Senna vs. Prost at Suzuka '90

Stop painting Balestre as some kind of villain. He was actually a quite likable individual, and the drivers held him in high regard—even Ayrton Senna himself!

It is true he was close friends with Lewis Hamilton, but that doesn't change the fact that his leadership was perfectly fine.

And let’s not go rewriting history here. In '89, Senna shouldn't have been pushed by the officials, so stripping him of the win was technically legitimate. However, one has to wonder why they didn't just pull the black flag right then and there on the track. Why wait until after the race? It also raises the question of why nobody else was penalized for similar moves in the past when it certainly happened before.

And here is what Ayrton Senna had to say regarding that opening lap. I just watched this clip for the very first time, and it aligns perfectly with my own observations. He had absolutely no intention of making contact.

God, I really am gifted.



It isn't just his word, either—look at how he explains that avoiding the collision was physically impossible.

Still, Jean-Marie Balestre did a fine job by deciding to penalize an innocent man based solely on media statements.

mellowtiger83 said:So now you're wondering why there wasn't a penalty?! What penalty? For what, exactly?
You think Havel wouldn't have handed out a penalty if he could have? He just didn't have any grounds to do it.

Stop lying to yourself.🤣
Even today, refs can hand out penalties for basically nothing, so imagine how much harder it is when they actually *can't*...

Honestly, I couldn't care less about this endless bickering over Schumacher and Hunt. I don't give a damn who's at fault here or there...

But the idea that you need a "valid reason" to slap someone with a penalty actually had me laughing my head off. 🙏🤣
Look at Piquet and Villeneuve—Villeneuve got dinged recently just because two Ferraris sandwiched him. He was innocent as hell and did nothing wrong...
The only thing Villeneuve is guilty of in that mess is having a bad reputation, and that's about it.

stormybadger8 said:You’re living in a total fantasy land.🤣
Even today, a referee could hand out a penalty for absolutely no reason at all, let alone when things get complicated...

Honestly, I couldn't care less about these endless debates over Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost. I don't give a damn who was actually at fault or who wasn't...

But this idea that you need some sort of concrete justification to slap someone with a penalty? That's just laughable. 🙏🤣
Take Pokte, for instance. Sergio Pérez recently got penalized simply because two Ferraris sandwiched him—literally caught in the middle through no fault of his own.
The only thing Sergio Pérez is guilty of in that situation is having a bad reputation, and nothing else...

I don't think it's worth bringing up Jean-Marie Balestre and all that old drama; there isn't much of a connection to what's happening today.

Walter Anderson43 said:You're the only joke here with takes like that.

Senna's own strategy is what turned him into the GOAT—Prostov and Balestre just managed to piss off every driver who actually backed Senna and hated their political games.

Maybe watch a few more documentaries before talking—don't embarrass yourself.

Senna's whole approach is exactly what got him killed at 34.

Being the greatest driver ever doesn't mean much when you're currently six feet under.

ruggedhawk20 said:Senna's approach—it’s what ultimately cost him his life at just 34.

Being recognized as the greatest driver to ever live—even while he's gone—doesn't offer much comfort now.

Right—because Senna's only mistake was having a steering rack failure at Tamburell.

Walter Anderson43 said:yeah, Senna's whole fault was having a steering rack snap at Tamburell

Exactly. Honestly, he had a car capable of second place—he should've just taken it. Instead, he kept messing with the setup—demanding shorter steering racks and whatnot. He basically drove himself off a cliff.

Nelson Piquet, Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, or Jackie Stewart would've been perfectly happy with P2 that day.

And that's why they're still around, while Senna isn't.

ruggedhawk20 said:Exactly. He had a car capable of second place. He should have accepted it. Instead, he kept tinkering with the setup. Demanding changes to the steering rack and all that. He essentially caused his own accident.

Nelson Piquet, Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, or even Jackie Stewart would have been perfectly content with second place that day.

And that is precisely why they are still alive, while Ayrton Senna is not.

That is the very essence of the magic surrounding Ayrton Senna. He was never satisfied with what he achieved, even when he took first place. He constantly pushed harder than the situation required.

Especially during the era of Alain Prost, whom he seemed determined to humble for reasons known only to himself.

Which is quite peculiar, considering the man's religious leanings.

mellowtiger83 said:That’s basically why the whole Senna thing is so magical—he was never satisfied, even when he took the win. He was always pushing way harder than he actually needed to.

Especially back when he was racing against Alain Prost; he seemed hell-bent on just crushing him for reasons only he understood.

