Spanish Grand Prix - April 27, 2008

Since that guy Raymond Ortiz89 decided to kick things off by posting in Mexican, I felt like I had no choice but to jump in this early and get the conversation going about the Spanish Grand Prix.🙄



V. N. Spain - Catalonia
April 27, 2008 - 2:00 PM

FIRST RACE: September 29, 1991.
The track length clocks in at 4,627 meters.
TOTAL LAPS: 66190 miles)
FASTEST LAP: Felipe Massa - 1:22.680 (2007, Ferrari)
The 2007 standings: Felipe Massa takes second, Lewis Hamilton grabs second, and Fernando Alonso rounds out the top three.

HISTORY:

So, the track in Barcelona actually popped up back in '91 after the Spanish Automobile Federation decided they were done playing nice and sharing the VN Spain spotlight with four other circuits. It’s tucked away just north of Barcelona, and honestly, if you look at the layout and how it's built, it blows most of the other tracks on the calendar out of the water. When they were sketching out the design, the engineers clearly weren't just messing around; they specifically built it for those fans who live for high-stakes overtaking and pure, unadulterated adrenaline.

That first turn on this track is a nasty right-hander with a massive gravel trap sitting right there waiting to swallow you whole, so drivers really have to stay on their toes and nail that heavy braking zone right before they hit the corner. Looking back at the inaugural race here in 1991, Nigel Mansell walked away with the win, which is pretty wild considering his big rivals at the time, Gerhard Berger and Ayrton Senna, totally fell apart during their first outing on this circuit. Poor Berger ended up with a blown engine, while Senna basically shot himself in the foot by picking the wrong tires because the weather was all over the place.

Man, looking back at the history of the Spanish Grand Prix, you really see how much the game changed. Take 1992, for instance—Nigel Mansell was absolutely tearing it up, grabbing his second win at the Spanish Track while a total rookie named Michael Schumacher was just starting to make waves by snagging second place. Then you had Senna, who just couldn't catch a break at this circuit; he ended up spinning out and slamming right into the barrier just a few laps before the finish line, which was just brutal to watch. Fast forward to '93, and it was basically Alain Prost’s playground, dominating the race in that Williams machine while Ayrton Senna struggled through what felt like a cursed weekend where nothing went his way. But honestly, the heavy hitter was 1994, when Damon Hill finally took the checkered flag. That win was huge, man—it was more than just a trophy; it was the one moment that actually brought a bit of light back to his team after the absolute tragedy of losing Ayrton Senna.

Man, looking back at those years, Michael Schumacher snagging second place on this track again felt like a total omen, honestly. It’s like those two runner-up finishes were just setting the stage for his absolute masterclass in '95 and '96, you know? I mean, those races were soaking wet, exactly the kind of chaotic, rainy mess where Michael turns into a complete wizard—he was sitting way back in 6th place and somehow sliced through the field to take the lead by lap 12. Just pure magic. Then fast forward to '97, and suddenly Williams is the only car that matters, leaving everyone else in the dust when Jacques Villeneuve cruises away to grab the win.

So, after that big win from Williams, we basically entered this era where McLaren just absolutely owned the show, dominated by Mika Häkkinen for three straight years. Seriously, through '98, '99, and 2000, the McLaren cars looked like they were playing a completely different sport than everyone else on the grid—just totally untouchable and lightyears ahead of the competition. But then, fast forward to the next year, and Ferrari finally figured out how to shut that whole party down, stopping McLaren's streak dead in its tracks and letting Michael Schumacher grab his third win on the track.

Look, if you look back at the next two years, the winner of the Spanish Grand Prix didn't change once. I mean, seriously, Michael Schumacher just absolutely owned the Spanish Track in 2002 and 2003, keeping that winning streak alive like he was untouchable or something—he was just straight-up invincible.

Back in 2004, Michael Schumacher absolutely tore it up at the Spanish Grand Prix, grabbing his fifth straight win of the season and tying his own record that had been set way back in 1992 by none other than Nigel Mansell, who used that killer Williams car with the active suspension to pull it off.
Fast forward exactly one year after that win in Spain, and it was Kimi Räikkönen standing on top of the podium in that McLaren-Mercedes machine. Honestly, the guy was untouchable—he snatched pole position and just absolutely dominated the race from the moment the lights went out until he crossed that finish line. After Kimi, you had Alonso pulling in second for Renault, followed by Trulli, who managed to snag yet another podium for the Toyota crew.

