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What was "pop music" before pop music?

Started by redbear12 · · 👁 4 views · 18 replies

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Participants redbear12Betty Cruz2analogbear40quietfox38brightwolf48
redbear12 redbear12 Active MemberOP
61 messages
joined Apr 2023
#1 ·
It seems to me like everyone is obsessed with tracking the evolution of music, but they always pivot toward the heavy stuff and label it "classical." Meanwhile, they track pop music starting from the 50s, acting like nothing catchy existed before then. I’m talking about music that actually has some soul but keeps a simple structure—stuff that feels like a modern pop ballad if you really think about it.

Why hasn't anyone bothered to trace the development of "popular" music (you know, the hits for the masses) throughout American history, maybe starting from the Middle Ages all the way up to now?

I'm looking for something that bridges the gap between classical compositions and what we'd call folk music today.

A few examples:

Greensleeves

Now is the month of maying

Douce dame jolie

Summer 3/3

La Dona e mobile

☕
Betty Cruz2 Betty Cruz2 Member
21 messages
joined Nov 2010
#2 ·
Here is the ultimate precursor to
The Blue Danube: The Blue Danube

🙂
analogbear40 analogbear40 Member
20 messages
joined Nov 2013
#3 ·
Samuel Barber - Adagio for Strings (1936)

Think of it like this: one version is the classic, heartfelt foundation—it’s the steady heartbeat of a great novel. Then, you have the reimagining. It’s like taking that same story and giving it a neon glow under the lights of Times Square. It changes the vibe entirely, doesn't it?
William Orbit - Adagio for Strings (2000)
redbear12 redbear12 Active MemberOP
61 messages
joined Apr 2023
#4 ·
People have always wanted to be entertained, so honestly, it’s just common sense that pop music has existed since forever. I’m not talking about today’s Top 40 hits or even what was playing 20 or 30 years ago—I mean the actual "pop-ness" of it. Catchy tunes, stuff you don't have to overthink while listening, simple, fun, relaxing, and yeah, it repeats patterns just to keep things moving. It’s all about the vibe.

Here’s my take. I read somewhere that while music went totally massive in the late 1900s, it was already hitting huge crowds back in the 1800s. People usually claim pop "started" with rock and roll. We had that first big rock era, then it drifted into disco and electronic stuff, and eventually hip-hop showed up. But when I talk about what I mentioned in the first paragraph, I’m not stuck on a specific genre; I’m talking about that pop sensibility.
But wait, what came before rock? You’ve got the jazz era, musicals... but what was considered "serious" music back then? Well, the pop music of those times would’ve been folk or traditional tunes—that was the stuff people played for fun. But here’s the kicker: there’s actually a lot of pop hidden in classical music.

To me, it sounds crazy, but someone like Johann Strauss is basically pure pop.


An Italian track written in 1880.


All these "lighter" musical forms really started popping up once the middle class emerged.
The Baroque period (which I love) and the Classical period (okay, maybe a little less) often feel like they follow the same mold, but the compositions are weirdly catchy.

Back in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance (not my favorite, feels a bit too slow for me), you had troubadours, who were essentially the pop stars of their day. In a way, you can see echoes of that in what Americans call folk music—though obviously, that's different from how people elsewhere might define it. 😁

Look, I get it—trying to categorize music is a nightmare. Back in the day, people used this wild system of dividing music into folk, popular, and classical (the "serious" stuff). Even if textbooks didn't spell it out perfectly, they admitted that these categories are pretty flawed. Folk music can definitely be popular; in fact, if it's folk, it usually is. And are some "artistic" forms within popular music actually classical? Is it more like pop Strauss or Pink Floyd? Who’s actually popular, and who’s more "art"? It's all blurry.

Bottom line: the whole point of this is to hunt for pop music—or rather, that pop sensibility—throughout all of music history, from twenty centuries ago right back to the beginning of time. 😁
quietfox38 quietfox38 Member
30 messages
joined Mar 2023
#5 ·
The Walt Disney Company, written back in the 1850s, was probably the world's first massive pop hit—long before "pop" was even a thing.


The backstory behind the song
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Paloma
redbear12 redbear12 Active MemberOP
61 messages
joined Apr 2023
#6 ·
quietfox38 said:"La Paloma," written back in the 1850s? Honestly, that was probably the world's first actual pop hit. Long before anyone even dreamed up the concept of "pop music," they already had this.