Which is pretty wild if you consider his religious side!

Whatever. Just one thing... You guys are basically worshiping a common kamikaze.

Being "better" than Alain Prost doesn't mean anything now. It hasn't made his time in the ground any easier.

ruggedhawk20 said:Fine. Whatever. You’re just glorifying a basic kamikaze driver.

Right now, there isn't any evidence he was actually "better" than Alain Prost. Being a legend doesn't make his struggles in the dirt any easier.

That might be true for you, but for someone like me who believes in God, it means something.

He became an inspiration to so many people, and that kind of thing is priceless.

mellowtiger83 said:Maybe for you—but for someone with actual faith, there’s definitely something to it!

He became an inspiration to so many people, and honestly, you can't put a price tag on that.

Since when does God encourage competition, anyway?

Since when does God reward one person just for being better than someone else?

Aren't we all equal in the eyes of God?

Both Giovanni Lavaggi and Ayrton Senna.

Honestly, if I actually believed in anything, I’d say God basically punished Senna for his own ego. It’s just like back in Monaco in '88—he wasn't just trying to beat Alain Prost, he was trying to humiliate him. So, God decided to slam him into the barrier instead.

By '94, Senna couldn't handle the fact that Michael Schumacher was simply faster, so he started throwing out those fake accusations about illegal TC usage. And once again, God sent him straight into the wall. A much harder hit this time, though.

See? You can look at it from a religious angle too if you want.

mellowtiger83 said:I don't think you get the whole Balestre and pricing thing; there isn't much connection to today's story.

Well, obviously you don't get it... because I honestly couldn't care less about Balestre, Prost, or Senna.
But I really don't get how you can wrap your head around this story when someone who loved Prost but hated Senna wouldn't have penalized Senna just because they lacked "grounds." 🙂

Look, if he wanted to penalize him, he would have, and that’s it—end of story. No one could do anything about it.
What "grounds" for a penalty? What nonsense? Who was he supposed to justify it to???
To you? To Senna? To who, exactly?

And honestly, it would have been way easier back then than it is now. Today, the media pressure is insane. You have footage of every single crash or move from a million different angles. You have every possible piece of evidence proving who's at fault, yet they still manage to penalize drivers who did nothing wrong, or fail to penalize someone when it's obvious from a satellite view that they messed up.

Back then, it wasn't even possible to argue. The media and fans barely had any decent information; it was all just "I think" and pure speculation.
The judge hands out the penalty and that's that. You can cry about it and complain to the water department all you want, but you're still getting the penalty. ☕

stormybadger8 said:Obviously I don't get it... because frankly, I couldn't care less about Jean Balestre, Alain Prost, or Ayrton Senna...
But I really don't grasp your logic—how can someone who adored Alain Prost somehow hate Ayrton Senna? He didn't penalize Ayrton Senna just because he lacked "grounds" for it. 🙂

Look, if he had wanted to hand out a penalty, he would have, and that would be the end of the story. No one could have done anything about it...
What "grounds" for a penalty are we even talking about? Who was he supposed to justify himself to??
To you, to Ayrton Senna, or specifically to whom?

And honestly, it would have been much simpler back then than it is today. Nowadays, the media pressure is massive. You have footage of every single collision or move from a million different angles. You have every possible piece of evidence to prove who is at fault, yet they still manage to penalize a driver who did nothing wrong, or fail to penalize someone when it's obvious from a satellite view that they're guilty...

How could they not have acted back then, when the media and fans barely had access to decent information? It was all just "I think this" or pure speculation...
The official hands down a penalty and that’s that. You can cry about it and complain to the water department all you want, but you're getting the penalty...☕

I'm not entirely convinced anyone would have dared to penalize Ayrton Senna without cause, especially considering his popularity back then. His charisma was twice what Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel have combined.

The whole world would have been up in arms, particularly given everything that had happened in the years leading up to it.

Plus, you've missed the entire point. NASCAR back then wasn't even remotely similar to how things are now, where every little mistake gets a penalty.

I understand what you're trying to say, but you've lost your way in time and space.

You can't just arbitrarily penalize a driver who possessed more charisma than everyone else put together. Things functioned differently then. Ayrton Senna would hold a press conference where everyone listened only to him, and challenging that would have been a direct shot to the heart of the entire leadership.

Maybe if Superman organized this shortcut...

stormybadger8 said:Perhaps if the spirit of Sennin organized the pit stops...

Back in 1990, he still had some physical shape left.😁