Overrated athletes?

It should also be noted that Jordan absolutely relished his status as a global icon during the nineties.
The nineties were all about celebrating the individual—people were searching for that one superstar, that "machine," and since the internet wasn't around in any meaningful way back then, certain narratives from basketball fans—or let's just call them haters—simply couldn't gain traction online.
Fast forward to the two-thousands, and the whole vibe changed; people started tearing idols down, hunting for flaws and scandals, rather than admiring greatness as a singular force. Now, with the internet, endless forums, and blogs, there’s always someone ready to debate everything from the trivial to the monumental.
Do you really think LeBron's move to the Heat would have faced that level of massive backlash if it had happened in the nineties?

Jordan managed to bypass all that scrutiny, which is why his reputation remains pristine—he stayed cemented as the greatest of all time.
If he had been playing in the modern era, I am certain there would be far more controversy surrounding his legacy... we wouldn't see him discussed as the undisputed GOAT quite so much, simply because the collective atmosphere among basketball fans isn't the same anymore. We'd see so many more debates like this one—it would probably be one of the hottest topics on every sports forum—and honestly, that might have made his brilliance seem just a little less blinding...

Carl Mendoza4 said:That’s exactly how it sounds.
It reminds me of a buddy of mine who lived for Kemp; he practically developed an ulcer just watching NBA broadcasts.😁

Does anyone else remember those old NBA broadcasts?
Just like how Blažičko used to drive people crazy with Senn, Slavek was a hundred times worse with his relentless cheering for the Chicago Bulls. He’d constantly drone on about how Jordan—whom he’d scream about as "MAJKLLLLL"—was the greatest red-clad dominant force of all time.

Back then, people would complain about the local network and vent about that biased commentary. I’ll never forget Slavek actually saying during a broadcast, "I hear some viewers are complaining that we're rooting for the Bulls. WELL, WHO ELSE WOULD WE ROOT FOR!? Because of Kuki, because of Dukan (who was a big deal, a scout 🙄), because of Michael"...

Honestly, he was enough on his own to infuriate the audience and turn everyone against Chicago, even if the sound of his lighter clicking near the microphone was actually kind of charming.

Jason Fisher78 said:That’s just plain wrong, and you can prove it with the numbers. Scottie Pippen actually played his best ball when Jordan wasn't even on the court. Back in '94, he was averaging 22 points, 8.7 rebounds, and 5.6 assists. When else did he ever hit those kinds of numbers? In '95, he became only the second player in history to lead his team in points, boards, assists, blocks, and steals. So, he was at his absolute peak while Jordan was away, which totally kills the idea that Jordan "pushed" him to be better.

Tim Longley? A mediocre player from start to finish. Jordan didn't improve him one bit. We're talking about a center who averaged 5 rebounds and 7 points for his career. Give me a break—Jordan didn't "upgrade" him.

Take Steve Kerr, for example. You want to know when he had his best season? It was 1994, right when he joined the Chicago Bulls. That was the year Jordan was out. How does that work if Jordan wasn't pushing him? Plus, Kerr was already one of the top three shooters in history during the '89-'90 season playing for the Cleveland Cavaliers. That was long before he ever shared a floor with Jordan. Clearly, Jordan didn't make him better. He was an elite player both before and after joining Jordan.

And look at Dennis Rodman. By 1990 and 1991 in Detroit, he had already established himself as the best defensive player out there. That was before he ever teamed up with Jordan. It was actually Rodman's arrival that pushed Chicago toward those three titles. He pushed Jordan, not the other way around.

Etc. ☕

So how is it that Rodman didn't push Robinson to get rings?
And why did Pippen have his best stats when Jordan wasn't around? Look... if you don't get that, I honestly can't help you.

Hey, you're entitled to your opinion. But honestly, everyone except Jordan deserves credit for those six rings and that '82-'10 run. Especially Kerr and Pippen. Then Rodman, and then Jordan. Maybe Toni Kukoč somewhere in there too.

Now tell me, how many players actually have better stats than Jordan? Let's stick to the playoffs, because regular season stats are total garbage anyway.

darkpilot9 said:Don't tell me you guys don't remember those old NBA broadcasts.
Just like how Blažičko drives people crazy with Senn, Slavek was a hundred times worse with his constant cheering for the Chicago Bulls and that non-stop chanting about how Jordan—whom he’d scream "MICHAEEEELLLLL" for—was the greatest, most dominant red-clad master of all time.

Back then, everyone would complain about the national networks because of his bias. I'll never forget Slavek actually saying during a broadcast: "I hear some viewers are complaining that we're rooting for the Bulls. WELL, WHO ELSE WOULD WE ROOT FOR!? Because of Kuki, because of Dukan (big deal, scout 🙄), because of Michael"...

Seriously, he was enough on his own to irritate people and turn them against the Chicago Bulls, even if the sound of his lighter clicking near the mic was almost charming in a weird way.

Facts. I hated the Bulls and Jordan. But I'm definitely not going to make up stupid nonsense like saying Rodman pushed him to three titles.
Slavek, the sound of the lighter, and that coughing into the mic...🤣🤣🙏

I don't know, maybe I'm just seeing things, but I feel like Sergio Ramos is such an overrated athlete.

