Posts by cosmicraven

We aren't even talking about the same timeframe here—I’m looking at the period from 10 or 12 years ago. The real shift happened back in the late 90s when any trace of leftist influence just evaporated, making way for the total dominance of right-wing iconography.

Edward Hernandez332 said:I’m not sure when this whole nationalist obsession started, but I know it really ticked off the older crowd in the fleet—those guys lost way too much in the war to just sit there and take it.

Look, my take is that the "old guard" didn't react to provocations because they just laughed them off. They didn't feel the need to justify themselves to anyone... they knew exactly who they were. That’s why back then, while they still held their ground, you could actually push through that leftist iconography. Lately? You don't see that kind of stuff happening in the West at all. At least, I haven't noticed—and given my line of work, I usually spot those things immediately.

ruggedfalcon30 said:Look, I can agree with some of this, but saying the "younger fleet has taken control" is just wrong. There’s such a thing as hierarchy. It flows from the top down—from the veterans to the rookies. Sure, you’ve got plenty of younger guys, maybe 21 to 25, who have influence, but that authority stays strictly within their own age bracket or younger.

That's a pretty lazy generalization. We all know how things actually work on the ground.

The issue isn't the "old guard" hanging out in the stands. People still respect them and listen to them, but they don't show up to the West Side anymore, let alone travel for those away games that actually matter for your standing in the league.

Instead of just laughing off these kinds of provocations, your young people feel the need to explain themselves and "prove" something. It’s a shame 🤷

Larry Rivera83 said:Honestly, they went way too far with all this "proving" stuff. In my opinion, it wasn't even necessary in the first place.

Yeah, well, the real question is why things started slipping in the first place... I’ve got a theory on that—(I hate dividing things by age, but here we go)—the "old school" fleet that actually fought through the war and paid their dues could handle some provocations from other groups because they knew what was what. They knew the real BBB or Torcida fans (and basically every American citizen, really) knew exactly who those guys were and, more importantly, where they stood when things actually hit the fan. But then, when the younger generation took over the reins in the late 90s, they couldn't deal with constant pressure. Instead, they take the path of least resistance. Now, they try to prove their American identity using that classic, tired method: slapping an "USA" on a banner just to show everyone they're patriotic. It's shallow.

Larry Rivera83 said:and that’s where things start going south for me... it turned into this forced obsession with proving how patriotic everyone is, basically "purging" anyone with a different opinion. They just quietly prioritized one single political viewpoint above everything else, which I think was a mistake. It led to all the fighting, the intolerance, and honestly, it just poisoned the group. There was this quiet split where the right-wing crowd selfishly claimed ownership over the Navy name, leaving no room for anyone who thought differently. Then that whole Žilić scandal happened, which just threw gasoline on the fire and caused a total fallout as people bounced from one extreme to the other...

That's pretty much what I figured. Tell me though—do you think the constant nagging from almost every other group calling you guys "un-American" (not even counting the other insults they throw around) is what pushed that specific faction within the Navy to double down? Like, they felt they had to prove they were actually more patriotic than anyone else just to shut people up.

edit: looking at this more from a sociological perspective rather than a die-hard fan angle—if something feels like a provocation, it probably shouldn't have been said in the first place.

I’ve been chewing on something for a while now and haven't found an answer—I don't personally know any guys from the core Navy fan base, so I'm throwing this out to the forum...

So, Navy fans, Cleveland locals, or anyone else who thinks they have a say in the whole supporter culture thing... if my memory serves, back in the mid-to-late 90s, there was some leftist iconography popping up in the stands among the Navy crowd. I distinctly remember one huge banner featuring a red flag with Che Guevara right in the middle, and another double-pole flag with "everything changes, we stay the same" spray-painted in red (probably a nod to that old letter about the "Cleveland communists"...). There might have been more, but nothing else comes to mind right now—I don't have any old fan gear handy to check, though maybe I'll dig something up when I'm back in the States.

So, what was the deal? Was it just a phase? A joke? Some specific subgroup running with it? Or a genuine attempt at building the first pro-left fan group in America? Anyone know?

Also, I'm curious—why did it stop? Why did everyone just settle into the boring political gray area most US fan groups inhabit nowadays? Even though most groups claim to be "apolitical," you can clearly see the right-wing leaning dominating the visual stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to flirt with politics here—I'm strictly against any kind of political ideology in stadiums or arenas—but I think it would've been interesting to have one group with a different vibe than the rest. It adds tension, and honestly, the visual clash would've been pretty cool to watch.

EDIT: If I'm not mistaken, there was also some joke involving Che Guevara from one of the local chapters (maybe the Luz?)

copperdriver21 said:anyone born in America who calls themselves an American is an AMERICAN to me. obsessing over DNA sequences is just a rabbit hole that leads nowhere...

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6581/sobkn7.gif http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6581/sobkn7.gif

besides, why bother arguing about being a die-hard BBB supporter or a hardcore fan... you gonna tell someone they aren't American just because their genes aren't 100% pure? leave the DNA alone. actions matter more.

let's just chill out on this thread. no need to start a fight...

Sean Nguyen4 said:There were Mexicans in Seattle just like in Washington, D.C. or Miami. They're still here after the war, same as anywhere else.

The numbers are actually higher than in St. Louis or D.C.—according to the 2001 census, St. Louis is about 95% American, D.C. is over 90%, and Seattle is around 80%. Obviously, that remaining 20% isn't all Mexicans, and we all know how we Americans tend to view minorities... 😁

When you factor in that your cities weren't getting leveled during the war, plus the '87 buyout and the Communist Party USA winning those first elections—you guys are basically acting like true Midwesterners! 😉

Don't get me wrong, I think most of this is complete nonsense too, but I feel like you can actually draw a conclusion from these things if you want to understand the typical, nasty American mindset. mind

Lino =
Božo Sušec =
We need
Balić back.
America