Melbourne Grand Prix - March 17, 2019

stormybadger8 said:Why does anyone consider this psychological manipulation or a lack of character?

For heaven's sake, someone hands you 5, 10, or 20 million dollars to drive 21 races a year in the best car on the grid...
On top of that, they expect you to play second fiddle to a teammate who is faster or better than you about 70% of the time...

And that’s considered messing with your head?
Really?
I fail to see the issue here. 🤷

Messing with your head would be something like what Sauber does—promising you a seat if you just bring in enough sponsors, you do all the work, show up to Australia, and find some other guy sitting in "your" car wearing "your" suit...
That is messing with your head, not this...

What Red Bull has been doing for years with Gasly could arguably also be called messing with his head; being in, then out, then back in, and so on...

And I am fairly certain that both van der Graditi and Gasly would gladly accept being played by Mercedes if it meant getting that deal. 🙂

Messing with your head? Nonsense!

I’d take a raw deal for 20 million, no question.🎉

James Roberts87 said:You must be married.😁😁

I’ve got more experience with this than most people here have years on their birth certificates. It's not even close. 😁

Regarding Australia...
Footage of the Vettel vs Leclerc situation and their contact.
https://streamable.com/o/r85cw#?secret=uCOCT4plhS

Whoa, look at that, there was actually contact between Vettel and Leclerc!!!
Honestly, this could have easily ended with a blown tire for Vettel and a wrecked front wing for Leclerc!

For those who don't believe me, you can clearly see here that Vettel was definitely braking hard and locking up, and he pretty much lost control of the car...
Because right before the contact, you can totally see his rear end dancing around...
If he had gone deeper like some people suggested, or if he hadn't braked, the chances of him spinning out would've been about 99%...

Second thing—Vettel was following the exact same line as Bottas/Hamilton... maybe even staying further off the curbs than Hamilton/Bottas did.

Third thing—huge surprise for me personally!
Max was incredibly cautious and careful; you have to hand it to him, he acted maturely without being aggressive, which isn't like him at all.
He obviously realized he’d lost ground to Vettel and even Leclerc, and he didn't try to force his way back at all.
Instead, you see this serious approach where he's basically thinking, "Okay, I messed up the first round, let's just nail this corner without crashing (at least not my own car) and then I'll squeeze them."
With an attitude like this, he could be seriously competitive and a real threat in the title hunt this season. 😳

Fourth thing—I still have no clue what kid Leclerc is and why he was lunging in like that. 🤦
He was forcing it right next to Vettel, aiming straight for him the whole time, and didn't back off for a second; he just kept crowding Vettel. 😵

Click the image to see it in higher resolution...

And that's even though it's obvious from the aerial view that he had zero chance of getting ahead of Vettel, unless Vettel decided to brake like an idiot and let him through...

The dumbest part is the kid actually had plenty of room to just ease off and slip in ahead of Max. Max gave him the space to make the move. 😲
Max was clearly being careful and didn't want to risk a collision, so he left the gap for Leclerc to slide in front of him!







So much for the idea that Leclerc couldn't get past Max and it was somehow Vettel's fault...

I can hardly believe it, but in this whole mess, Max is actually the smartest and calmest one out there. 😲

stormybadger8 said:Why does anyone think this is anything other than total brainwashing and zero backbone?

I mean, seriously. Someone hands you 5, 10, or 20 million dollars to drive 21 races a year in the fastest car on the grid...
On top of that, they expect you to play second fiddle to a teammate who's faster than you at least 70% of the time...

There's your answer. (Even if the question was rhetorical). Thanks.

mellowtiger83 said:Brainwashing? Total nonsense!

I’d take that deal for 20 million, honestly.🎉

Well, if you wouldn't do it for less than 20, then you've actually got some integrity. 🙏

Roger Wright94 said:If you wouldn't do it for under 20, then you actually have some backbone. 🙏

Honestly, brainwashing should be the thing with the massive price tag—not anal. Brainwashing absolutely trashes your mental health, whereas anal? Zero negative consequences—actually, there are benefits. It’s loaded with nerve endings and, basically, feels great if the guy knows what he's doing. The only issue with anal is those weird social norms where people call you a fairy. With brainwashing, though, there's zero upside. Aside from the fact that nobody's gonna label you a queer. So if someone's really worried about labels, they should just suck up the brainwashing.

stormybadger8 said:Why does everyone think this is mental manipulation and just being spineless?

Look, give me a break. Someone hands you $5, $10, or even $20 million to drive 21 races a year in the best car on the grid...
On top of that, they expect you to play second fiddle to a teammate who’s faster than you at least 70% of the time...

And people call *that* mental manipulation?
Seriously?
I don't see the problem here. 🤷

Real mental manipulation would be something like what Sauber does—promising you a seat if you bring enough sponsors, you pull it off, show up in Australia, and find some other guy sitting in "your" car wearing "your" suit...
That's playing with someone's head, not this...

What Red Bull has been doing to Gasly for years might actually qualify as playing with heads—keeping him in, then dropping him, then bringing him back, just shuffling him around...