Finally, back in 2006, Fernando Alonso actually managed to pull off a win on home soil, which was huge. That Spaniard absolutely crushed it, leaving both Michael Schumacher and his own teammate Giancarlo Fisichella in the dust with a seriously convincing performance.
Back in 2007, out on the Spanish track, Felipe Massa absolutely nailed it, grabbing his second win of the season right in front of the McLaren duo—Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso.

PAST WINNERS:

2007: Felipe Massa (Ferrari)
2006: Fernando Alonso (Renault)
2005: Kimi Raikkonen (McLaren)
2004: Michael Schumacher (Ferrari)
2003: Michael Schumacher (Ferrari)
2002: Michael Schumacher (Ferrari)
2001: Michael Schumacher (Ferrari)
2000: Mika Häkkinen (McLaren)
1999: Mika Häkkinen (McLaren)
1998: Mika Häkkinen (McLaren)
1997: Jacques Villeneuve (Williams)
1996: Michael Schumacher (Ferrari)
1995: Michael Schumacher (Benetton)
1994: Damon Hill (Williams)
1993: Alain Prost (Williams)
1992: Nigel Mansell (Williams)
1991: Nigel Mansell (Williams)
1990: Alain Prost (Ferrari)
1989: Ayrton Senna (McLaren)
1988: Alain Prost (McLaren)

Not much to say. I’m just hoping Renault finds some actual pace for the Spanish Grand Prix, because right now, this whole situation is a total disaster.

Carl Palmer4 said:There isn't much to look forward to, really. Though I’m desperately hoping Renault finds a bit more pace for the Spanish Grand Prix, because honestly, the way things are going right now is nothing short of a total disaster.

I mean, does anyone actually expect anything more from Renault at this point?🤣🤣🤣🤣

Raymond Ortiz89 said:I mean, is anyone actually expecting anything more from Renault?🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

And why wouldn't they expect something?

People forget way too fast about when Renault was absolutely crushing both McLaren and Ferrari. And that was only, what, eighteen months ago?

☕

And they’ll definitely find plenty of opportunities to pull something like that again sooner or later.

Robert Reed5 said:they’ll certainly find plenty of opportunities to pull a stunt like that again down the road

Honestly, whatever they manage to pull off at Ferrari, MCM, or BMW, they could just as easily replicate over at Renault
if not actually improve upon it...

The only real bottleneck would be if we were talking about something strictly off-limits for development
(like the engine—though I find it hard to believe the gap is truly that massive, maybe a mere 10 to 15 HP)

hollowhawk412 said:anything they can pull off at Ferrari, McM, or BMW, they can handle at Renault too
maybe even better...

the only real issue arises if we're talking about something strictly off-limits for development
(like the engine—though I doubt the gap is actually that wide... maybe 10 to 15 HP)

😂😂

Arthur Doyle70 said:😂😂

Honestly (though I’m telling you this without any actual agitation)...

It feels like you're increasingly turning into a complete nobody, just another faceless ghost drifting through the forums...

You just sit there twitching away, never actually contributing a single meaningful thought regarding the technical side of Formula 1.

Whenever you find yourself completely lacking the capacity to formulate an actual thought or contribute anything of substance to the conversation, you just resort to tossing out emojis like some sort of intellectual white flag, effectively dodging any meaningful debate altogether.
You're just twisting my words...

You are essentially fighting against the very logic of the universe...

So, you’re actually sitting there claiming that Kimi lost out in 2005 "just" because of engine unreliability? That is quite a leap, and frankly, a rather shallow interpretation of how that season unfolded.
If you apply even a shred of elementary logic to the situation, what on earth is supposed to be meant by the claim that the Renault engine is superior to the Mercedes engine at higher RPMs—specifically regarding its reliability?
It’s not like you find any difficulty at all in simultaneously claiming that this, too, is the case.
It isn't quite like that...

I happen to be one of those "rare" individuals who actually believes that the RPM limit didn't do Mercedes any favors whatsoever; even the most die-hard McLaren supporter you'll meet—looking right at you, Mr. Jergović—seems to think it’s actually helping them.

Honestly, every single one of your replies is just pure Smajlić...

The results speak for themselves...

