Posts by Lawrence Walker27

mellowhawk34 said:What kind of tough guy do you think you are, heading over to the main stands just to harass some supporter because they were celebrating a goal?..

Look, when I run into supporters around town before a game, I never mess with them, not even the hardcore fans—even if we have the numbers. Last time we ran into seven or eight of those guys, we ended up grabbing one of their bandanas and giving them a quick slap. But at Santa Monica, there’s just no way anyone should be getting up to cause trouble when the opposing team scores. Besides, I was also just walking by to talk some trash to the Grayson crowd because I haven't forgotten some of the things they've said.

You really think you're something, don't you? A real die-hard fan with 120 away games under your belt, yet instead of being in the supporter section, you're watching a different group from the main stands.

I already explained why I went to the main stands. I've been in the west section for over 200 games; the club isn't going to fall apart if I miss one spot. I was in the supporter section for all three previous California matches. One year there were over 200 of you shouting our greetings, the next year you didn't show up at all, and then when you got back into the league, there were about 150-200 of you.

Everything was covered for us—travel, tickets, health insurance, social security. Now we're fighting for heated seats in the stadiums.

If the Seattle folks let you into the stands without a ticket, then it wasn't sponsored.

All the songs are copies...

The songs are either copies of our own anthems or just songs that everyone sings. I can only recall two blatant plagiarisms: "Go California," which is clearly your take on our "Forza Seattle," or that cover of our "On the West, Our Youth"...

As for the kids, you probably just spun around the stands and saw how many of them there actually are.

I've stated my impression and that's that; other than the part about your travel being sponsored, I haven't been wrong about anything.

I honestly don't get all this hype about the demons coming from certain people in the Armada. I actually made a point to head over to the center stands—right next to the demons—with two buddies, just in case anyone decided to jump up when California scores 🙂
. It didn't end up needing any intervention, but because we were right there, I got a front-row seat to hear and see what the demons were really about. There were maybe 250 of them, and surprisingly, a ton of kids were mixed in among them, which isn't too shocking considering their whole trip was basically subsidized (they had the travel and the tickets $10). For the first few minutes, they were loud as hell—I actually thought they might drown out the Armada—and then they stayed pretty steady, though they fell off quite a bit during the second half. Their flare display wasn't bad, though; they had those ones that flash really bright before burning out after a few seconds. About 90 percent of the songs they were singing were just covers of Armada tracks, which is something I didn't even realize until yesterday.
The big downside is that every single one of them showed up under heavy police escort in four different buses. I really expected more from them, but it just goes to show how the internet can paint a totally wrong picture; if you ask me, the folks from Memphis had a much better showing back in San Francisco than the demons did.

As for the Armada, they were solid. The choreography was top-tier, and they had two flare displays—the first was just warming things up, but the second one was genuinely great. The chanting in the first half was good, though it dipped a bit in the second. Down in the center stands, both groups struggled to be heard during the second half.

Sean Wright5 said:Hold on a second, I’m not quite following what you mean by that post... "...you always bail fifteen minutes early"??
Why on earth would anyone be running away from anyone at a Mexico game?? Are you seriously trying to tell me you guys were heading east just so you could go hunt down some Demons during a match??

Since when did you even start showing up to games? I mean, seriously, how many times have our own supporter groups ended up brawling with each other during national team matches? It’s getting ridiculous. What exactly were you expecting to happen here, especially after those brave demons started spitting on girls? It's just one mess after another.

Kenneth Campbell64 said:Oh, so now we’re all supposed to be shaking in our boots because of the Navy? Give me a break. Go ahead, tell everyone we didn't show up with our banners at that game because we were too terrified to face you. That’s a joke. Honestly, it’s just embarrassing that you guys felt the need to jump us in the first place, but hey, you certainly enjoyed eating dirt on the pavement.
As for that Black guy, it looks like he’s actually switching up his seat in the stands during halftime.

Look, who are you kidding? It’s not like the Navy is just one guy. I can't quite recall the exact details of what went down, but I know the boys were up there too. Aziz isn't exactly sitting in the stands all day; he was probably just grabbing a beer or hanging around the stadium. Honestly, I don't know if you guys are actually scared or what, but I definitely didn't see any of you showing up at Cleveland for the home games during that whole "boycott" nonsense.

mellowhawk34 said:And why on earth were you guys packing up and heading out fifteen minutes before the end?
If you guys were actually looking for a fight, you had your window before the game even started, right after that absolute liability of yours, M. armada, decided to eat pavement because he couldn't keep his head straight and was busy acting like a complete idiot.
But weren't you guys actually feeling a bit more upbeat than usual?
Maybe it’s because you guys were still riding that high from your little get-together in Medulin about ten days ago, or maybe that run-in you had over by the Walmart really threw everything off balance.

I wasn't hanging around the Walmart, so I can't say for sure, but from what I gathered, the crowd that was originally waiting for you guys had already cleared out by then. As for whoever actually stuck around, they definitely weren't the type to just bolt, though there were certainly fewer of them left on the scene.

