History Forum - Zoran Ostric - Bad Choice for Moderator, Vol. V

Good afternoon,

The preferred outcome of this appeal would be some form of actual reaction. I am unsure if Uncle Strile is simply absent from the forum, or if this silence should be interpreted as an answer in itself.

In the meantime, lonetrucker4 continues with his ideological insults: Repeatedly violating thread rules (denying the victims of the regime) and handing out red cards whenever I correct him despite his total ignorance of the subject:

He has no grasp of how the camps were organized. He fails to distinguish between Camp III and III C. He is clueless regarding the official timeline of the Rom deaths—and I am referring to the OFFICIAL records, not "revisionists." He doesn't even know the name Milka Riffer correctly (he calls her Rifter), yet he cites her. He is unaware that the Rom people were killed at the fortress without ever entering the camp. In truth, Ostric knows almost nothing about the camp system, which becomes obvious the moment he attempts to discuss specifics.

When someone—in this case, myself—points out elementary factual errors, he retreats behind a red card and resorts to standard insults and platitudes: "denying the victims of the regime."

I used to think Ostric actually believed such labels applied to those with differing views, but it is now clear that he calculatedly uses the easiest tool available to "deal with" dissenters: label them a fascist and issue a ban.

So, here I am, someone who isn't denying anything, being banned for "denial." Meanwhile, he ignores the fact that his ideological twin denies in the very next post that Ante Ciliga was even in the camp!

I have already stated that Ostric's moderation style imposes a verbal "mud fight," turning this sub-forum into an ideological swamp. It is exhausting and demeaning to participate in something like this. There are plenty of users who can and want to engage in discussion based on arguments rather than emotion; why aren't they allowed to do so?
I don't believe I am asking much from the super-moderators or administration when I ask for a response. Quite simply, Ostric is a poor choice for a moderator.

Best regards,
Nathan Richardson2

Honestly, we should probably just merge every thread where I'm mentioned in the title to stop cluttering up this subforum. It’s all the same repetitive stuff anyway, especially regarding those two rules in that History PDF. I just brought it up yesterday..

Nathan Richardson2 said:lonetrucker4 is back at it again with the ideological insults: Breaking the rules again—denying the victims of that regime. Same old story.

Maybe you feel personally attacked because they won't let you deny the victims of that fascist regime. Look, I'm not getting into your headspace—you're entitled to your own feelings—but those are just the rules.

He can't even tell the difference between Camp III and Camp II C.

The confusion was always about distinguishing between "Camp III C" and that specific, separate section called the "appendix," according to Riffer. (Camp III is the brickyard—basically what most people picture when they talk about the Jasenovac camp, even though that whole thing is just one massive collection of camps.)

He hasn't even got a clue when the official record says the Romani people actually suffered.

Look, I’m talking about that actual scientific study from 2015—the one packed with a mountain of documents that nobody had even seen before. You just keep brushing it off. I pointed out that according to that research, the order to round up all the Romani people and ship them off to Jasenovac went out on May 19, 1942. It was all carried out in about twenty days, and within a few months, most of them were gone. The data from the itemized list of victims lines up perfectly with that.

He doesn't even get the name right—he keeps calling him Rifter when he's actually talking about Milka Riffer.

That’s just a typo. I wasn't even the one to bring him up—you mentioned him first, and then Kiseli1 started quoting his book, "Dead City."

He’s got no clue they were being wiped out at the fortress before they even stepped foot in the camp.

So, Riffer, along with all the other witnesses and the actual paperwork, is just lying in your book? Real convenient. Riffer was writing... How does Kiseli1 cite him?The Roma were shoved into that "Roma camp," basically just an appendix—a little blind spot tucked inside Camp III C. Honestly, you'd have to cut that thing out immediately just to give the dying organism that was Camp III C a fighting chance at staying alive.

He’s totally ignoring the fact that his ideological twin just flat-out denies Ante Ciliga was ever even in the camp in the very next post!

Kiseli1—who you call my "ideological twin" (since we both take a realistic look at the crimes of the fascist regime and back it up with scholarly sources)—was in one post quoting a historical text ("Who is Who in the WWII era") which mentions Ciliga spent a short stint in the Jasenovac camp after being arrested late in 1941 and released in January 1942. The mass deportations of the Romani people didn't kick off until late May and June of 1942, so Ciliga isn't some witness to their fate.

Then, in that same breath, Kiseli1 quotes a German intelligence document and concludes, "no mention of his stay in Jasenovac." That's a completely different game than the one you're playing.