So, here’s the deal with this song. It’s one thing to hear a track playing in the background at a Starbucks, but it’s a whole different beast when you actually sit down and dig into what’s going on under the hood. You know that feeling? When a melody just hits you right in the gut and you realize everything you thought you knew about it was totally wrong? Yeah, that.
So, I was falling down a rabbit hole earlier and stumbled upon this piece called "La Paloma." It’s one of those classic Spanish melodies that somehow ended up everywhere in America. You know the vibe—it’s got that sweeping, romantic, slightly dramatic flair that makes you feel like you should be wearing a tuxedo in a dimly lit jazz club in Chicago or something. It’s basically this legendary waltz that everyone from opera singers to street performers has tried their hand at. It’s catchy, sure, but there’s a certain weight to it. It’s not just some mindless pop tune; it actually carries some soul. Honestly, it’s the kind of song that hits you right in the nostalgia, even if you didn't live through the era it came from. Just one of those timeless things that refuses to go out of style.

I don't know how you're picturing the arrangement exactly, but it’s gotta have that same driving rhythm you hear in that famous aria from the opera Carmen.

Man, I didn't catch that at first, but now that you mention it, it totally sounds like Little Uncle. 😵
It felt a bit out of place sitting there between "O Sole Mio" and all that Verdi stuff.

Greensleeves 1580

1580

A bit more modern. This is how I picture a "pop" version of the Renaissance.🕺

It’s a bit of a slow burn for today's standards, honestly. A little sluggish. But man, that melody? It’s catchy as hell, even if it only repeats three times. Definitely falls under that American folk umbrella. If Simon & Schuster had anything from the Renaissance era, I bet they'd have something like this. They actually did a cover of some famous Renaissance folk tune once, too.

Pop music has always been around. It just used to go by the name "folk." 🤔
brightwolf48 brightwolf48 Member
22 messages
joined Jun 2013
#7 ·
A textbook example—this composition dates back to 1902.

redbear12 redbear12 Active MemberOP
61 messages
joined Apr 2023
#8 ·
brightwolf48 said:Classic example right there. Composition dates back to 1902.

Oh, that's just straight-up ragtime.

So, does that actually count as classical music or is it basically pop? I guess I'll have to go poll the experts over on the classical music forum. 😁
brightwolf48 brightwolf48 Member
22 messages
joined Jun 2013
#9 ·
Look, I realize it's ragtime. But if we're looking at the opening post—specifically regarding Strauss—we have to acknowledge that this was essentially pop music for the masses back then. Some of those waltzes are just so high-caliber that they've basically been elevated to the status of classical masterpieces. It’s the same logic applied to opera, particularly with Verdi; after all, who's to say an aria like Va pensiero isn't a legitimate masterpiece of the classical canon? Personally, I found this specific performance by the Metropolitan Opera to be quite impressive.

redbear12 redbear12 Active MemberOP
61 messages
joined Apr 2023
#10 ·
brightwolf48 said:Look, I get it's ragtime. But like the OP said, when we're talking about Strauss, we're talking about music made for the masses back then. Some of those waltzes are just so damn good they basically become classical masterpieces. It's the same deal with operas—especially Verdi. Who's gonna argue an aria like Va pensiero isn't absolute classical perfection? Honestly, this Metropolitan Opera performance is incredible.

They’re basically 19th-century pop hits😁 😛

Nah, think about that movie about Mozart where they show Salieri (that's his name, right?). Today, Mozart is a household name, while Salieri is just... who?

It feels like before the 20th century, "classical" music was actually kind of massive. Like, mainstream.

Modern classical music? If you listen to stuff written in the 21st century, it might be interesting, but it's such a try-hard vibe. Everything screams, "We're so elite and special that we have to make sure as few people as possible enjoy us."

If you follow that logic, someone's gonna decide The Beatles are "classical music" in a hundred years, or maybe even sooner.🤔

Take Tchaikovsky, for example. Out of everything I've heard, he’s got that artistic edge, but he's also super melodic, breezy, and honestly, a little sweet.

Maybe I should suggest checking out a certain NPR program about this.😁

I remember hearing some classical stuff on public radio once, and it sounded weirdly... low-tier? I don't know which composers they were playing, nothing famous, but it felt really formulaic. Just way lower quality than what I usually hear. Hmm?🤔 (But hey, that's a whole different thread: does "low-quality" classical music even exist? 😁)
quietfox38 quietfox38 Member
30 messages
joined Mar 2023
#11 ·
redbear12 said:It’s a bit of a slowdown by today's standards, but there's a nice little melody that repeats three times. Yeah, that counts as English folk. Even something like Simon & Garfunkel has a bit of a Renaissance vibe to them. They even did a cover of a famous Renaissance folk song once.

Pop music has always been around; we just used to call it folk. 🤔

Scarborough Fair

It's an interesting case because nobody really knows when the music for this song actually started. The lyrics date back to at least the 17th century, maybe even older, but was the melody actually composed in the 20th century just to sound medieval? Or is the tune itself ancient? You can hear several different recordings in the YouTube clip.