And I'm pretty sure both van der Graditi and Gasly would gladly let Mercedes mess with their heads if it meant getting that kind of deal. 🙂

Now, let me talk about actual mental manipulation.
Bottas joined Mercedes in 2017 and had a decent season. He got podiums and wins—more than enough to stay satisfied.
He headed into 2018 with that same mindset and a fair amount of enthusiasm. Then things went south, relatively disgracefully.
a) When you force a driver who is capable of winning and taking championships to stop racing and start just getting in the way of others, that's mental manipulation.
b) When a driver allows himself to be treated that way, then in my opinion, he's just a spineless pushover without any backbone.

Roger Wright94 said:Alright, let's talk about how much of a mind game this actually is.
Bottas joined Mercedes back in 2017 and had a decent enough season. He snagged some podiums and wins—more than enough to keep things interesting.
He rolled into 2018 with that same energy and plenty of hype, too. But then, thanks to a messy string of events, it all went south.
a) when you take a driver who’s actually capable of winning championships and turn him into someone just struggling to stay out of everyone else's way, that's a total mental mess
b) and if a driver just lets himself get played like that? Well, in my opinion, he’s got zero backbone—just a guy with no character at all.

Or maybe he's just playing the long game—knowing the team will make up for 2018 down the road.

And based on what we've seen, that could happen as early as 2019.

See, it’s not even in Mercedes' best interest to have the exact same guy winning every single time. Just look at Rosberg. It was Hamilton twice, then Rosberg once. Then the cycle repeats: Hamilton twice, then... Bottas.

See? Even the math checks out.

ruggedhawk20 said:Or maybe it's just a driver who plays the long game, knowing his crew will eventually make up for everything from 2018

And honestly, based on what we've seen, that could happen as early as 2019

Because even for Mercedes, it’s not really in their interest to have the exact same person winning every single time. You can look at Rosberg to prove that point—it was Hamilton twice, then Rosberg once, and then the cycle repeats. Two wins for Hamilton, one for... Bottas

See? Even the math checks out

That's exactly what I was thinking too...

Roger Wright94 said:Now, let me talk some sense into you people.
Bottas joined Mercedes in 2017 and actually pulled off a decent season. He had podiums and wins—honestly, more than enough to satisfy anyone.
He went into 2018 with that same mindset and a fair amount of enthusiasm. Then, thanks to a series of unfortunate events, things went south.
a) when you take a driver who can actually win championships and force him to spend his time messing around and getting in other people's way instead of driving, that's just plain stupidity.
b) when a driver lets himself be treated like a complete idiot, then in my opinion, he’s just a spineless pushover with zero backbone.

You're ignoring the bold part...
Bottas didn't earn that seat through pure merit or driving skill. Not even close.
The only reason he landed a ride in a dominant car with the best crew was because Nico Rosberg unexpectedly walked away, combined with his connection to Toto and the business ties between Mercedes and Williams. Otherwise, there's no way he ever gets that seat.

ruggedhawk20 said:Or maybe he's just a long-term thinker who knows the team will eventually pay him back for 2018.

And judging by what we saw, that could happen as early as 2019.

Because it's not in Mercedes' interest to have the exact same person winning every single time. Look at Rosberg as proof. Twice it was Hamilton, once it was Rosberg. Then the cycle repeats. Two times Hamilton, one time... Bottas.

See? Even the math checks out.

Exactly.
And it's highly likely Bottas was promised this during his first contract signing. They probably laid out every tiny detail of what he can and can't do... when he should step up and when he shouldn't.
Then they basically told him, "take it or leave it."

So there's no sudden realization or surprise here. Bottas knew exactly what he was getting into and what to expect.
That's why I don't buy the "being played" excuse—he knew the deal from the start and had the option to walk away.

If anyone got played by Mercedes, it was Rosberg.
Nobody told him exactly how he'd be handled in relation to Hamilton before he signed, since he was already there well before Hamilton arrived.

stormybadger8 said:You're ignoring the bold text here...
Valtteri Bottas didn't really earn it through his driving or his pure talent, let's be honest.
The only reason he secured a seat in such a dominant car with a top-tier crew was because of Nico Rosberg's unexpected departure and his connections with Toto, combined with the business ties between Mercedes-Benz and Williams Racing. Otherwise, there is absolutely no way he would have ever gotten that seat...

Exactly.
It’s highly likely this was even promised to Valtteri Bottas when he signed his first contract; they probably explained every single detail—exactly what he can and cannot do, and when he needs to step aside...
Then they essentially told him, "take it or leave it."

So, there's no sudden realization or surprise involved; Bottas knew exactly what he was getting into and what to expect.
Because of that, you can't really call it being "played," since he knew the deal from the start and had the option to decline...

If anyone could say they were being played by Mercedes-Benz, it would be Rosberg.
Nobody could have told him for certain how he would be positioned alongside Lewis Hamilton before he signed his contract, especially since he had been with the team quite a while before Lewis arrived...