I already broke down how the user Nathan Richardson2 handles the subject of the Jasenovac camp group victims in two separate posts over on the "itemized list of victims" thread #11o and #111.

The administration hands everything over to Strile, Strile ignores everything, and lonetrucker4 is becoming increasingly extreme.
Our esteemed "expert debater" handed me two penalties and 300 "reward" points just because he felt insulted when I corrected his inaccurate claims. Let’s go through this step by step.

lonetrucker4 said:Nathan Richardson2 demonstrated his usual methodology here, completely ignoring objective truth just to stir up emotions for ideological reasons. In short: this whole "14,000 clones" thing is made up; they just drummed up hysteria because apparently, you aren't allowed to mention victims if the data on them isn't complete.

I received a penalty worth 200 points—expiring in six months—for a message in which I corrected this false claim.

I have told lonetrucker4 multiple times that the "14,000 clones" refers to duplicated SQL return records. This means certain victims appeared on the list twice or more. It isn't a matter of "not having complete data" on them. It simply means an entire table row was copied, regardless of whether the specific data for that individual was complete or not. At the Jasenovac museum, they explained this scandal as a programming error, whereas right-wingers view it as a conspiracy or data manipulation. These are your standard American political divides, but the only thing actually subject to interpretation is how the cloning error occurred. From my perspective, the point of the discussion is that nobody (except lonetrucker4) denied the scandal happened. Slavko, Ivo Goldstein, the former director, the current director, and even the programmer from the firm Utilis who built the site have all weighed in, and no one denied the occurrence. Furthermore, no one defined the "clones" as anything other than cloned SQL return records.

The only person on the face of the earth claiming that these "clones" are actually victims about whom "complete data is unknown" is lonettrucker4. If lonettrucker4 were six years old instead of sixty, his behavior might be excused as a simple misunderstanding of what was written; however, it is clear that lonettrucker4 is intentionally spreading falsehoods. He then uses those lies as justification for handing out penalties.
I explained this to him quite explicitly several times. And I know he read it, because he penalized the very messages containing this explanation. I have no idea why lonettrucker4 acts like an autist. Why does he deny such a simple fact? And more importantly, I don't know why he is permitted to distribute penalties for things like this. If he doesn't want to believe it happened, that's his problem, and it shouldn't affect the rest of the forum population.

***

I got my second penalty for this:

lonettrucker4 said:Most of them were brought to the brickyard camp and left in a separate fenced area, outdoors, without food, without sanitation... After a few months, almost all of them were dead.

Here, he fails to distinguish between Camp III (the brickyard) and Camp III C (the small field camp, maybe 400 square meters). He seems to think more than 16,000 people can fit into 400 square meters! My attempt to point out his pervasive ignorance cost me a red card and 100 reward points.

He wrote an additional explanation on this thread:

lonetrucker4 said:I am referring to a scientific study published back in 2015, packed with documents, many of which hadn't been seen before. You just stubbornly refuse to acknowledge it. According to that study, the order to round up all the Romani people and send them to Jasenovac was issued on May 19, 1942, executed within about 20 days, and most of them were dead within a few months. An itemized list of victims aligns perfectly with those facts.

I’ve already made my position clear: Ostric is a fraudulent authority. In reality, he’s a complete illiterate when it comes to the Jasenovac camp. Once you strip away the ideology he’s so heavily invested in, it becomes obvious he doesn't understand the physical layout of the camp, hasn't read the memoirs of survivors, and doesn't even grasp how the victims actually perished. The only book he’s ever actually read regarding the camp is Danijel vojak’s last book ( ). It’s quite amusing how he persistently tries to steer me toward that specific book, constantly accusing me of "ignoring" it. He points me there because he knows nothing else. As for ignoring it—well, it's true. I find it somewhat awkward to debate someone whose primary concern is highlighting the positive review given to the book by Zlatko Hasanbegovic, only to then shamelessly lie about its actual content. And then he uses those lies to try and hand out red cards. Honestly, where does it end?

Quote:>

lonetrucker4 says: ...the order to round up all the Romani people and send them to Jasenovac was issued on May 19, 1942, executed within about 20 days...

This is an outright lie. Just blatant, shameless, Ostric-style lying. And whenever I call him out for presenting fabrications instead of actual quotes, he tries to give me red cards. What an utterly shameless individual.
The only issue is that I’ve owned this book for a long time, so he can't pull his little tricks on me.