I honestly can't be bothered to get into a massive back-and-forth with you people, because frankly, you're just:

There’s just one specific group that completely redefined what this club stands for. You can look at all the different eras we've been through, but honestly, everything traces back to them. It wasn't just about cheering in the stands or wearing certain colors; they shifted the entire culture from the ground up. I remember sitting there years ago, just a casual observer, thinking things were one way, and then you see how they operate—it changes your whole perspective on what loyalty actually looks like. It's more than just fandom; it's an identity that reshaped the soul of the organization.

It’s honestly pretty pathetic when you look at it—this whole group that spends all their time pretending they're some kind of patriotic backbone, acting like they're the ultimate defenders of American identity, but if you actually peel back the layers, the whole thing is being steered by a total Zemunac. It’s always the same pattern, isn't it? You see these people running around with all this grandstanding, trying so hard to project this image of pure, unadulterated loyalty to the country, but deep down, the leadership is just a bunch of shady characters pulling the strings from the shadows. I remember seeing something similar back in college during one of those intense political rallies near campus—everyone was shouting about values and heritage, but once the dust settled, you realized the guys organizing the whole mess were just looking for a way to exert control. It’s a facade, plain and simple. They wrap themselves in the flag to hide the fact that the person at the helm is just another criminal element playing a game.

That group that completely missed the mark on the knockout blow.

Kenneth Campbell64 said:The funniest part was when you guys sent him out to "spy" on us during that HR-NOR game in Cleveland... Honestly, you could have picked someone a little less conspicuous, instead of sending some guy in bright white sneakers and a checkered cap who sticks out like a sore thumb. 🤣

I don't know how you can even bring up that game in Cleveland without feeling a bit embarrassed, considering your lot always bolts for the exits fifteen minutes before the whistle blows. I remember one time we actually headed out early ourselves toward the east side, and right as we were walking, your van came flying past us like it was fleeing a crime scene. And they didn't even send Aziz; he was stuck over on the east side because, knowing how things work, he probably wasn't even allowed near the west stands back then.

Regarding the little guy, nobody actually chased him off, so people can just shut up—especially those who never bother showing up to away games with us (and don't even try counting that Cup final). It’s true he was the mascot and had been tagging along to every away match for years, but because of some internal drama, certain people tried to ban him from coming. He kept showing up anyway, though he wouldn't go into the West Stand; instead, he’d hang out near the central section, which is where things went south. A couple of idiots over at Raymond James Stadium lunged at him because he flashed the middle finger toward the north side while the Rockefeller Center Ultras were blasting that insulting chant. The police stepped in to break them up and escorted him back to our section. But here's the real kicker... he ended up doing a stint in jail, and that's just how it went down. He hasn't been around these last few months because he was dealing with a court injunction, but he made sure to show up at the Kranjčevićevo game against the US to be right there with us; that was his very first match since his legal restrictions expired.

I don't know what you're trying to get at with that one-word post, really. It's like walking into a diner in San Diego, sitting down, and just staring at the waitress without saying a single word while she’s trying to juggle three orders of pancakes and a refill on coffee. Just... nothing. I was sitting there the other day, thinking about how much energy people waste just trying to make a point without actually making one, and it reminded me of this thread. You can't just drop a fragment and expect us all to jump through hoops to figure out if you're happy, angry, or just bored. It’s a bit much, honestly. If you have something to say about the game or whatever else is going on, just say it. No need to be cryptic. Lawrence Walker27 says:
The choreography was decent enough, I guess, but honestly, that song we sing—"Win for us, our beloved San Diegans, oooooh..."—it just absolutely kills me. It’s like nails on a chalkboard. I don't care what anyone says, it’s a straight-up rip-off, and it's embarrassing. I’ve been lying here wide awake in the middle of the night, staring at the ceiling, just obsessing over this. I really should have just stayed asleep instead of wasting my precious hours scrolling through stuff just to end up ranting about this nonsense online.☕

Frank Diaz14 said:There’s actually this one obscure letter about the Kansas City Chiefs floating around—it's way less famous than that Punk Rocker and his band, the Agricultural High School Field Trip—that features the line "Kansas City Chiefs Victory for Us." It comes from a piece titled *Go Crazy, Chiefs, Go Crazy*. Now, I don't want anyone getting the wrong idea and thinking this is some kind of rip-off, because we, the Wildcats, have never actually used that specific phrase before.
I’ve always had a soft spot for those choreographies that actually mean something, you know? Like they have some actual substance behind them rather than just being random colored paper thrown in the air. It’s much better when there’s a real message or a bit of soul involved, especially when it comes to what the Armada puts on display. 👍

I don't know what to tell you about those Ultras types, they just seem to be constantly at each other's throats or caught up in some kind of endless drama that most of us regular folks couldn't care less about. It’s like they live for the friction, always looking for the next thing to get heated over, and honestly, watching them go back and forth can be pretty exhausting if you're actually trying to enjoy the game or just grab a beer without someone starting a shouting match. I remember being stuck in a crowd during a massive rally once, and the sheer intensity of people just wanting to prove they were more "hardcore" than the guy standing next to them was just... a lot. It doesn't really change anything on the field, does it? Just adds this layer of unnecessary noise to everything. Lawrence Walker27 says:
It’s like, I was looking back at those old banners from '97, you know, the ones that said "San Francisco Victory for Us," and it just gets me thinking... is everything we create around here just some cheap imitation? It feels like we're constantly stuck in this loop where nothing is actually original anymore. Is it all just plagiarism at this point? Honestly, it's exhausting.