Obviously, the most famous version is the one by Simon & Garfunkel that came out after all those other versions.
redbear12 redbear12 Active MemberOP
61 messages
joined Apr 2023
#12 ·
Thanks for merging my old (forgotten) thread with this one 🙏

There was a phase where I lived for Renaissance and Medieval music—just tons of those sacred pieces. Compared to that stuff, listening to Bach or Mozart feels like you're at a damn house party. Even their sacred works don't hit with that same mystical, heavy intensity you get from the Middle Ages. Honestly, some of their tracks give off a total party vibe if you ask me 🤔

But then I stumbled upon this one interesting piece. Pretty sure it’s a Christmas track (totally inappropriate timing, I know, wrong season entirely 😁
). Even though it's a bit odd, it’s actually kind of catchy for that era—maybe because it's for Christmas? It's got this weirdly catchy pop hook. (Am I using the right terminology here? 🤔)


Jean Brassart (1400-1455): Gratulemur Christicole
redbear12 redbear12 Active MemberOP
61 messages
joined Apr 2023
#13 ·
Bringing this thread back to life after a few months 🙏

Mozart - Leck mich im Arsch

I stumbled upon this existence about 10 years ago 🤦😵 🤦
Look, I know exactly what that title means, so I’m definitely not touching the full translation with a ten-foot pole. 😲

I've picked up a few things over the last couple of months. Ever since the 18th century, there's been this whole "light music" movement in classical circles. Basically, it was just less "serious" classical stuff. An early example would be Mozart's Eine kleine Nachtmusik.

Some light music composers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...usic_composers

There are a ton of them from the 20th century; I spent a little time clicking through.

Then you have this concept called parlour music, a style that had a massive influence on 20th-century pop.

It’s pretty wild how medieval troubadour music (which has a huge variety of forms and styles) doesn't even sound like typical medieval classical music. It sounds more like the pop music of the Middle Ages. Then again, that might just be down to the interpretation—some troubadour styles are dead serious while others aren't at all.

La Rotta

A l'entrada del temps clar

Ja Nus Hons Pris

Jameko During the Renaissance, some guy named John Playford used to write dance music for courts.

Tirsi e clor, SV 145-Claudio Monteverdi

Sounds pretty heavy at first, but from what I can tell, this dance piece eventually kind of "wakes up" halfway through.
quietfox38 quietfox38 Member
30 messages
joined Mar 2023
#14 ·


Some people claim Canon in D by Johann Pachelbel was actually the first pop song. It dates back to the late 1600s, and there’s a pretty interesting story behind it. Even though Pachelbel had a decent reputation back in his day, the piece eventually just sort of faded into obscurity. It didn't really see a massive resurgence until after 1968, when an orchestra recorded it and brought it back into the spotlight.

Pachelbel's Canon. It’s everywhere. You hear it at weddings, you hear it in commercials, you probably heard it in a movie once. It's one of those pieces that feels instantly familiar, even if you've never actually studied music theory. The structure is pretty straightforward—it's built on this repeating ground bass. Think of it like a steady heartbeat or a loop in a modern pop song. It just keeps cycling through those same chords while the melodies layer on top of each other, getting more complex as they go. It's simple, but it works. That’s why it sticks.

The song uses the same chord progression you hear in tons of modern pop hits. It’s actually pretty funny how often it shows up—kind of like what they joke about in that viral YouTube clip, "Pachelbel Rant." 🙂

redbear12 redbear12 Active MemberOP
61 messages
joined Apr 2023
#15 ·
quietfox38 said:


For Pachelbel's Canon in D Johann Pachelbel. Some people are out here claiming it’s the first actual pop song ever. Honestly? Please. It popped up in the late 1600s, and man, the backstory is actually pretty wild. This track is basically a global heavyweight in classical music now, but even though Pachelbel was a big deal back in his day, the song just kind of vanished into thin air for a while. It didn't really blow up again until after 1968, when some orchestra finally recorded it and brought it back into the spotlight.

So, I was just falling down a rabbit hole looking at Pachelbel’s Canon. It’s one of those things that’s everywhere. You hear it at weddings, you hear it in commercials, you probably heard it in a cheesy pop song once while waiting in line at Starbucks. It’s basically the soundtrack to life in America. The structure is what gets me. It’s this repetitive, looping progression that just builds and builds. It’s catchy, sure, but it’s also kind of hypnotic. People act like it’s this high-brow masterpiece, which it is, but it’s also become the ultimate "easy listening" staple. It's the musical equivalent of a really comfortable pair of Levi's—classic, reliable, and everyone knows exactly what they're getting. Anyway, just some random thoughts while my coffee gets cold. Total tangent, I know.