True, but Lewis Hamilton was already the MVP back then, whereas Rosberg wasn't... 🙂

ruggedhawk20 said:Maybe it’s just a driver who looks at the long game, knowing his team will eventually make up for 2018.
Based on what we've seen, that could be as soon as 2019.
It isn't in Mercedes-Benz's interest to have the exact same person winning every single time. Look at Rosberg as proof. Twice Lewis Hamilton, once Rosberg. Then the cycle repeats. Twice Lewis Hamilton, once... Valtteri Bottas.

A-ha, so that's the master plan.
To me, it sounds like a total fairy tale—reckless, even.
What do you think the "Lewis Hamilton till the end" crowd would say to that?

Losing to Ferrari? Fine. But losing to Valtteri Bottas...? That's a hard no from me.
And that's exactly why it won't happen. Not by accident, either.
If you're going to paint someone as a savior, the image has to stay bright and sunny. You can't make the guy look worse.
Anything else would be a disaster. Bigger than the US Withdrawal. The United Kingdom would practically drown in a sea of tears.

One win doesn't make it spring. Especially not after a non-representative race in Australia. I don't see any signs that Lewis Hamilton's driving skills are fading, and frankly, neither is his ambition. If anything, all that off-track activity seems to be helping his performance.

It’s actually a great spot for Mercedes-Benz to be in, having Valtteri Bottas hungry to race and win.
Where this all leads, we'll just have to wait and see in the upcoming races.

Richard Ross11 said:Yeah, but Lewis Hamilton was already an MVP back then—Rosberg definitely wasn't. 🙂

We had Michael Schumacher winning MVPs and then seven in a row—so naturally, they just let them run over Nico Rosberg whenever they felt like it.

Not only was Michael Schumacher a 7-time MVP—he was basically the golden boy and favorite protégé at Mercedes-Benz back in the late 80s and early 90s.

Roger Wright94 said:Oh, so that's the play.
Honestly, it sounds like some utopian pipe dream—like trying to run a business without a manager.
What do you think the "Lewis till the end" cult would say to that?

Losing to Ferrari? Fine. But losing to Valtteri Bottas...?!? That’s a hard NO.
And that's exactly why it won't happen. Not a chance.
If they want to build a messiah, the image has to be brighter and more glorious, not darker—the guy and his legacy have to be bigger and better.
Anything else would be a total disaster. Bigger than the US Withdrawal. The UK would basically drown in an ocean of tears.

Mercedes doesn't give a damn about Lewis Hamilton or the UK. I mean, Lewis is leaving Mercedes soon anyway. And Mercedes isn't about to tie their entire success to just one driver—that just devalues them. It's way more important for Mercedes to be able to tell the world, "Look how dominant this car is; we won titles with Lewis, Rosberg, and even Valtteri Bottas. It's just that dominant."

Mercedes definitely won't let themselves get put in a spot where Lewis Hamilton can look them in the eye and say, "Without me, you wouldn't have any titles at all."

Mercedes learned their lesson from Ferrari and Michael Schumacher—they aren't about to put all their eggs in one basket.

ruggedhawk20 said:Mercedes couldn't care less about Lewis Hamilton or the United Kingdom. Besides, Lewis is going to leave Mercedes soon anyway. Mercedes doesn't want their entire success tied to just one driver; that would be a massive liability for them. It’s much more important for Mercedes to be able to tell the world, "Look how dominant our car is—it won titles with Hamilton, Rosberg, and even Valtteri Bottas. The machine is just that good."

Mercedes isn't about to let Hamilton get to a point where he can look them in the eye and say, "If it wasn't for me, you wouldn't have any titles at all."

They learned their lesson watching Ferrari and Michael Schumacher. They aren't about to make the mistake of putting all their eggs in one basket.

Like!

ruggedhawk20 said:Mercedes-Benz definitely won't let themselves get into a spot where Lewis Hamilton can tell them, "If I walk, you lose all your championships."

Amen to that!
Though the real question is how many titles Lewis Hamilton would actually have if he hadn't jumped ship to Mercedes-Benz.

fadedpanther51 said:Amen to that!
Though the real question is how many titles Lewis Hamilton would've actually bagged if he hadn't jumped ship to Mercedes-Benz.

Just one—that 2008 win.

In this turbo era from 2014 onwards, nobody besides Mercedes-Benz had a car capable of winning championships. Nobody. Not even Ferrari 2017—regardless of what Vettel haters claim.

ruggedhawk20 said:Just one, back in 2008.

In this high-tech era from 2014 onwards, nobody besides Mercedes-Benz had a car capable of winning titles. Absolutely nobody. Not even Ferrari 2017-2018, regardless of what Vettel haters claim.

Signature 🙏

Honestly, in some alternate universe, Ferrari might have actually won last season if they’d had Lewis Hamilton behind the wheel instead of Sebastian Vettel.

ruggedhawk20 said:He was a 7-time MVP, so they basically let Nico Rosberg run him ragged whenever they felt like it.

Not only was Michael Schumacher a 7-time MVP, but he was also the absolute golden boy and protégé of Mercedes back in the late 80s and early 90s...

Yes, I completely overlooked Michael Schumacher in that particular context...
Though I honestly believe he could have achieved even more if things had aligned just a bit differently...
If only they hadn't penalized him back then in Monaco, right after he secured pole position...