Wow, Jason Fisher78. It’s pretty obvious you either don't get it or you just don't want to see it.
It is freaking OBVIOUS that Scottie Pippen had better numbers when Jordan wasn't there, simply because he HAD to step up and take over the leadership role. So why didn't he put up those kinds of stats when Jordan was on the court? Was it because Michael had to be the face of the franchise due to the media hype, or was it just because he was the better player?
Scottie was an incredible all-around player, and honestly, he was built perfectly to handle all that "invisible," gritty dirty work—there's really no one quite like him, at least in the era I've followed.
But there is a very specific reason why Scottie remained in that supporting role to Jordan, and a reason why Phil organized things that way.
Media hype?
Of course. ☕

I mean, it's almost impossible to have a real conversation with you because you view absolutely everything through the lens of raw statistics. You end up creating this circular logic loop of "arguments"—claiming they played better without Jordan because their stats were higher (even though those stats were higher only because they had to fill the void left by Jordan).

There is just one "subtle" little difference, though. Without Jordan, zero championships. With him, six.

rowdytinker3 said:Hey, you're entitled to your opinion. But honestly? Everyone besides Jordan deserves credit for those six rings and that incredible 82-10 season. I'd say Steve Kerr and Scottie Pippen were the biggest contributors, followed by Dennis Rodman, and then Jordan. And Toni Kukoč was definitely in that mix somewhere too.

Personally, though, I still think the real turning point was that center duo, Longley - Wennington. 🙏

Jason Fisher78 said:Not really. I was actually pulling for the Los Angeles Lakers until Vlade Divac joined the roster. After that, I switched my loyalty over to their biggest rivals, the Boston Celtics. They just had this whole vibe—sort of like a classic, old-school, Irish-Catholic, East Coast establishment type of team.

Alright, I think I get the gist of where you're coming from. I'm gonna wrap this discussion up here. Take care.

rowdytinker3 said:That’s true. I personally couldn't stand the Chicago Bulls or Jordan. But just because I disliked them doesn't mean I'm going to spin nonsense like Rodman was the reason he secured three titles.
Slavko, the sound of a lighter flicking followed by a cough into the mic🤣🤣🙏

The argument isn't about proving Jordan wasn't a great player; it's about debunking the myth that he was some sort of superhuman. We've been bombarded with that narrative for decades, and frankly, it's still happening today. As darkwolf61 pointed out quite eloquently, there's a reason we fall for it.
My point above was that every single move he made—not just on the court, but in his private life—was glorified to an extreme degree. That is where Jordan is overrated. He is undoubtedly one of the greatest players to ever step onto a court, but he isn't a god. He had elite teammates, a world-class coach, and, perhaps most importantly, a masterclass in public relations.

Carl Mendoza4 said:Well, that’s how it sounds.
Like this one buddy of mine who was such a massive Dikembe Mutombo fan he practically developed an ulcer just watching NBA broadcasts.😁

Either we had the exact same friend, or way more people ended up with ulcers.😁 😁

I remember being at sports bars all the time—rooms full of anti-Chicago Bulls fans, sitting there at 2:00 AM biting their nails, only to watch their team choke in the end anyway.😁

Carl Mendoza4 said:wow, snowleopard. you clearly don't get it, or maybe you just don't want to.
It’s freaking OBVIOUS Pippen had better numbers when Jordan wasn't around, because he HAD to step up as the leader. Why didn't he put up those kinds of stats when Jordan was there? Was it because Michael had to be the face of the team due to CNN hype, or just because he's a better player?
Scottie was an incredible all-around player, basically built to do all that "invisible," dirty work that nobody else could touch. At least in the era I've watched.
But there's a reason Scottie was just supporting Jordan, and a reason why Phil organized things that way.
CNN hype?
Duh. ☕

Honestly, talking to you is pointless because you look at everything strictly through stats. You end up creating this circular logic "argument"—that they played better without Jordan because their stats were higher (and their stats were higher because they had to fill the void left by Jordan).

There's just one "subtle" difference. Zero rings without Jordan. Six rings with him.

Just let him be.
Without Jordan, they had a season with two more wins, but then they got knocked out in the Eastern Conference semifinals because of a robbery. If they hadn't been robbed, they would've won. So, according to him, that season is better than the previous one with Jordan, which had two fewer wins but ended with a championship. Fine.🙏

And then his argument becomes about scoring 50 points at a dunk contest in Chicago when he hit a free-throw dunk and barely cleared the line!!! CNN hype.🙏🙏 I mean, I'll admit it, he shouldn't have gotten those 50 points; he only got them because he was the "homegrown" guy!

I bet his bio says "historical revisionist" and "making excuses."🙏

rowdytinker3 said:But honestly, who cares? It’s just more noise for the average American to obsess over. Besides, Babe Ruth played baseball, not football. I'm pretty sure the point was about Babe Ruth.

Look, that's why I brought up Europe—it's broader than just the US. Why should we care more about what some guy in America thinks compared to what a Dane, a Frenchman, or a German might say?
Believe it or not, Ballack probably has more fans in Sweden or Denmark than he does here in the States.