I’ve been thinking about it lately, and honestly, I truly believe that 2006 stood as the final year where we actually saw any significant amount of genuine engineering freedom left on the table. After that, everything just started feeling increasingly restricted, as if the technical regulations were being tightened more and more specifically to stifle the creative ingenuity that used to define the sport.
And we all saw exactly how that whole mess played out.

hollowhawk412 said:Honestly—and I’m telling you this without any hard feelings...

you’re turning into one of those useless forum lurkers...

all you do is fidget around; you never actually write anything meaningful about the technical side of Formula 1...

when you don't know what to say, you just drop emojis and dodge the actual debate,
distorting the arguments...

basically fighting against the laws of physics...

because you insist Kimi lost 2005 "just" because of engine reliability,
which by basic logic implies that the Renault engine was superior to Mercedes' at higher RPMs (more reliable)...
yet you don't seem to mind claiming at the exact same time
that isn't the case either...

you're one of those "rare" ones who thinks the rev limiter didn't help Mercedes... even the biggest McLaren fan (good old Mr. Smajlić) thinks it helped them...

but your response to everything is just an emoji...

the results speak for themselves...

2006 was the last year we had a massive amount of "engineering freedom,"
and we saw exactly how all that combined looked on track.

Back in 2006, Renault had plenty of engineering freedom to build a great car for 2007, so look at what they actually produced—though that applies to this season too, provided you account for the fact that the season hasn't even warmed up yet.

It’s not true that I disagree with the idea that Mercedes engines struggle at higher RPMs; that's just a straight-up fact.

I'm using emojis because, frankly, you're being ridiculous; it's hard to have a real conversation about racing when you mention Renault or Alonso in every single post, much like how you immediately compared Mercedes to Renault earlier in this thread.

No hard feelings.
Respect.👍

Arthur Doyle70 said:Back in 2006, Renault had an incredible amount of engineering freedom to build a solid chassis for 2007, and look what they produced; naturally, that logic applies to this season too, though granted, the season hasn't even truly warmed up yet.

It isn't true that I disagree with the assertion that Mercedes' engines struggle at higher RPMs, because that is simply an established fact and stands on its own.

I am calling out Smajlić because you are being quite ridiculous, honestly, since how can we engage in any meaningful discussion about racing when you manage to mention Renault or Alonso in almost every single post; if you even look upward in your own message, you immediately compared Mercedes to Renault.

No hard feelings
respect👍

They didn't have enough freedom because they lacked experience with those tires...

The best way to handle this is to actually race and then engineer the solutions.

Perhaps the issues during 2006 were mitigated, so it might not be a problem for them now.
And perhaps there was also an issue regarding Kimi's driving style...

I have my reasons to believe that Renault will close the gap... and I also have my reasons to believe that
McM is the reason behind certain delays in development, and I intend to write that out once I find the time.

hollowhawk412 said:he didn't really have enough freedom since he hadn't worked with those tires before...

The best way to handle this stuff is just to get out there and race, then figure out the fixes on the fly.

Maybe the issues they faced back in 2006 died down enough that it wouldn't even be an issue for them now,
or maybe it was just Kimi's driving style that threw things off...

I've got my reasons for thinking Renault is closing the gap... and I've also got plenty of reasons to believe
that MCM is actually the reason they're lagging behind in certain areas, but I'll get into all that once I have a spare moment.

So you're saying it was just Renault lacking experience with those tires?

And as for everything else, come on... let's talk, because I'd love to hear what you actually think about it.

Arthur Doyle70 said:So you're telling me only Renault lacked experience with those tires?

As for anything else... well, please, do go on, I'm genuinely curious to hear what else you think you know about this.

Look... even McLaren admitted they got lucky when they made the switch to Bridgestone...
and if my memory serves me right, they were actually running Bridgestones toward the end of the nineties too.

But you see, McLaren and Renault approached their use of Michelin quite differently...
specifically regarding how they balanced the weight distribution of the cars.
Once McLaren finally switched over to Bridgestone, they were instantly half a second faster... which proves they were sitting in a much stronger position to begin with.

And here is exactly why the R28's development has been slowed down.

The espionage scandals had a tangible effect on the poor performance so far of Renault's 2008 car, according to a Spanish newspaper.

Diario AS claims that the French outfit shelved an intended suspension innovation for the new single seater, which is now estimated as the seventh or eighth slowest in the field, because of the spying controversies of 2007.

Following the furore surrounding the defection of a design engineer from McLaren, Renault bosses thought it wise to postpone its debut in 2008 pending the full clearance of the FIA.

Fernando Alonso in Bahrain confirmed that an upcoming suspension development for Barcelona is ‘similar’ to the so-called mass damper, which was banned a couple of years ago.

Renault has reportedly argued to the governing body that while the McLaren engineer brought suspension drawings with him, they were barely legible and therefore cannot be linked with the team's own suspension development.

AS quotes team boss Flavio Briatore as saying ‘certain cases’ have delayed some aspects of the R28 design.

Renault's Barcelona specification car was debuted last week at Elvington Airfield with test driver Lucas di Grassi at the wheel.

