be it a momentary spin or a tire brushing against the barrier—while completely ignoring a masterfully executed and controlled race?

Both men have had their opportunities to claim championships in recent seasons, just as they have here. One capitalizes on them, whereas the other does not. One stands as a three-time world champion, while the other does not; one has secured a victory at the Canadian Grand Prix, while the other finished second; one leads the standings, while the other does not.

At this present moment, Vettel remains the superior driver compared to Alonso, and he shall remain so until Alonso himself—rather than you, my dear fans of the prancing horse—proves otherwise.

Is it not better if we simply keep our fingers crossed and take pleasure in the sheer brilliance displayed by both of them?

Well done! It truly warms my heart to see that there are still objective Ferrari fans present within this forum.