NASCAR technical

Let’s pose a quick question here.

If the exact same driver is behind the wheel of two different cars—assuming they both have identical horsepower but deliver their torque at different RPM levels—which one is going to be faster?

For instance, let's look at an Audi A3 1.8 with 150 hp that hits 250 nm of torque at 3,000 RPM, versus a Honda Civic 1.6 with 150 hp that peaks at just 145 nm at 7,000 RPM. If we assume both vehicles weigh the same and share identical suspension setups, which one pulls ahead on the track?

Is Isaac Newton some kind of fraud? We could even start a poll if you want to see what everyone else thinks about this.🙂

mellowtiger83 said:Read your own post before I print it out and tape it to your forehead, 🤣

Don't bother. My eyesight's pretty shot after all those beers today. 😁
Besides, just wait for Joe... he'll listen to your little theory, then measure the horsepower, torque, acceleration, and all that junk just by listening to the engine, and then he'll tell you how things actually work. 😉

mellowtiger83 said:Let me ask a quick question!!

If the same driver drives two different cars with the same horsepower but different torque at different RPMs, which one is faster?

For example, we have an Audi A3 1.8 with 150hp producing 250nm at 3000 RPM, and we have a Honda Civic 1.6 with 150hp producing peak torque of 145nm at 7000 RPM. Assuming both cars weigh the same and have the same suspension, which one is going to be faster on the track?

Clever trick question, but I've got the answer.
If Fernando Alonso is driving both, they’re both going to be junk. ☕
But even so, the Honda is going to be more of a junk pile than anything else. 😬
So, the Honda loses. 😉

Michael Diaz4 said:You clearly don't get it. There's an entire thread dedicated to horsepower and torque, so don't make me go over this AGAIN...
If the moderator moves these posts to the technical section, then we can provide a much more detailed explanation of what you failed to grasp and where exactly you're looking foolish...
No, the main thing is that you just constantly trash Sebastian Vettel regardless of what he's driving. Last year he had one of the best cars, and this year he's in something that's ALMOST the best...

When did I ever trash Sebastian Vettel? Perhaps occasionally in jest 🙂, but I have actually defended him against Richard more times than not last year.

mellowtiger83 said:Let’s settle a little debate.

If you take the same driver in two different cars—identical horsepower but different torque curves at different RPM ranges—which one wins?

For example: we have an Audi A3 1.8 with 150 hp delivering 250 Nm at 3,000 RPM, versus a Honda Civic 1.6 with 150 hp peaking at 145 Nm at 7,000 RPM. Assuming they weigh the same and share identical suspension setups, which car is faster on a track?

Was Isaac Newton out of his mind? We can hold a poll if you want—let's see what this community actually thinks.🙂

Whichever one has the better driver.😬

Or rather—whichever one the driver can actually rely on.

stormybadger8 said:No need for that. My vision is a bit blurry after quite a few Budweisers today.😁
Besides, just wait for Joe... he’ll listen to your little theory, then measure the horsepower, torque, acceleration, and so on just by listening to the engine, and then he'll explain what the actual reality is.😉

An interesting trick question, but I have an answer.
If Fernando Alonso drives both, both will be junk.☕
But regardless, Honda will be a bigger piece of junk than any other vehicle.😬
Therefore Honda will be slower.😉

Interesting conclusion, and somewhat true.😁, so the answer would be that the Audi would be faster because the Honda would fall apart, though until the Honda falls apart, they would be equally fast.🤣
, regardless of whether the incompetent Fernando Alonso is driving them; with equal incompetence, he'll drive both the same way. Therefore, Alonso is irrelevant in this scenario since his abilities are duplicated across both cars and don't affect the performance of one over the other. In that sense, we move from Newton toward Einstein's theory of relativity.

Look, I'll be the one to say it: Audi is going to be faster. How much faster? Well, that’s entirely dependent on how the track is laid out. 😁

Kyle Edwards5 said:I will state that Audi will be faster; however, the exact degree of that advantage depends entirely on the track configuration. 😁

This concerns rectilinear motion.
😁

Track performance ultimately boils down to the relationship between gearbox ratios and aerodynamics. It’s all interconnected. One doesn't function effectively without the other.☕Brakes. If we actually had those sorted out to the same high standard, they’d be just as fast. EQUALLY fast.

mellowtiger83 said:We're talking about linear motion here. Simple as that.
😁

If you want to actually move on the track, you have to look at the big picture. It’s all about the gear ratios in the transmission and the aero package. Period. Everything else is just noise.☕Brakes, man. It all comes down to the brakes. If we actually had those sorted out to the same high standard, they’d be just as fast. I mean, EQUALLY fast.

There is absolutely no way they’d be equal. You set them up with the exact same weight and the same high-end suspension, which means I could just as easily tame my Newton meters on both.
Man, if only Honda would just give us a classic naturally aspirated engine with more displacement than this 1.8 turbo. Seriously. Imagine that power delivery, especially if there was actually some elevation or a decent hill on the track. That would be something else.

Kyle Edwards5 said:There is absolutely no way they are equal. You've set them up with identical weight and an equally high-end suspension designed to tame their respective Newton meters just as effectively.
If we're talking about a classic naturally aspirated engine with more displacement than this 1.8 turbo—especially if there’s even a slight incline on the track—then maybe.

THEY HAVE THE SAME POWER!!!!!.

Is Isaac Newton an idiot?

