Soy and its phytoestrogen effects

So, I finally picked up some soy milk.
I was hoping my old lady might actually drink it—maybe it’ll help calm down those sudden outbursts of rage she’s been having lately. In my last moment of optimism, I’m chalking it all up to menopause.
But of course, she refuses. She thinks she’s absolutely perfect and doesn't need any of that "smelly" soy. So, I figured, fine—I'll just drink it myself. A little extra estrogen shouldn't hurt, especially since I'm working with a very modest set of assets here.
Anyway, I started doing some digging...

Basically, soy milk contains Phytoestrogen:

Women in the East (China, Japan) seem to experience menopause quite differently than women in the West. Apparently, they hardly have any issues at all. 🤷
The reality is that when women move from the East to the West, they start picking up the exact same "troubles" as American women. Diet is definitely a major factor here. Over in the East, the diet is still heavily based on vegetables and soy products, whereas here in the States, we lean heavily on grains and meat while barely touching our greens. Beyond the difference in fiber, vitamins, and minerals, there's a huge gap in the intake of other plant compounds known as phytoestrogens. These can really help women during menopause because when estrogen production starts to dip, these compounds step in to fill the void. I was feeling pretty good about this until I read THIS:

:

How Phytoestrogens Work
Phytoestrogens exhibit both estrogenic and anti-estrogenic effects.
Okay, first thought: what on earth does that mean? It helps a little, then takes away a little? 🤔

When there isn't enough estrogen in the system, active phytoestrogen metabolites take over the estrogen receptors and act like estrogen—just much more weakly. This is how they function during post-menopause once estrogen levels drop.

During perimenopause when estrogen levels are all over the place, active phytoestrogen metabolites occupy the receptor sites, which actually reduces the amount of actual estrogen that can bind to them. If someone is also eating foods that aid in breaking down and eliminating estrogen (think cabbage, kale, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, etc.), it can significantly lower the risk of harmful estrogen effects.

Recent studies suggest that increased phytoestrogen intake could decrease estrogen synthesis and alter the ratio of inactive to genotoxic estrogen metabolites—essentially lowering the ratio of genotoxic metabolites compared to total metabolites. This research was conducted specifically on premenopausal women.
The benefits of isoflavones aren't just limited to their estrogenic activity. There's research suggesting isoflavones promote apoptosis (cell suicide), inhibit angiogenesis (the formation of new blood vessels needed for cancer growth), reduce free radical damage, lower thrombin production and platelet activation, increase LDL receptor activity, and decrease the 5-alpha reductase enzyme, which is involved in converting testosterone into carcinogenic dihydrotestosterone.

But... hold on.
During menopause, women have less of their own estrogen, so the phytoestrogens from food bind to the vacant receptors and mimic estrogen. However, during the reproductive years when estrogen levels are normal, phytoestrogens from food compete for those receptor sites and act as anti-estrogens.

Okay... but I still can't find an answer to my actual question:
I'm assuming my estrogen levels are normal. So how does the "anti" part affect me?! 🤷

What do you guys think or know? Like, how does that anti-estrogenic effect actually manifest? Is it like progesterone? Or what? I mean, if I drink way too much of this stuff, what happens?

Look, if you’re dealing with endometriosis like I am, you’re almost certainly fighting an excess of estrogen—since it's an estrogen-dependent condition—so getting some phytoestrogens from soy might actually help balance out that estrogen dominance. I realize everyone says you should stay away from soy if you're pregnant or nursing, but otherwise, I don't think it can do you any harm.

placidgardener99 said:Look, if you’re dealing with endometriosis like I am, you definitely have an excess of estrogen—since it's an estrogen-dependent condition—so getting some Phytoestrogens from soy can actually help balance out that estrogen dominance. I know soy isn't great if you're pregnant or breastfeeding, but otherwise, it shouldn't do any harm.

Exactly—basically, it lowers estrogen levels if your body is overproducing them.
If production is low, it steps in to fill the gap.
And if everything is functioning normally? It acts as an ANTI-estrogen, which means it still works to lower the overall levels...

So... that implies that under normal conditions, it actually REDUCES estrogen levels.
But then... what actually happens?!