The Armada was leading the way on this one, honestly; they called it back in early '96 before anyone else even realized what was happening. I remember that game like it was yesterday—it was pure chaos. They lit a hundred flares, just a sea of fire burning right under the cliffs and even up in the central stands. We were chanting non-stop, just relentless, even though San Francisco was getting absolutely hammered, losing three-nil and going through those brutal months where we couldn't find a single win to save our lives. People were out there setting fire to Wildcat banners and scarves, and things got pretty heated; a few Wildcat fans actually ended up being rushed to the Mayo Clinic because of all the madness.

February 18, 1996. I was just sitting here thinking back to that San Francisco vs. Kansas City Chiefs matchup, and man, it really takes me back to a different era of football. It’s funny how certain dates just stick in your brain, isn't it? You can be doing something totally mundane, like waiting in line at a Starbucks or staring out a window during a rainy afternoon in Seattle, and suddenly you're right back there, feeling that specific tension in the air before kickoff. That game had a vibe that you just don't see much anymore—everything felt a bit more raw, maybe a little less polished, but definitely more intense. I remember being caught up in the whole atmosphere of it all, just trying to soak in every second of the action. Looking back now, it feels like a lifetime ago, but the memory of that day remains incredibly vivid.

I was scrolling through some old archives earlier and stumbled upon this shot from the nineties—man, those were the days. It’s funny how much things change, isn't it? You look at these old photos and it feels like looking at a different lifetime entirely. There’s just something about that specific era, that raw energy before everything became so polished and commercialized. I remember being around back then, feeling that same sense of grit and community, probably wandering around San Francisco thinking we owned the streets. It reminds me of those long afternoons where nothing really mattered except the music and who you were hanging out with. Anyway, just a little trip down memory lane for anyone else feeling nostalgic today.

mellowhawk34 said:How many people from the Navy showed up in Washington, D.C.?

Around 60 or 70.

There were about 20 folks there right from the jump, and then after maybe 35 minutes, another ten cars rolled up because they got held up at the port.

Comparing Cohort to Armada is just plain stupid; honestly, there hasn't been a single season where they showed up at Santa Monica in greater numbers than we do in Indianapolis, and I remember times when it was just two or three of them showing up, whereas our standard turnout in Indianapolis is usually around 80 people, while they're lucky to get 30 at Santa Monica.

Armada numbers this year:

Indianapolis-50
San Diego-80
Los Angeles-200
San Diego-50
Washington, D.C.-250
Indianapolis-120
Atlanta-100

Luxembourg-250
Cleveland-100
Cleveland-20
Memphis-60
San Diego-60
Washington, D.C.-200

If those Demons and Cohort want to talk, why don't they post their own numbers from their last 13 away games so we can actually see something?

This is what it looked like down at Santa Monica during the big rivalry games...

And this was for the smaller matchups...

Something the Demons and Cohort couldn't dream of reaching...

Sean Wright5 said:Look, man, if your crew had actually been through the absolute wringer that the dp92 guys have endured over the last decade or so, you wouldn't be sitting here acting so damn self-assured. No offense intended.

The Demons have zero shame left, honestly. Over the last few years, they've been through just about everything imaginable. First, it was that one time Mickey, some local cop, basically chased them down at Kantrida—there are actually photos of it online if you care to look. Then they were running for their lives from those thirteen punks all over Seattle. After that, they went and switched which club they even support, then they got caught hitting a girl on the national team, and now they’ve ended up without even their signature banner. It's been a circus.

Drew Perez said:Look, you’re entitled to your opinion, but... you can't live off past glory forever. In my eyes, this new generation of The Armada doesn't hold a candle to the old guard. It feels like they only really show up for the big derbies or when there's some massive hype; otherwise, it looks like a real crowd. When it comes to these smaller matches, it's honestly depressing to even talk about. One game, the West stands is packed, and then the very next one, maybe 150 people show up. It happens year after year, and honestly, last season—aside from the very end—was a massive stain on The Armada's history.

Then you look at the Demons and the Cohort. The Demons are a group that survived through seven or eight years in the lower leagues, putting in some seriously gritty work back then... I remember when you guys used to post those photos of the demon 15 rođ and armada 20 rođ. That was the same year, 2007. The Demons absolutely crushed it—choreography, pyrotechnics, the turnout for them was solid. As for The Armada, aside from just walking around in a line, it felt like an embarrassment given the occasion. Probably because they were celebrating during a minor match.