Are you talking about circuit laps or a drag strip? Why did you even bring up the track at the start? 😁
In theory, they’d be dead even in a drag race. But in the real world, if you aren't hitting every single gear change on that intake perfectly, a turbo engine is going to leave you in the dust instantly.

I think I’m going to step back from this argument because, honestly, mellowtiger83 is right—we totally messed this up and we're in the wrong here. I mean, what am I supposed to do, go tell my professors at State University that they're teaching us everything wrong? If anyone else here is in engineering, maybe you should head over to your department and let them know too.

BUT... if anyone still wants to fight me on this, I will mathematically prove my point every single time. Telling me "I used to drive my granddad's Mercedes or my neighbor's BMW and it worked fine" just doesn't hold any water for me. If someone wants to take the exact same wheel diameter, calculate their own speed ratio, and then show me how different engine RPMs—even with identical power output—result in different wheel torque and acceleration for a car of the same mass, then I'll be waiting.

Here’s an interesting comparison for you 🍿
http://www.zeperfs.com/duel5560-3482.htm

So, was Isaac Newton wrong? Because apparently he was.

You just effectively dismantled his claims. It’s interesting to note that those old NASCAR technical V10 engines were the fastest units out there, despite having relatively low torque and screaming at nearly 20,000 RPM.

What certain people are actually debating is the torque range. Torque range is entirely dependent on the engine configuration and the gearbox; therefore, the transmission is what actually manages the distribution of that torque.

Two engines with the same horsepower are equally fast because they possess the same power output. The difference lies in the torque curve, which varies, but that doesn't mean something isn't moving just as fast at 13,000 RPM as it is at 7,000 RPM.

Honestly, some people are just writing nonsense and attempting to deny exact mathematical science.

If a 1000cc Yamaha R1 produces 200 hp, then it is just as fast as a Ducati producing 200 hp from an 1198cc displacement.

A Ducati pulls hard across a wide RPM range starting from the bottom end, whereas a Yamaha operates within a narrow band. However, if both machines are kept within their optimal RPM range, they are equally fast, period. That is mathematics. Naturally, differences will exist in the chassis, tires, brakes, weight, aerodynamics, and so on.

Now it's clear.

I’ve been observing how everyone discusses driving skill in terms of keeping two cars with identical power outputs but different configurations at their optimal RPM range. That is an entirely separate matter. It doesn't alter the underlying mathematics; rather, it is simply a question of individual talent, track layout, and how one manages gear ratios for a specific circuit.

450 hp at 5,000 RPM with 300 Nm is exactly the same as 450 hp at 12,000 RPM with 150 Nm. Period.

We’ve seen discussions like this pop up on various car forums more times than I can count, and it always follows the same predictable pattern. You have these so-called "weekend warriors" who get incredibly defensive the moment someone points out that their junker isn't actually faster just because they slapped an extra 30 horsepower onto it. Is it really that hard to grasp the physics involved? Well, it isn't 🙂

Frank Collins85 said:We've seen this exact debate pop up on various car forums countless times. It’s always the same pattern: some amateur tuner gets worked up, claiming their ride is suddenly a rocket ship just because they added 30 horsepower. Newsflash: it isn't. 🙂

They don't have the same weight, the same tires, the same driver, the same suspension, or the same aerodynamics.

If everything else were identical, then yes, they would be faster with an extra 30 hp. It's as simple as that.

Pirelli's stance is clear: power without control is useless. To make a vehicle fast, you first have to actually get that power down to the pavement. That is a concept those backyard tuners simply fail to grasp.

I don't think you're wrong in theory here...
But let’s be real—NASCAR would definitely see a massive difference in lap times if we were comparing a 1.6T V6 pushing 900hp against a 3.0 V10 also pushing 900hp. I have no clue how much speed you'd need just to keep that V10 sitting perfectly within its power band. Then there's the whole question of how a turbocharged engine would actually translate that advantage onto the track...
Maybe if they were hooked up to some kind of flawless CVT transmission...😁

mellowtiger83 said:From what I can gather, when people talk about driver skill—specifically keeping two different cars with equal power at their optimal RPM—they aren't changing the math. It’s really just a matter of individual talent, track layout, and how the gear ratios are tuned for a specific circuit.

Exactly.

But the actual question was who ends up faster—and the consensus is whoever can adapt to a wider variety of scenarios. In a perfect vacuum, two cars with identical power-to-weight ratios should be neck and neck, but then you factor in the chaos of NASCAR drivers—where neither you nor I would want to be.

mellowtiger83 said:Interesting point, and honestly, probably true😁. So the answer is the Audi would have been fast because the Honda was falling apart, but before that breakdown, they’d be just as quick🤣.
Regardless of whether some incompetent guy like Fernando Alonso is behind the wheel, he’d be equally useless in either car. Honestly, Alonso is irrelevant here since you're just duplicating the same lack of skill across two different cars, which doesn't change the performance. We're basically moving from Newton to Einstein's theory of relativity at this point.

That’s not quite how it works...
Alonso's incompetence might wreck a Honda engine, but what an American invents and a German builds is indestructible😉 even if some useless Spaniard😁 tries his best.

I haven't seen any posts from mario550 yet. If there’s something specific they wrote that you want me to rework, just pass it along. I'll get right on it. kaže:
Take a look at this and maybe you'll actually learn something about torque and how it functions in the real world. Here’s the bottom line: if you have two cars with the exact same power output and weight, they are going to be equally fast. Period.

🤦🤣 It’s honestly hilarious. This blog has absolutely nothing to do with anything we're actually discussing. No wonder you were making those points earlier when you were referencing this mess... 🤡