P.S.: I really hope you manage to beat this endometriosis. I'm so sorry you're going through it.

placidgardener99 said:I believe soy isn't recommended for pregnant women or young children, though it shouldn't be an issue for everyone else.

Is there any absolute certainty that it's bad for kids? I'm asking because I have a friend whose little ones are supposedly allergic to cow's milk, even though they never had any issues when they were at my house. Now she's feeding them soy milk since she heard that's fine, along with rice milk.

Kids with lactose allergies get soy milk since it doesn't have any. I mean... hopefully, that's less harmful than what they're actually allergic to, but since soy lacks calcium, you really should grab the calcium-fortified version. Just my two cents.

Mammal-based milk contains lactose, whereas soy milk doesn't—making it an excellent alternative for anyone who can't handle lactose. There are plenty of other differences, too: soy milk has nearly half the fat (and half the calories) compared to cow's milk; it also has fiber, which cow's milk lacks; plus, it has about a quarter of the salt and zero cholesterol. On the flip side, cow's milk provides more amino acids, and manufacturers have to fortify soy milk because its natural calcium levels are so low. At the end of the day, soy milk isn't even technically "milk"—it's just a plant-based beverage.

Nicole Parker93 said:Is it actually a hundred percent certain that it's bad for kids? I’m asking because I have a friend whose little ones are supposedly allergic to cow's milk, even though it never caused any issues at my house. Now she’s giving them soy milk because she thinks it's fine, and rice milk too.

Nothing feels completely certain these days, but most scientists have pretty much reached a consensus that kids shouldn't be consuming soy, mainly because of those phytoestrogens and how they might mess with their developing systems. That's why the general advice is to skip it entirely; if there's a cow's milk allergy involved, just swap it out for oat or rice milk. Personally, I find rice milk tastes disgusting, but oat milk has this nice sweetness that's actually somewhat similar to soy. On a bit of an off-topic note regarding kids, they really shouldn't be eating artificial sweeteners either—you know, like those sugar substitutes used by diabetics.

Donna Cooper98 said:yeah, so basically it lowers excess estrogen if the body is naturally pumping out too much of it.
If your levels are already low, then it just acts as a replacement.
And even if everything is functioning normally, it still works in an anti-estrogenic way, which effectively means it's lowering those levels anyway..

So here’s the thing... that implies under normal circumstances, it actually REDUCES estrogen levels..
But... what happens then?!

P.S.: I really hope you manage to get your endometriosis under control. I'm truly sorry you're going through this.

I don't have a definitive answer for you, but my take is that if we're specifically talking about certain groups who need to avoid soy, women with perfectly balanced estrogen levels aren't part of that group, so there shouldn't be any fallout. At the end of the day, it isn't some miracle drug, and most people aren't consuming such massive quantities that it would throw their entire hormonal balance off 🤷...

P.S. I'm also rooting for things to settle down for you 🙂.

placidgardener99 said:Nothing is set in stone these days, but most scientists seem to agree that kids should probably steer clear of soy—mostly because those phytoestrogens act in ways we don't fully understand yet. The general advice is to skip it; if there's a cow's milk allergy involved, just swap it for oat or rice milk instead. Personally, I can't stand rice milk—it's gross—but oat milk has that slight sweetness, kind of like soy. Side note, since we're talking about kids: they shouldn't be eating artificial sweeteners either, like those diabetic-friendly treats.

So, the real question is: is "real" sugar actually worse for kids than the fake stuff?
Seems like both are bad, but you know—pick your poison, right?

Now I'm second-guessing whether I should even drink this.
I was honestly pretty hyped about the idea of it helping my curves 🤣🤣🤣 😂😂

But man, I don't know. What’s the best move here? I finished my first liter a few hours ago and now I feel like I'm having a total hot flash episode. Is it possible for it to hit that fast, assuming it's even doing anything? I'm sweating, but I feel freezing, and my heart is racing... 🤷

I won't use it tomorrow, then I'll see how I feel.
If it really is affecting me like this... I should probably get my estrogen levels checked.
If everything is normal, then soy definitely isn't for me—unless you're a woman in menopause. If my levels are actually off, then we've got a problem. :mamza:
But seriously, I feel like I'm mid-hot flash. And it doesn't feel psychosomatic at all. 😬