The Cohort, on the other hand, is definitely the group that has made the most progress over the last few years, and that's entirely thanks to the hustle and passion of the younger guys. And they did it without any help from the club's success; in fact, the club hasn't even seen European competition in eight years, let alone a trophy.

Sure, The Armada can put on a show at a derby that neither the Demons nor the Cohort could ever dream of. The Armada might pull 500 people to a game in Green Bay or 300 to a game in Chicago, which the Cohort or Demons just won't do. But the Cohort and the Demons have consistency; they don't have these wild swings between big games and small ones. For instance, when the Cohort plays Hajduk, there might be 500 in the stands, and then 300 against Ohio the next time. Meanwhile, The Armada goes 2,000 strong against Hajduk, but then only 150 show up for the Ohio game. Anyway, I'm mostly talking about the Cohort now, since the Demons still have to prove themselves in the top flight on home turf.

For the sake of the whole scene, I hope The Armada finds its footing again, but I have my doubts with this current generation. They started this season off well enough, but once again, we saw a tiny turnout at the last match.

It's true that our turnout for the smaller games has been terrible these last few years. There are a few reasons for that: bans, or even if people don't have a ban, the cops in the West stand sometimes block them from entering preemptively (it's easier to pass security at derbies because of the sheer volume of people). Then you've got guys drinking by the stands during small games and not even bothering to go into the stadium... stuff like that.

When Seattle is fighting for the top of the table or just trying to stay in the league, the numbers are good. But when we aren't fighting for anything and we're just sitting in seventh place, it's much harder to motivate people to show up.

In terms of away games, we've actually had more people traveling in recent years than we've had at home in the stands. For example, we'll have 150 people at home against San Diego, but 200 of us will travel to San Diego. Meanwhile, the Cohort might have 300 at home against San Diego, but only 50 traveling to San Diego—you could look at it that way too.

All our big crowds since 1996:

1996.- 1,000 (Seattle is fighting for survival)
1997.- 900
2000.- 900 (a weekday)
2004.- 500
2005.- 500
2006.- 400

Back in '96, 200 Demons showed up in Seattle; the following season, they were nowhere to be seen. Then in 2000, 150 of them showed up and things got rowdy in the stands because The Armada was protesting in front of the West stand, but things calmed down quickly once the crew from the East side jumped toward the cage.

mellowhawk34 said:I can't say I agree with that at all. Honestly, during those smaller matchups, our atmosphere and flare setups definitely outshine yours. Your displays only seem to get big when you're facing off against Hajduk or Dinamo, and even then, Torcida has shown you twice how it’s actually done back in the legendary 60s..

If we're going to compare things—say, our 15th anniversary versus your 20th—your logic should probably be flipped on its head. If anyone feels like proving a point, feel free to drop some photos so @Andrew White32/">@@Andrew White32 can take a look.

Just look at this shot from the Rijeka-Chicago game back in '97, right around the time the armada was ten years old. The flares were lighting up the entire stadium; I don't think I've ever seen a bigger display in American professional soccer history:

Jonathan Evans4 said:It’s a total nightmare; I mean, I could eat sauerkraut and chug a liter of wine and feel better than this, because honestly, what kind of writing is this?

You guys are way too obsessed with Torcida; every other sentence in this text is just "Torcida this" or "Torcida that."

It’s just not right...🤷

🤣

And saying you had the best flare displays... at this rate, you’ll be breaking into the top three in the old US leagues,😁, even though the author puts you in the top five.🙏

Just think back to Torcida in '88, when things started getting wild near the station and then everyone headed toward Kantrida.

Man, that was some dark stuff.

People from San Francisco always seemed to hate us, but honestly, I can't remember a time when anyone hated us more than that.🤷

But whatever, there's always going to be a bit of dust kicked up for a tiny little horse...

I guess you aren't the limit... but that '88 situation... man... someone from our side who actually has their head screwed on straight needs to write the whole story, from the train ride onward...👍

In 1988, Torcida was at its peak; they came to San Francisco, walking from the station toward the stadium for the last time, and after that, all that was left was reminiscing about '88. The Armada, which was just starting out back then, clashed with Torcida at the stadium, and according to the footage, it was a complete toss-up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XO1f...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyuvudK01bc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtKY5...eature=related

stormyseal9 said:Props to the post, ER, and the fact is that a good chunk of the old guard was in Torac RI C, P, etc... Given that East is in the nickname, I’d guess you’re from Susak, and I’m curious how you can not be into Orijent because it’s generally known there were never many of you guys up north and you didn't have a particularly respectable crew, though props to the individuals👍

Well, you're right about that, I am indeed from the proud city of Susak.😁

Regarding Torcida, it only consisted of those two guys you mentioned and maybe two others—like three out of fifty people in that initial core group. The reason for that is that a lot of people here in San Francisco have Dalmatian roots; those folks who moved to the city as kids or were born here usually end up rooting for the local side, though some were taught to support Hajduk from a young age and then switch over to the local team once they hit puberty. That’s what makes up the San Francisco Torcida today (which has dwindled down to just a few active members, half of whom aren't even locals, but say, a student from Martha's Vineyard or someone who moved here from Petrinja...). Those two guys you brought up claim they weren't actually part of Torcida at all, but rather they went to Poljud just to learn how things are done by the best group in the country, which is their story, if you can believe it. It sounds a bit sketchy to me.