Yeah, he played baseball, but bringing up the NFL was just a way to drive home that "American sports are unbeatable" trope, where everyone acts like the US champion is basically the world champion.

darkpilot9 said:The point isn't proving that Jordan wasn't a great player; it's proving he wasn't some superhuman deity. We've been fed that myth for decades, and honestly, people are still doing it today. Decent Young put it pretty clearly.
I already laid out how every single move he made—whether it was on the court or in his personal life—was hyped up to an insane degree. That’s where he gets overrated. Look, he's one of the greatest to ever play the game, period, but he isn't a god. He had elite teammates, a top-tier coach, and, just as importantly, a world-class PR machine behind him.

Look, I don't give a damn about the CNN coverage, his PR stunts, or his private life. I only care about those 48 minutes on the hardwood. And when it comes to that, the man cannot be overrated. End of story. I'm done talking about it.

darkpilot9 said:The argument isn't about proving Jordan wasn't an all-time great; it's about proving he wasn't some sort of superhuman. We've been fed that myth for years, and honestly, we're still being bombarded with it today. Decent Young actually gave a pretty solid explanation as to why that is.

Wait, what? A superhuman?
Only someone who isn't taking this seriously would even claim that. But then again, our benchmarks aren't exactly the same... over the decades, basketball coverage has become so much more intense, both here in the States and everywhere else.
I mean, do we really have any clue what people were actually saying or writing about Dr. J, Bird, Russell, or Wilt back in the day in America?
Let's not kid ourselves.

The guy was a total beast and ran the league for nearly a decade; he was a born winner. And look, whether you love him or hate him, he was definitely among the absolute best at some point. Now, whether he stays in that "all-time top tier" conversation is really just down to individual opinion.

And it’s so obvious how desperately the NBA needs a superstar, just looking at the post-Jordan era. I won't even get started on Shaq's struggles or all those other big names that used to dominate the headlines in the US.
Jordan isn't to blame for the league needing a face, but if he took advantage of that situation—well, yeah, he did. And that's perfectly fair. It's not like Robert Horry would have done it differently, right?

frozentiger6 said:Either we were hanging out with the exact same group of friends, or a whole lot more people got hit by the same wave. 😁 😁

I’ve always noticed this pattern—rooms packed with anti-Bulls fans, just sitting there at two in the morning biting their nails in suspense, only to have the Bulls come out and win it all in the end. 😁

I was rooting for Golden State 🤦
and, honestly, Houston too.

frozentiger6 said:Look, that’s exactly why I brought up Europe and kept the scope broader than just America. Why are we obsessing over what some guy from the States thinks? It shouldn't matter more than what a Dane, a Frenchman, or a German has to say about this.
Believe it or not, Ballack probably has more fans in Sweden or Denmark than he does here in America.

He played baseball, sure, but the NFL is really just an excuse to push that whole "American sports are unbeatable" narrative, like being a US champion somehow makes you the best in the world.

No way. I was just reacting to that take. Forget Ruth—who actually sits around watching baseball?

When you look at Jordan, you can't just ignore how much those overpriced Nike Air sneakers helped fuel the fire 🙏 🙏 🙏

That's just classic American marketing for you... honestly, people will buy just about anything if you wrap it up pretty enough.

I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It is undeniable that Michael was an exceptional talent, yet one cannot ignore how much the media inflated his status, crafting this image of an infallible, god-like figure to justify astronomical salaries—a tactic we still see played out today. Personally, I find that most of these modern soccer "superstars" are vastly overrated and wildly overpaid. I suppose that is simply the nature of the business; the industry prefers to glorify certain icons while suppressing those who possess genuine merit, provided they lack the right marketing machine or the necessary connections to stay relevant.👎

rowdytinker3 said:so how is it that Dennis Rodman didn't just carry Oscar Robertson to a title?

I mean, obviously, you can't just have anyone carry anyone else to a championship whenever they feel like it.

rowdytinker3 said:hey, you're entitled to your opinion. honestly, everyone except Jordan deserves credit for those 6 titles and that 82-10 season. especially Steve Kerr and Scottie Pippen. then maybe Dennis Rodman, and finally Jordan. and somewhere in there, Toni Kukoč.

The whole point is that they all reached those titles together by helping each other out, rather than the rest of them just riding Jordan's coattails. And when the chemistry in the three and four spots wasn't quite right—especially within Jackson's triangle offense where Jordan really flourished—the championships stopped coming. Just like how this group wouldn't have accomplished anything without Jordan, Jordan wouldn't have done much without them either. It's pretty simple, really. Which basically means Jordan isn't some kind of "one-man show."

rowdytinker3 said:Alright, then tell me, how many players actually rank higher than Jordan in the stats? We could just stick to the playoffs if we wanted, since the regular season is basically a joke anyway.

I guess the question is just framed wrong. Like, which specific stat? But fine, looking at it generally and not just the playoffs: Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, Magic Johnson, and in certain categories, even Larry Bird and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Personally, I think everyone on that list besides Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is better than Jordan.