The chord progression here is basically the same one used in half the pop hits on the radio right now. It’s actually pretty funny—there's this viral YouTube clip called "Pachelbel Rant" that breaks down exactly how repetitive it all is. 🙂

The first pop song? Out of everything written here, that’s the one that actually caught my attention. Yeah, I’ve heard the talk about the chords, even if I don't really get what makes them tick. But here’s the real question: what exactly defines a "pop song"? Are we talking about something that's just popular, or does it actually have to *sound* like pop?

We already had troubadours and troubadresses back in the Middle Ages (wait, how do you even say that for women?)🤔It’s basically the medieval version of today's pop-rock. Honestly, if you took some mid-era dance instrumentals and gave them a few modern production tweaks, you could easily blast them in clubs tonight.

Neidhart von Reuental-Meie in the soft glow.

What a banger. 🙏
quietfox38 quietfox38 Member
30 messages
joined Mar 2023
#16 ·
redbear12 said:A pop song? That's the only part of this whole thread that grabbed me. I've heard people talk about those chords, even if the theory goes right over my head. But what does "pop" actually mean here? Is it about how many people liked it, or just whether it has that pop sound?

About that second point. It sounds just like the stuff you hear on the radio today. Hard to say if it was a hit back then, though, since it stayed under the radar for so long.
redbear12 redbear12 Active MemberOP
61 messages
joined Apr 2023
#17 ·
quietfox38 said:That second one. Honestly, sounds just like any generic pop song on the radio today. Hard to tell if it actually blew up back then since everyone forgot about it for ages.

Alright, thanks for the heads up ☕

I was talking more about the pop vibe. Take that medieval example—it doesn't sound anything like modern Top 40 hits, sure, but when I hear it, I don't think "classical." To me, that's basically just medieval pop music.
redbear12 redbear12 Active MemberOP
61 messages
joined Apr 2023
#18 ·
German Folk Songs [compilation]

Just listened to the first 15 minutes. What even is this? Since when were these bops?! 😲🙏

Verbum patris umanatur o o

Sacred, sure, but totally pop

The Indian Tales, Fourth Entry "The Savages": "Peaceful Forests" (Winter, Adario, Savages)

Structure-wise, it’s pretty basic Baroque stuff compared to Vivaldi or Bach.

Found this interesting deep dive on "popular music." They claim you can track its evolution starting from the 17th century. Hmm. Maybe they just mean things that went mainstream? Because honestly, some Medieval tracks sound pretty pop to me.
Wikipedia has this entry on "light music" saying it's always evolving, but they don't really nail down the specific trajectory.

Also, this explanation of popular music lists all the different genres that fit under the umbrella.
Popular music includes: songs and dances printed in England during the late 17th century; melodies used in 18th-century English ballad opera, German Operetta, Italian opera buffa, and French opéra comique—stuff that reached the masses via traveling musicians and street performers; most choral societies and brass band repertoires in the 19th century; music from promenade concerts and outdoor festivals in the 19th century (think amusement gardens or taverns) in cities like Vienna (with orchestras by composer-conductors Johann Strauss II and his father, mostly waltzes), Paris (Philippe Mussard), London (Louis Jullien), and so on; the repertoire of musical theater (operetta, zarzuela, cabaret, vaudeville, revue) from the late 19th to early 20th century (ranging from Jacques Offenbach through Franz von Suppé, Johann Strauss II, Karl Millöcker, Ivan Zajac, Arthur Sullivan, Emmerich Kálmán, Franz Lehár, and Ivo Tijardović); American song and musical productions by composers (Paul Dresser, Irving Berlin, George Gershwin, Jerome Kern, Cole Porter, Richard Rodgers, etc.) from the Tin Pan Alley era at the turn of the 20th century; and various types of American ethnic music (like Irish folk, country, or predominantly African American cakewalk, ragtime, jazz, and blues)...


Source

There's more, but it stays on topic.

And finally, some Renaissance soft-pop to wrap things up.

The King's Singers "If Music Be the Food of Love" (Henry Purcell)
redbear12 redbear12 Active MemberOP
61 messages
joined Apr 2023
#19 ·
Troubadour : Oswald von Wolkenstein - Her wiert uns dürstet also sere

🙂🙂🙂

So, Oswald was kicking around from roughly 1376 to 1445, which means I guess I could technically toss him onto a classical music playlist. But honestly? No matter how old the track is, it doesn't have that "high art" vibe. It just sounds like a straight-up party bop.
I’d never call this classical music anyway. To me, this is just pop—doesn't matter if it was written in the 14th or 15th century.

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