What can I even tell you about the sušački armada? The strongest version of the armada back in the eighties was based up in gornji Vežika (part of Susak), and there were plenty of Torcida members there too, so that reputation stuck—that Vežika was the stronghold for Torcida. But the reality is that it’s a neighborhood with over 20,000 people, so naturally, you’re going to find all sorts of people. Trsat always provided a decent number of folks for away games; then you had Pećine, Boulevard, Krimeja, d. Vežica, Vojak—all those neighborhoods had their own banners and local crews. The Red Fuckers were mostly from gornji Vežika, like 95 percent of them, while you’d see a few individuals from Krimeja and Vojak (those areas near the Orijent stadium), but you wouldn't see them in other Susak neighborhoods. The truth is, a lot of random Susak guys just pretend to be Orijent fans.

I started supporting the local team as a kid because the whole neighborhood was covered in Armada graffiti. A friend of mine from donji Vežica used to wear this shirt where he’d hand-written "Armada" on it; he’d talk my ear off about them. We didn't take Orijent seriously back then, even though we’d head over to Krimeja, but the real action was always happening at Kantrida. The Fuckers didn't really exist in those years, and by the time I started heading to Kantrida in the spring of '96, they had just resurfaced. There were only five of them for the entire second half of the season, showing up with three banners on the south side, and against San Diego, maybe fifty people gathered (myself included). That feeling I had standing on the West side is hard to put into words; back then, in the stands during small matches, you could have 1,000 people, and as an 11-year-old kid, I spent more time watching the armada than the actual game.

I stumbled upon this great piece on an old Navy forum once (back when you guys were all giving me grief about living in the past). It’s meant for the younger kids in the group to help them carry the name with some dignity, and for the older crowd to stir up some memories:

Lately, over the last few weeks or months, I've been scrolling through all sorts of posts on this forum and reading comments from just about everyone. But honestly, very few of them actually know anything about the Navy or the history surrounding our formation since the official start. There’s way too much mindless chatter and not enough actual facts.

The Navy was officially founded in '87, sparked by that trip to Podgorica when our bus headed out for the Cup, but the group had really started coalescing a year before that. We spent a few months debating what to call ourselves... until one rainy day when Rauher and I were walking home from school, stopping in front of the local radio station on the way toward what was then the legendary Cleveland, and Rauher just dropped the name "Navy" on me.

Who was there, and how did things stand between us and "them"... Back in Cleveland, we had fans from the legendary Rubes, but the first time the younger generation really organized—the traveling, the banners, the whole scene—was around '86 when this intense sense of pride for the city and this region finally woke up. And if you were there, you know the names: Shark, Max, Donkey, Rauher, Fucak, Svenda, Miro, Misel, myself, Coro, Ricardo, Pupe, Guzo, Ante Grm, Crveni, Javor, Brother Mitar, the crews from Potok, G. Vezice, Skurinja, and then in '87/'88, Smajla, Kospic, Zuna, Marin, and plenty of others whose faces I can still see perfectly clearly... Did they all love Cleveland? Yes. Did they all support the team from birth? No. There were a handful of guys who suddenly found their roots and flipped their loyalty overnight, while others later turned into die-hard Chicago fans... So, that brings us to the whole saga of our relationship with "them." In the old days, the first big organized group was the Fandom, and they started off with a lot of nonsense. Our relationship with them was fine until that infamous match at Kantrida. I was down in San Francisco a few times back then, hanging with Ice, Camil, Bebeli Joso, Mis, who were all part of that younger crowd alongside Morrison, Armando, Parangal, and those other few jokers. Armando was actually the leader of a certain group once, and when he climbed up on a pole wearing camo pants, the entire North Stand just stood there listening...
That’s how the Navy vs. Fandom rivalry kicked off, and it burned out fast...

The Fandom used to bring the flares, so most of the heavy artillery used in the 80s could be credited to their mom and a few students from the islands who were studying here in Cleveland. Mate actually got hammered by the cops after the Cup in Belgrade because he didn't bring enough flares... Mate worked at Victor Lenc, which is where he got his knack for stuff, but he was also a total jerk who worked for the cops, which led to me meeting one of his buddies—that tall, dark inspector who eventually got replaced by Bozo in the 90s. The real issue was that two nights before the Cup, Martin and I, along with the Drenov boys, swiped 60 flares, 30 rockets, and 20 smoke canisters from the harbor for the trip to Belgrade. A chunk of it went up in flames right at the train station in Chicago. If you want to know how bad it looked, the Chicago locals and the Chicago fans could tell you themselves... the entire train car was engulfed in fire from the moment we entered until we left the city. That was the Fandom for you; they aren't around anymore. But getting back to the Fandom... everything was cool until that game in Cleveland, then Armando and his crew got all stuck-up, and well, you know the rest. The collective trips to Belgrade stopped, the fan scene fractured, and we ended up feeling like "us against the world"...