In the book, on page 33, it says this:

Quote:>

Danijel vojak says: Through a Department of the Interior circular and an order from the Ustaše Surveillance Service, supported by the Directorate for Public Order and Security, as of May 19, 1942, the rounding up of all Romani people in the US was mandated. The Supreme Armored Command issued the following order the next day: "(...) we ask the head command to instruct all regional armed stations to collect all Gypsies in their territory and, in agreement with the relevant district authorities, escort them to Jasenovac (...)" .56

In the following paragraph, on page 34, it says:

Quote:>>

Danijel vojak says: Shortly after that order was issued, mass arrests and removals of Romani people began, most of which were carried out by the end of the summer of that same year.

In the conclusion, on page 58, Vojak writes:

Danijel vojak said:There were organized deportations, and the authorities misled the Romani people with promises that they would be relocated to areas where they could live and work in peace. Instead, their final destination was the Jasenovac camp, where most Romani individuals were brought between late May 1942 and the end of summer that same year, and there they were subjected to torture and execution. According to some accounts, the majority were killed during that specific window, while only a small fraction was spared because they served the camp authorities by carrying out killings and disposing of bodies. However, even they were liquidated in early 1945. Available sources indicate the fact that Romani deportations occurred both before and after the mass deportations in mid-1942, suggesting a certain systematic nature to the government's policy toward them. Some Romani people managed to evade deportation, particularly the sedentary Romani of Muslim faith living in the Canadian regions, whom they referred to as "White Gypsies."

And now this, frankly grotesque moderator is handing out red cards just because I’m correcting a total load of nonsense claiming the Romani were all arrested within twenty days!!! And of course, he seasons it with the usual insults and platitudes about "denying character" or "fascism" and such.

But our seasoned debater isn't finished yet; he insists on this too:

lonetrucker4 said:The data from the itemized list of victims agrees with that.

Ostric knows absolutely nothing about the itemized list of victims. He hasn't spent even five minutes studying that list. Everything he knows is what I’ve already posted here on the forum. That’s why he’s bold enough to throw out such nonsense, claiming the list supports his false assertions. Honestly, my assessment is that he isn't even lying; he's just completely ignorant. It's a pathetic attempt at "shooting in the dark."

***

Since I’m already scanning and using OCR on Vojak (whom Ostric supposedly read), I should mention another interesting detail from the same book. One thing Ostric doesn't know—and because of it, he hands out cards for "character assassination" and "apologist propaganda"—is that only a small portion of the Rom people were actually kept in Camp III. All the women and children, along with the men who weren't sent to work, were taken to the nearby American village of Uštica or directly to the fortress (the site of liquidations):

Page 42, same book:

Danijel vojak said:The second group of Rom was initially placed in the village of Uštica in vacated American homes, but they were soon moved to the nearby American village of Gradina due to their large numbers, where the mass liquidations took place.104

These are the reasons Ostric gave me two cards and 300 points. It would be nice if the supermoderator would just delete those two senseless cards, but more importantly, those moderator cards should be stripped from a man who uses red cards to mask his own ignorance and fabrications. This isn't moderation; it's a circus. This isn't a serious discussion; it's just rolling around in the mud.

***

lonetrucker4 said:Kiseli1, whom you call my "ideological twin" (because we both realistically depict the crimes of the regime and cite professional literature and sources), cited a professional source in one post (the book "who is who in NDH"), which mentions that Ciliga stayed in the Jasenovac camp for a short time, arrested in late 1941 and released in January 1942. The mass arrival of Rom occurred from late May through June 1942, so Ciliga is not a witness to their fate.

Both of you claim to cite "professional literature and sources"!? You are citing a book where you lie about the contents, and he is quoting a lexicon that is so poorly put together it contains incorrect data:

lonetrucker4 said:Ciliga stayed in the Jasenovac camp for a short time, arrested in late 1941 and released in January 1942.

I can't accuse you of lying here, since you are technically quoting that lexicon. But even so, everything is wrong. Ciliga didn't go to Jasenovac in '41, nor did he leave in '42. But fine, let's call this progress. Kiseli1, reading that same lexicon (sic!), claimed Ciliga was in Jasenovac for a year. Later, he even claimed Ciliga invented his stay there entirely. At least you admit he was there for a "short time." Your only commonality is sheer ignorance.

lonetrucker4 said:So, basically, Ciliga isn't some kind of witness to their ultimate fate.