Technical director Bob Bell commented: "To say we need to improve is a bit of an understatement - we need a tidal wave of improvement to move us ahead."

hollowhawk412 said:Look... even McLaren admitted they got lucky when they switched over to Bridgestone...
and I'm pretty sure they were running Bridgestones back in the late nineties too.

But McLaren and Renault handled their Michelin setup quite differently...
specifically regarding how they distributed the car's weight...
and once they finally slapped those Bridgestones on, McLaren found half a second instantly... so they were definitely in a better spot.

Anyway, here is why the R28's development has hit a wall:

According to a Spanish newspaper, the whole espionage scandal actually took a real toll on how poorly Renault's 2008 Car has performed so far.

Diario AS claims that the French outfit shelved an intended suspension innovation for the new single seater, which is now estimated as the seventh or eighth slowest in the field, because of the spying controversies of 2007.

After all the chaos involving that designer jumping ship from McLaren, the brass at Renault decided it was safer to hold off on their 2008 debut until they got the green light from the FIA.

Fernando Alonso in Bahrain confirmed that an upcoming suspension development for Barcelona is ‘similar’ to the so-called mass damper, which was banned a couple of years ago.

Word is that Renault told the regulators that even though the McLaren engineer did walk out with suspension blueprints, they were basically illegible, so there's no way they could be tied to the team's own work.

AS quotes team boss Flavio Briatore as saying 'certain cases' have delayed some aspects of the R28 design.

Renault's Barcelona specification car was debuted last week at Elvington Airfield with test driver Lucas di Grassi at the wheel.

Technical director Bob Bell commented: "To say we need to improve is a bit of an understatement - we need a tidal wave of improvement to move us ahead."

Man... if anyone slowed down the 2008 development, it was definitely MCM, who had to freeze certain parts of the car after all that mess last year. Honestly, Renault should just be glad that the FIA doesn't apply the same standards to everyone, otherwise they would've been slapped with a massive fine for holding onto MCM data. If they'd had to pay up, their budget would've taken a hit, which would have limited their development even more. As for Alonso whining in the press... look, he's a brilliant driver, but unfortunately, he's also a bit of a theorist.

Arthur Doyle70 said:Look, my friend... if anyone actually slowed down the car's development for 2008, it was undoubtedly McLaren, who halted progress on several specific components following all that absolute nonsense from last year. Renault can only feel lucky that the FIA standards aren't applied equally across all teams, otherwise they would have been slapped with a massive fine for possessing McLaren's data. If Renault had faced a financial penalty, it would have gutted their budget and naturally restricted their ability to invest in various developmental areas, and as for Alonso’s whining in the press... the man is a phenomenal driver, but unfortunately, he's also a bit of a theoretical dreamer.

Comparing the CD gate to the floppy disk scandal is something only a McLaren fan would attempt...

The sheer gap between what was being shouted through the media outlets and what was eventually proven
is more than enough ground for a defamation lawsuit regarding the presentation of false evidence...

In the end, it turned out to be nothing more than four technical drawings that were seen by a mere three engineers...

And let's not even get started on the idea of information leaks... those drawings were essentially taken while the guy was still an engineer at McLaren before moving over to Renault...

Once he became part of the Renault team, he had absolutely no contact with McLaren...

But that's all water under the bridge now...

Here is a little something else regarding Renault

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=42288

Renault is set to introduce a number of upgrades for Alonso's home race at Catalunya later this month, but Bell said this would just be an initial step.

"To say we need to improve is an understatement - it will take a tidal wave of change, but that's what we're here to do," he said,

"We need to take the first step in Barcelona: we need to clearly demonstrate there that we've made a step forward as we start to move ourselves back towards the leading three teams and edge ourselves away from that gaggle of teams sitting just behind them.

"That's objective number one, and then by mid-season we really need to have shown that we have consolidated and we are back there on the tails of the top teams.

It is a genuine shame they didn't roll out that suspension for the first race, because having it ready for the opening three rounds
would have provided them with perfect live testing... there is simply no substitute for actual race conditions when it comes to tuning a car...

As it stands, they are always going to be playing catch-up...

It all feels a bit surreal, hollowhawk412, though I suspect Renault doesn't really stand a chance of even making it onto the podium this year, let alone fighting for a win, unless we see some incredibly chaotic race 😉. Honestly, I feel like the top six spots are pretty much set in stone, and it seems unlikely that Renault will be able to hold their own against Williams, Toyota, or perhaps even Red Bull and STR 🤷. In my estimation, Renault is currently sitting firmly in sixth place, and I’m just not sure they can suddenly leapfrog everyone else while the rest of the field stays static. Please don't take this the wrong way, because I would absolutely love to see Renault clinch a Drivers' Championship or a race victory, but I fear that just might be impossible this season
.