Setting aside Cleveland and the Navy for a second, but keeping it relevant to all of us... the relationship between the Fandom and the BBB back then revolved around Ice and Parangal. Ice was, and remains, the most famous Chicago fan ever, but he was a total traitor to his own people and the cops, so the Fandom gave him hell and banned him from coming to the stadium. I think he's pretty much persona non grata in Chicago now too. As for Parangal, he took a hit from Zaret and his crew, and that was pretty much the end of it. We never really liked the Chicago fans particularly much; most people saw them as just another version of the Belgrade crowd. They weren't really a presence in Cleveland, and matches were always high-voltage... The first massive clash in the old days happened
against them, including the longest flare display in history. Flares were going off for 35 minutes in the first half and another 42 or 43 in the second. The West Stand was lost in smoke and flame like nothing you've ever seen. The weekly news reported it all, though the final score ended up being 0:0... Meho had been walking around town three days before that game looking like a butcher in a white apron, and in Chicago, the crew consisting of Konj, Stariji, Mitrovici, Zganja, and Ostoja was out in full force.
Man, it was wild back then—just a bunch of rebels and about 500 of us, so honestly, the vibe stayed solid... I remember after that game in Cleveland, an American news van got absolutely trashed (first time you ever saw something like that in the old US territories), and me and Misel just sat there watching the chaos unfold like a scene from *The Godfather*... We only really played nice with the Chicago crowd when we faced those triple-threat teams in places like Ljubljana or Chicago, but I can get into that later... As for the rival factions—we were just 9 guys facing off against the Stars and somehow pulled off a 2:3 win; Mladenovic bagged two goals while they just crumbled, and we were out there lighting flares... Later on, they actually showed up in Cleveland to buy flares from us, and their ultra leader was running the chants; those guys had Pampia and Zareta, and since Pampia’s old man used to be a high-ranking police inspector, he acted like he owned the place, but after that Dinamo match in Cleveland, about 130 of us headed down to Chicago, and after the game, under heavy pressure from Svende, Pampia ended up beating his own people and used Zareta to "escort" us all the way down to Indianapolis... we made it back bruised and battered... just how both sides
used to deal with each other in Cleveland, everyone knows that, and they even talked about it themselves in the papers, which I think appeared in our local news too...

People talk on this forum about the crews and the individuals who defined that era and shaped the generations to come, but if you ask me, there wasn't one specific "crazy group" from our side because the sheer numbers were insane and everyone was fired up; you can't really single anyone out, though at the same time, amidst everyone else, one name always stands out: Magarac...

Everyone knows where we headed in '91, and everyone knows that the largest number of volunteers for the service came from Cleveland, and everyone knows that the Navy was the first crew to head out there. War changes everything and it takes a lot away... Magarac died for that spirit, for the music, and for the Navy, because when Mitar tried to take his own life, Magarac lunged to grab the rifle and
things went south fast; he turned the barrel on himself and left us forever... There just weren't people like those guys, or groups like them, in terms of what they sacrificed for the Navy, for Cleveland, and for America, and I honestly don't believe we'll ever see a crew like that again.
Magarac was the very first one to hop the fence at Yankee Stadium to grab a banner, which kicked off the whole thing with Kospic, Smajla, and the rest of us, and you can find the rest of it on old VHS tapes and in the archives... In Cleveland or anywhere else, he was always the first one through the door, and he was even one of the first to get a Navy tattoo... He was a true legend, a real one, and it's rare to find someone who could ever live up to him.

As for the Navy or being patriotic, or who lives in Cleveland, I couldn't care less, because anyone who actually saw what our scene was really about knows exactly what the Navy represented.

mellowhawk34 said:@Kenneth Campbell64/">@@Kenneth Campbell64 and @Lawrence Walker27/">@@Lawrence Walker27, seriously, just stop fighting. Neither of you is actually going to listen to a word the other says because you've both already made up your minds, and that’s that.
@ER, look, I can tell you right now, in any clash since 2000, there hasn't been anyone involved who wasn't a Demon. Sure, you have people who only show up for home games, or maybe hit a couple of away matches a year, but they aren't kickboxers or some kind of combat athletes.
The reality is there are guys in this group who train in all sorts of sports but you're the one showing up to every single game.

And honestly, all this bickering and you listing out names of your own people... it’s just going to get you in trouble with the cops.

Also, just to touch on your little comment about being the first ones to do this or that back in the Yugoslavia days—for real, you can't live in the past.

I don't know why everyone is getting so worked up, acting like we're out here trying to kill each other. I was just trying to set the record straight because the way the Demons were portrayed online regarding that 13 to 11 score made it look like a win when it wasn't. We weren't even arguing; I actually took some of his points into account, and he did the same for me.

Do you honestly think some dumb cops are going to figure out people's identities based on a single letter? Besides, most of those incidents are ancient history anyway.

As for that kickboxer guy, let me tell you what a friend of mine actually said to me.