I brought up Ciliga specifically because of his accounts regarding Camp III C—he spent three years stationed there, after all. That was my attempt at educating you, since you seem to possess a total lack of understanding regarding the fundamental terminology used for the camps. But, true to form, the "seasoned rhetorician" here twisted my words until they were nothing more than a caricature. Honestly, I’m starting to wonder why I even bother.

lonetrucker4 said:Following that, in the very same post, Kiseli1 quotes a document from German intelligence and concludes, "no mention of his stay in Jasenovac." That is fundamentally different from what you are doing.

I'm sorry, I didn't quite follow. Was he actually at the Jasenovac camp or not? Once we settle that fact, then we can move on.
We actually find ourselves on the same page here. Kiseli (your ideological twin) and I simply approach this topic from completely different angles. I’ve actually read Ciliga’s book—along with plenty of others—so when I quote a source, I'm quoting actual literature, not some inaccurate encyclopedia. I don't let ideology cloud my judgment, and unlike you, I refuse to stoop to the level of blatantly lying about a book's contents just to then dismiss anyone on this forum who has actually read it and dared to correct your false narrative.

***

I apologize for the length of this post, and I realize I’m probably cluttering up the admin's inbox with details that really belong over in the History subforum. However, I felt it was necessary to be incredibly precise in demonstrating one thing: either Ostric is a blatant liar, or he is completely incapable of having a mature discussion about a book he supposedly even read. In either scenario, we are dealing with what is, without exaggeration, the worst moderator in the history of this forum. A man so consumed by ideological bickering and such a fundamental lack of subject knowledge simply isn't fit for the role.

Let’s go back to square one: the administration is basically handing everything over to Strile, Strile just ignores it all, and Ostric is getting more and more extreme...

But our seasoned debater won't stop there; he insists on this as well:

lonetrucker4 said:The data from the itemized list of victims agrees with that.

Ostric doesn't know a damn thing about the itemized list. He hasn't spent even five minutes studying it. Everything he knows is what I’ve already posted here on the forum. That’s why he’s bold enough to throw out such nonsense, claiming the list aligns with his false assertions. Honestly, my assessment is that he isn't even lying; it's just total ignorance. Just a pathetic attempt at "shooting in the dark."

***

Since I’m already scanning and OCR-ing Vojak (whom Ostric supposedly read), I should mention another interesting detail from the same book. One thing Ostric is clueless about—which leads him to hand out cards for "character assassination" and "apologist propaganda"—is the fact that only a small portion of the Rom people were actually in Camp III. All the women and children, as well as the men who weren't sent to work, were taken to the nearby American town of Uštica or directly to the fortress (the site of executions):

Page 42, the same book:

Danijel vojak said:The second group of Rom was initially placed in the village of Uštica in evacuated American homes, but they were quickly moved to the nearby American village of Gradina due to their large numbers, which was where the mass liquidations took place.104

These are the reasons Ostric gave me two red cards and 300 points. It would be nice if the supermoderator would just delete those two mindless cards, but more importantly, those moderator cards should be stripped from a man who uses red cards to mask his own ignorance and fabrications. This isn't moderation; it's a circus. This isn't a serious discussion; it's just wrestling in the mud.

***

lonetrucker4 said:Kiseli1, who you claim is my "ideological twin" (because we both provide a realistic portrayal of the regime's crimes and cite professional literature and sources), cited a scholarly source in one post (the book "who is who in NDH"), which mentions that Ciliga stayed in the Jasenovac camp for a short time, arrested in late 1941 and released in January 1942. The mass arrival of the Rom people happened from late May through June 1942, so Ciliga isn't a witness to their fate.

Both of you are citing "professional literature and sources"!? You are citing a book where you lie about the content, while he is quoting a lexicon so poorly made that it contains incorrect data:

lonetrucker4 said:Ciliga stayed in the Jasenovac camp for a short time, arrested in late 1941, released in January 1942.

I can't accuse you of lying here, since you are indeed quoting that lexicon. But still, everything is wrong. Ciliga didn't go to Jasenovac in '41, nor did he leave in '42. But fine, I guess this is progress. Kiseli1, reading that very same lexicon (sic!), claimed Ciliga was in Jasenovac for an entire year. Later, he even claimed Ciliga invented his stay there entirely. At least you admit he was there for a "short time." The only thing you two have in common is being clueless.

lonetrucker4 said:... so Ciliga isn't exactly a witness to their fate.