Arthur Doyle70 said:Back in 2006, Renault had plenty of engineering freedom to build a solid car for 2007. Look what they produced. Of course, that logic applies to this season too—though, let's be honest, the season hasn't even properly warmed up yet.

Last season, Renault really struggled, primarily because of the switch to Bridgestone. Then there's the internal issues; Giancarlo Fisichella just isn't cutting it, while Heikki Kovalainen needed way too much time to actually find his rhythm.
As for this season? In my humble opinion, the biggest culprit is the standardized ECU. Renault just can't seem to get their hands around it.

Arthur Doyle70 said:It’s not wrong to claim that Mercedes' engines struggle at higher RPMs. That is simply a fact.

Also, one of McLaren's massive advantages last year was having access to Stepney's data regarding car balance and tire setups.

F1: Alonso: "Renault is sitting in eighth!"
Ivan Ril Tuesday
Tuesday, April 2008

Fernando Alonso is opening up about his belief that Renault currently finds itself as the eighth slowest team on the Formula 1 grid.

“We aren’t just trailing behind Ferrari, McLaren, and BMW anymore. Now we’ve got Toyota, Williams, Red Bull, and Honda ahead of us,” the Spaniard told the EFE news agency.

Even though there are hints of progress on the horizon, Alonso seems pretty pessimistic, making it clear that a podium finish—something Flavio Briatore has been talking up—is likely out of reach.

“That’s just impossible, mainly because we need to find a full second per lap. I don't think any team in history has ever managed to pull that off.”

“We can hope, at least. But right now, a podium is nothing more than a fantasy, a dream,”

“What we really need to focus on is reaching the level of someone like Toyota—just getting into the second or third qualifying rounds and then fighting in the pack right behind the top three teams during the race.”

Speaking to the Spanish magazine Diario AS, the Renault engineer offered his own take on Flavio Briatore's lofty expectations.

“Those are some very ambitious goals,” he said with a laugh.

I guess this is actually the real situation here, whereas Flavio has started talking nonsense, acting like a shady promoter promising massive upgrades that never show up.🙄

It feels like Alonso is finally speaking sense again; he’s actually focused on driving rather than just running his mouth.👍

neonharbor18 said:It’s all just bizarre, hollowhawk412, though I honestly don't think Renault stands even a remote chance of making it onto the podium this year, let alone fighting for wins, unless we see some absolutely chaotic race scenario😉 . In my view, the top six spots are pretty much set in stone, and Renault is going to struggle just to keep pace with Williams and Toyota, not to mention potentially falling behind Red Bull or STR🤷. Right now, I see Renault as strictly a sixth-place team, and I find it hard to believe they can just leapfrog everyone else while the rest of the field stays stagnant; please don't take that the wrong way, because nothing would make me happier than seeing Renault clinch a Drivers' Championship or a race win, but this season, it feels impossible

Well, that is precisely what Bob Bell is talking about... there will undoubtedly be improvements coming for the Spanish Grand Prix
but then they’ll have to pivot toward refining the aerodynamics...

catching up to the leaders in terms of development will be an uphill battle—I'm thinking specifically of the top three—but they might actually be able to close the gap on Toyota, Williams, and Red Bull by the time they hit Barcelona...

if they pull that off, then anything could happen later in the season...

they should be integrating CFD technology into their workflow somewhere around mid-June...
looking at BMW's performance, that could turn out to be a very smart move...

frankly, seeing the progress BMW is making is the best news I've had all year👍

the point Pilla made regarding the ECU unit is also a distinct possibility...

anyway, we'll just have to wait and see

Look, Starks, I know you’re a die-hard Renault fan through and through, but let’s be real: there is absolutely nothing to show for them this season. It’s not like their engines are total junk—they aren't losing massive amounts of raw horsepower—but you can feel that lack of punch the second they hit an apex. They’re bleeding seconds every single time they try to carry speed through a corner. Just look at what happened when T. Glock left Alonso in the dust; he was hanging onto his tail by seven seconds, and honestly, that tells you everything you need to know about where Renault stands right now. They’ve basically vanished from the conversation. If Ferrari manages to pull off a win in Barcelona, they won't just be leading; they’ll be running a solo parade because the competition we were all promised simply isn't showing up.

Now we’re finally seeing who the real Fernando fans actually are.

Look, I’m one of them. I’ve been riding for him since his days over at Ford, and I know exactly what he’s accomplished.

Hint—two headlines.