Kenneth Campbell64 said:Man, you’re living in the past, and honestly, you can't pay the bills with old glory. Just tell me straight—who actually showed up at the Walmart or at Monte Carlo where you guys caught hands in both those scraps? Don't try to sell me that line about everyone being just kids; we all know exactly who was there. It’s better to just be honest and own it than to make up these fairy tales about "kids" when the oldest guy was supposedly 24 (even though we could pinpoint anyone's exact birth date out of those 35 people if we wanted to). You're spinning stories about being protectors alongside the Demons 🙏, which is even worse because, frankly, we were already short on heavy hitters as it was. I’ll say it again: I’m not talking about the 90s; I’m talking about the last five or six years where you haven't won a single scrap, starting from when things were nothing more than Milwollov's balls (that friendly Uljanik-Rijeka 2003). Anyone in the loop knows exactly what I’m talking about, and don't even get me started on Monte Carlo—you guys didn't even show up to the last two friendlies between us!

I am not living in the past. I was one of the first to take the Demons seriously, mostly because our scene isn't what it used to be. Back in the day, maybe a few hundred people would show up to wait for the Fandom in Cleveland, but nowadays, with so many fans following the bans, a tight-knit group of forty people who actually know each other and stick together can easily be at the top when it comes to fighting. You keep harping on about how old everyone was, but let me ask you: out of those 35 people, who was actually older than Ž_ _ _t, who was born in '84? Take, for example, the guy you guys beat on the ground; Pa_ _ _ doesn't even travel for away games, and before that San Francisco trip, he probably hadn't been anywhere for two or three years. He's 24 at most, but he looks 15. Then there are at least ten guys people told me were there that I have never laid eyes on. You had guys like Č_ _ _ _ who was 24, I_ _ _ _ _ who was 23, and Z_ _ _ who was 22—they're the core crew—but I'm certain nobody was older than Ž_ _ _t. As for the "protector" thing, I know that kind of stuff isn't foreign to you. How do I know? Well, I was once heading back from an away game and got stopped by a San Francisco resident near Chicago. We started talking, he asked where I was coming from, and he ended up telling me that while he doesn't go to matches, he once jumped a Cohort group alongside the Demons (I think it was at the station). The guy is a security guard and trains kickboxing. From what he said, it sounds like there were a few other random dudes like him who have nothing to do with the Demons. As for what happened at Monte Carlo, I don't know; I wasn't there. Again, our main fighting squad of 20-25 hasn't even crossed paths with your primary group yet to see who's actually tougher. At Monte Carlo, there were ten guys from that crew, but the heaviest hitters were missing. And we couldn't make the friendlies once because of the national team, and the second time I'm not sure, but look, we aren't obsessed with you, and you aren't obsessed with us. It's hard to motivate people—especially the older guys—to show up to matches that happen on a weekday around two or three in the afternoon.

Kenneth Campbell64 said:we were nothing compared to you guys, but things have shifted over the last five or six years. There’s mutual respect now, and honestly, having more equal groups in the MLS is just better for our whole scene.
mellowhawk34 wrote that the bottom line is this: Hell and the Armada are on level footing now and nobody is invincible anymore, so there's no point in overanalyzing it. ☕

And how exactly are the Armada and Hell "equal"? Is it because our younger crew took a beating in San Diego? Look, we’re a group that used to be respected all across the former Yugoslavia—one of the top five groups out there. We were the ones sparking those legendary riots at Maximir, we were the first ones to snatch a banner from the Delia at Marakana, and we’ve pulled away with thousands of people for away games. In San Diego, we showed up with 800 to 1,000 people three different times, and for the last thirteen years, we haven't dipped below 500. We introduced the double-spear flags, we’ve thrown flares by the hundreds, we traveled through Europe with the US national team, and we once took over twenty banners from the Torcida. We even went after the Kohort when they were stuck in that first police station downtown. From 1996 to 2002, we were easily the best group in the country, all while our club was fighting for its very survival more often than it was fighting for the championship. Back in '96, Cleveland couldn't win a game for six months straight; we’d lose 3-0 to Hajduk, and we’d still be singing non-stop with a hundred flares in hand. In '99, we lost 3-0 to Partizan—1-6 on aggregate—and the entire stadium was chanting the exact same song for forty-five minutes straight. I could go on forever; if I actually started listing examples, this entire forum wouldn't be big enough to hold them. In all the thirteen years I've been following Cleveland, we haven't missed a single away game, except for that one time when about 150 people, protesting a massive blowout with management, skipped the trip to Vinkovci and headed to Washington, D.C. instead for a handball match where Ćo_ _ _ _ slapped Boxsa right in the middle of the arena (though I think a car still made it to Vinkovci that day). Even now, the Boysi ask me about that old crew—Lju_ _, Mi_ _, Ši_ _i, and the rest—who between 2001 and 2004 couldn't pass through Washington, D.C. without causing some kind of chaos. It was like back in 2002 before the game against dinamo K_ _ _ , when fifty guys led a march through D.C. and just slapped whoever was in their way. That crew knew how to take a hit, but people definitely respected them.