I brought up Ciliga specifically because of his description of Camp III; he spent three years there. That was my attempt at educating you, since you seem to have a total lack of understanding regarding basic camp terminology. But, predictably, the "seasoned debater" twisted it into a caricature. Honestly, I'm starting to wonder why I even bother.

lonetrucker4 said:Later in that same message, Kiseli1 cites a German intelligence document and concludes, "there is no mention of his stay in Jasenovac." That is fundamentally different from what you are doing here.

And? I don't follow. Was he there or wasn't he? Once we settle that fact, we can actually move the conversation forward.
The reality is that we actually agree on the core issue. Kiseli (your ideological twin) and I simply approach the topic from completely different angles. I’ve read Ciliga’s book—along with plenty of others—so I cite actual sources rather than lexicons filled with inaccuracies. I'm not burdened by ideology, and unlike you, I don't stoop to the level of blatantly lying about a book's contents just to then dismiss forum members who have actually read it and corrected your false narrative.

***

My apologies for the length of this post and for cluttering the admin queue with details that belong in the History subforum, but I felt it necessary to demonstrate precisely that Ostric is either a) a liar or b) completely incapable of discussing even a single book he supposedly read. In either scenario, he is quite literally the worst moderator in the history of this forum. A man so obsessed with ideological bickering and so ignorant of the subject matter is simply unfit for the role.

To circle back to the beginning: The administration leaves everything to Strili, Strile ignores it, and Ostric just keeps getting more extreme...

@Nathan Richardson2, I’m not even gonna bother with your circular logic. If you keep playing pretend about the victims of that Nazi regime, expect those penalties to keep coming.

lonetrucker4 said:@Nathan Richardson2, I’m not even going to dignify your endless circling with a comment. If you keep playing denialist regarding the victims of the wartime regime, expect those penalties to keep rolling in.

I've pointed out multiple times that the "moderator" has taken such an unsustainable ideological stance on history that it's getting ridiculous. When they refuse to sanction anyone denying post-WWII atrocities, it just becomes incredibly grating. I've reported posts from Kiseli1 several times for straight-up breaking forum rules, yet nothing happens.
And trust me, I'm not the only one calling this out. link

The mod basically disqualified themselves at this point.
Seriously, this is getting old!

lonetrucker4 said:@Nathan Richardson2, I’m not even going to dignify your circular reasoning with a response.

I called you a liar and a fraud, laid out the evidence step by step, and yet you have nothing to say in your defense. I'll take that silence as an admission of guilt.

Now that you’ve basically admitted to being an extremist with a massive ideological bias, could you find a shred of decency and delete those cards you handed out based on your fabrications?

At this rate, your six-month suspension will expire before Strile ever decides to speak up here.

lonetrucker4 said:If you keep denying the victims of that fascist regime, the penalties will keep coming.

It is painfully obvious you're just setting the stage for a "purge," and blatant lying seems to be your primary way of operating. It's difficult to appeal to the conscience, upbringing, or integrity of an extremist, so I'll direct my attention to a higher authority:

The administration is leaving everything to Strile, Strile is ignoring the issues, lonetrucker4 is spiraling into more extreme territory, and this subforum is turning into a total swamp...

driftingorca16 said:yet we don't see Kiseli1 getting sanctioned for their constant spamming, even though they break more forum rules than anyone else.

Kiseli1, Judolino, Suslov, Schlange86, and a handful of others enjoy blatant favoritism from Ostric. They can derail threads, spread falsehoods, or deny reality itself without consequence. Ostric won't lift a finger as long as it involves leftist extremists—basically his ideological counterparts.

To be clear, nobody should have their speech restricted just because they happen to be a (in this case, leftist) extremist. The issue here is the hypocrisy of an incompetent moderator. He goes looking for dirt on anyone he labels a "fascist"—meaning anyone who isn't a leftist extremist—and when he can't find any, he starts fabricating it. Meanwhile, he grants total freedom of expression to his ideological allies.

driftingorca16 said:This is getting irritating!

Oh, absolutely...

Look, old wise man, trying to have a conversation with you is honestly exhausting. You’re constantly being provocative, coming off as abrasive, and frankly, just rude. Plus, those massive walls of text you post are incredibly draining to get through—you just keep recycling the same grievances over and over again. We simply can't operate this way. I've reviewed the records regarding your strikes, and I don't see any errors in them; there's absolutely no reason for you to show up tomorrow with a sixth "new" version of the exact same complaint. These attempts to force a change in moderators—or whatever else you're aiming for here—aren't going to work because we don't see any justification for it. So, I'm asking you nicely: please stop this behavior and try to be more constructive and polite. Reach out only when you actually have legitimate, fresh reasons to appeal.