Posts by Mark Torres14

ironmarlin1 said:However, I wouldn't go so far as to say science itself becomes subjective; it only shifts into that territory if we decide that our value judgments are also subjective.

I suspect that objective value judgments simply don't exist. The very concept of a "judgment" is, at its core, something only applicable to a self-aware being capable of reflecting on itself and its surroundings. The "self" is the bedrock upon which all judgment is built. Even if we were to encounter some other form of alien intelligence, I doubt they would possess any form of "objective" values either. Ultimately, claiming that objective values exist is essentially an argument for the existence of God, provided we define God as something existing entirely outside and above human consciousness.

That logic only holds water if we insist on drawing a hard line between values and facts. But honestly, why should we be forced to accept such a rigid dichotomy in the first place?

Look, David, I think I was pretty clear. When I talk about "judgment," I mean it doesn't exist outside of a human being. My starting point is simple: "Man is the measure of all things."
But within how we perceive those judgments, there are objective values based on empiricism and things you can actually verify. Basically, an objective reality exists independently of us, but an objective "judgment" about that reality can only be made by a person.

That only implies the existence of God if we force a split between values and facts. Why even accept that division?

Because facts are meaningless without some kind of value attached to them. There is no dichotomy—if there were, then "God would be the measure of all things." Facts and values are one and the same. And in my view, the human being is the starting point that provides subjectivity to that "one."

ironmarlin1 said:But we aren't talking about some physical entity you can drop on your foot like a brick or point to on a map within the spacetime continuum. If it isn't a tangible thing, then where exactly is this supposed to reside, and if it lacks a physical footprint, why shouldn't we assume that objective value judgments don't exist either?

It exists in a "limbo" of possibility. Think quantum mechanics. Meaning—subjectivity—only kicks in once a human perceives it. I don't believe objective value judgments exist. Period. The whole concept of a "judgment" basically requires a conscious being aware of itself and its surroundings. The "self" is the foundation for making any judgment at all. Even if we run into another intelligence out there, I still don't think they'd have "objective" values. Essentially, claiming objective values exist implies the existence of God, if you define God as something sitting above and outside human consciousness.

ironmarlin1 said:Which leads us down a rabbit hole: does the equator actually exist in any meaningful sense if there isn't a subject there to witness it?

I’ll leave you all to it for now. It’s a full moon night here in San Diego, and I’m off to go live my life.😁

I might just show up there tomorrow myself (finally 🙏).

It exists.

ironmarlin1 said:Does man serve as the metric for the value of pi? Or is that constant just sitting there, perfectly indifferent to our existence?

But let's circle back to what we were discussing. What’s your take on the way the cave allegory and my own reasoning hold up? Do you truly believe Christianity is the root of all evil?

If you ask me, any religion carries the potential for darkness. Sure, religions have their moments of genuine good, but when you drop them into environments steeped in ignorance, you almost inevitably see a twisted, malevolent shadow emerge. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that the most wicked versions of faith are simply the result of taking the messages found in "holy" books to their most literal, unyielding conclusion. If you consider the Old Testament de facto to be a manual for genocide, then a book containing those instructions is inherently evil. It’s an objective reality! 😁

Pi is an object, just like the equator. It only becomes a subject once a human mind actually perceives it.

I'm out of here. It's a full moon night in San Diego and I'm going out to live my life.😁

ironmarlin1 said:I suppose there is a certain amount of truth to it, though I wouldn't exactly bank on it being a heavy-hitting argument that can carry much weight in a serious debate. Even so, that particular maxim tends to leave quite a few pressing questions hanging in mid-air, unanswered.

I disagree. It’s one of the strongest arguments out there—clean, logical, and precise. It doesn't leave questions hanging because it establishes a clear starting point: the human being. The Old Testament is over 2,000 years old, and I still find it incredibly useful for making my case.
But let's get back to basics. What’s your take on the points made by me and Caveman? Do you honestly think Christianity is where all evil comes from?

ironmarlin1 said:I'm having a bit of a hard time grasping what you mean by subjectivity being realized through human perception. Could you walk me through that? If you're suggesting the equator exists as an object entirely independent of us, what kind of object are we actually talking about?

Good grief, ironmarlin1. "Man is the measure of all things." Or do you disagree?

ironmarlin1 said:I mean, does an equator even exist if there isn't a single human being there to measure it? Are our judgments about the equator objective truths, or are they just subjective interpretations forced upon the landscape? ☕

The equator exists regardless of us, but it only gains subjectivity once a human mind perceives it. Until then, it's just an object.
It’s no coincidence that Heidegger equated history—human history—with battle.