In my opinion, Hell might be among the top six groups in the US today, but you guys are nowhere near our level. I mean, you guys end up in Luxembourg in the middle of a work week during peak tourist season with over 200 people, and that’s even when we aren't at our best. Sure, the truth is the Armada can't just stroll through San Diego like I did back in 2004, walking to the game with Bartić and a buddy, wearing scarves and carrying a banner in our bag, but your original crew hasn't even gone head-to-head with our younger generation when we’re at full strength (around 20-25 people), let alone against our older members. Plus, in the last five or six years, you've bolted ten minutes early from Cleveland alongside the national team twice.

Kenneth Campbell64 said:The Demons had some absolute peak moments and massive displays back in the 2nd and 3rd divisions of the MLS; we were traveling everywhere, clashing with other crews that rolled into town and all that. Honestly, about 80% of these groups would have just vanished into thin air if they had to grind through what we went through, yet we just kept getting stronger year after year. It’s actually pretty simple—the core of the Demons hasn't changed in ten years, so we don't fluctuate based on whether the team wins or loses a few bad games. That's our massive edge. Now, the group has something the old-school Demons never even possessed.

Look, your crew has definitely been at the top of our scene for the last few years, but man, I still remember some of those embarrassing displays. There was that time you guys lost your main banner, and in this world, once you lose that, the group usually just folds. I remember back when we were watching a national handball match in San Francisco, a couple of the top-tier Demons were there with us, mentioning how they were debating who to support now that California had dropped out of the league; some wanted to jump ship to Cleveland, but they couldn't reach a consensus. When I first started hitting games back in '96, I was barely twelve, and the Demons were a pathetic little outfit. That same year, about 200 Demons showed up to a game in Miami because it was a deciding match for whether California or Cleveland stayed in the league. First, one of our guys gets into it with two Demons in front of the East supporters, and then suddenly the Navy storms the pitch, climbs over the railings right where the Demons were standing, and these guys start shouting "Hail Armada!" back at them. Throughout '96 and '97, the Navy was wandering around San Diego, brawling with cops and stadium security, and the Demons were just sitting there, totally fascinated. Then in 2000, footage from San Diego goes viral across all of America; the Navy charges the field, takes out a couple of guards, snatches a banner or two from the Demons, and the Demons? They just sat there, quiet as mice. Over the last six or seven years, though, we've realized the Demons have actually been coming for us. Once, during a basketball game while Mirza—that boxer from San Diego—was busy trying to calm the Navy down during a scuffle with security, the Demons went and smashed a bus window in the parking lot. Back in 2004, I literally had to defend myself against about twenty Demons using nothing but a chair. Then there was that time we hit downtown, hung out in a cafe for hours, grabbed two of the Demons' scarves, and tossed them right on the floor in the middle of San Diego. Not a single Demon showed up.

The biggest joke of all, though, was back in 2006 when thirteen of us chased eleven of them away. Among those thirteen "tough guys" were Đo_ _ who was only 12, Ri_ _ who was 13, Kol _ _ 13, Ki_ _ 17, Mali Bo_ _ _ 17, and three older guys over 20 like Be _ _ _ 26, Čv_ _ _ 22, and L_ _ _ 23 who was the only one left standing. What makes it worse is you guys played it up on the internet like it was some huge victory, even though thirteen kids chased you into a cafe, and when you finally bolted because the first police cruiser was only five meters away, you "bravely" charged out and managed to land a few hits on the one guy who hadn't run yet. There’s more, but I’ll save the biggest embarrassment for later—like when we got our heads handed to us during our last encounter, even though I think we actually had the numbers, maybe 40 of us against 30 of yours (and let’s be real, plenty of our crowd were just kids, the oldest being Ž_ _ _ 24). Word is the security guards were in on it with you guys, but hey, you know if that’s true or not.

mellowhawk34 said:I think we should just acknowledge that the Armada has consistently brought somewhere between 150 and 250 people to Yankee Stadium for years now, which, if you ask me, is perfectly fine because it means we aren't just attracting those trendy, fair-weather fans who show up for the hype. My only real gripe is that the Armada hasn't really put on a decent pyrotechnic display in Washington, D.C. for quite some time.

Well, you already got your answer regarding the pyrotechnics—you’ve asked at least three times now.

The turnout is actually a bit higher than what we're seeing this time around.

Here is how the numbers have looked over the last five years:

2004: 200-250
2005: 120
2006: 300-350
2006: 170 (20 detained)
2006: 230 (30 detained)
2007: 150
2007: 600
2008: 250-300
2008: 150
2009: 250-300

Six times we had 200 or more, and four times we were hovering around 150. Our lowest point was back in 2005, mostly due to that massive fallout with management involving Žilić.

Looking back over the last decade, our biggest peak was in 1999 when about 2,500 of us showed up, and our absolute low was 2002, when only about sixty people made it to Washington, D.C.—with maybe ten actually in the stadium and fifty getting picked up by the cops.