BJJ: Mat vs. Street

http://www.realfighting.com/issue8/jorgeframe.html

I just stumbled upon this fascinating article written by a police officer regarding the fundamental differences between sport grappling and actual "street" grappling.

What are your thoughts on this?

On a related note, people who have attended Rickson Gracie's seminars often mention on various forums how clearly he demonstrates the distinction between a standard sports technique and how that exact same move would play out in a real-world scenario.
One guy even shared a story about a demonstration where Rickson was showing something pretty incredible—he tucked his hands into his belt, someone went in for a bear hug, and Rickson simply tossed him and choked him out using his legs, all while keeping his hands safely tucked under his belt the entire time. It’s also worth noting that in one interview, Rickson emphasizes that his family has been studying this for about 70 years and they cover everything, including defending against multiple attackers—like having to fight your way out of a room filled with three guys looking to jump you.

Well, obviously it’s a different ballgame! You aren't exactly going to be dropping into a high guard on a street corner like you're in a sanctioned match, and you certainly aren't going to be pulling out some obscure X-guard nonsense when things get real...

wanderingridge says:
Of course it’s different. You aren’t going to be pulling up a guard on a street corner like you’re in a sanctioned match, and you certainly aren't going to be cycling through a bunch of fancy X-guards...

Afro, I don't have any doubt about that, but let's really break this down. Let's get the gears turning and stir the pot a little—maybe someone here has some actual insight to share. I came across two stories on a forum recently:

There was this guy training BJJ who was walking through a parking lot with his wife when two guys jumped them. He knocked one out instantly, then caught the second guy in a chokehold and just wouldn't let go. He didn't react until his wife started screaming, "Let him go, you're going to kill him!" He probably thought he was just waiting for the guy to tap.

Then there was another case involving a BJJ practitioner who got jumped by two people—one had a knife, the other had a baseball bat.
He managed to take down the guy with the bat with a strike, and then applied a lever on the arm of the guy with the knife. But then things went south—in the heat of the moment, the guy panicked and started flailing wildly. The practitioner let go, took two stabs to the body, and ended up in the hospital.

Just wanted to throw that out there so we can talk!
Cheers, everyone!

p.s.
Dean and Tony, two guys from Miami, just got back from New York City. They were training with Roger Gracie and earned their belts—Tony got his blue belt and Dean got his purple (hopefully I got those details right). It looks like the BJJ "family" is growing!

Kind of a contradiction if you ask me. He messed up here because he didn't let go during the choke, then messed up there because he did!! Personally, I think he only blew it the second time by not following through. It’s not about his training; the guy just didn't want to hurt the attacker too bad, and that was his mistake.

Jeffrey Taylor49 says:
I don't think it’s about training; I think he just didn't want to seriously injure the attacker, and that was a mistake!!

Now, that is an interesting point. It makes you wonder: how much does drilling a specific skill condition us to react in one exact way, and could that very conditioning actually slow down our ability to react properly when circumstances change? To me, it feels like there is definitely a connection to training, sure, but also to the fighter's character, their current headspace, and a whole host of other factors. There is so much at play here; it’s incredibly complex.
It brings me back to that old saying, "you fight the way you train."

Brandon Lopez said:Jeffrey Taylor49 says:
I don't think it's about training. The guy just didn't want to wreck the attacker too bad, and that was his mistake.

Now we’re getting somewhere. How much does drilling one specific skill condition us to react a certain way, versus how much might actually slow down a proper reaction in the heat of the moment? Honestly, I think training matters, but so does character, mental state, and a dozen other variables. It's complicated.
It's that old saying, right? "You fight how you train."

Sure, but that really only applies to competition. If he's strictly doing BJJ, he isn't working his striking, and in both scenarios here, they landed the knockout first before going for the submission.
Fact is, what you do in training can trip you up sometimes—like tapping out. But I seriously doubt anyone's gonna tap out in a street fight and expect the other guy to let go. That's real-world experience, not just gym work.

Jeffrey Taylor49 says:
To be honest, the stuff you drill during training—like all that tapping out—can definitely get in your head. But I seriously doubt anyone would ever let someone go after they’ve been tapped out on the street. There's a massive difference between gym practice and real-world experience!!
__________________
He’s absolutely right; nobody is going to just let a guy go once he's tapped out in a real fight, but he could have finished it without that even happening! Maybe he needed that lesson, but like you pointed out, the strikes were coming first in both scenarios anyway.

http://www.geocities.com/global_trai...ort/helio2.htm

Check out this fascinating interview I found with the master himself, Helia!

I honestly believe this whole thing is just mental. He didn't set out to hurt him, plain and simple. Look, even in the UFC, guys sometimes forget to release a lever—I wouldn't go as far as calling it a lack of training, per se. My take? In those kinds of spots, you absolutely shouldn't let go of a choke until they actually start losing consciousness. Once that happens, then you can deal with the fallout. And that second situation? That’s even worse—if some guy pulls a knife on you, attacks you with a blade... man, you break every single one of his arms and you do NOT let go!

P.S. Seriously, major props on those belts! I can't speak to the second one, but I do know that Dean competed in the ADCC Europeans and made it through the first round. I even caught him sparring with Werdum at a seminar once—if we're talking about the same guy, that is.

So, a buddy of mine—barely two or three training sessions in—gets jumped by this older guy at the gym. And I mean *significantly* older, like a decade gap or something; the kid was maybe 17 and this other guy looked to be about 25. Needless to say, the older guy ended up screaming on the floor pretty damn fast once he got caught in a kimura 😬

Brandon Lopez, you into BJJ yourself? Whereabouts do you train?

But hey, didn't wanderingridge let him go too when he called out?

Jeffrey Taylor49 said:But wanderingridge, didn't he also let it go when this guy called him out?

Likely so. He was just playing deaf.🙂

Zachary Mendoza17 said:probably, but he was acting like he didn't hear a thing🙂

I don't think he finished the kimura, but if it was the same guy, he basically knocked him out the second time🙂 🙂!!

Look, he let him go, sure, but it wasn't exactly some life-or-death crisis that warranted breaking a man's arm, you know? It was just two guys who had clearly had too many drinks at the bar and decided to get all worked up over nothing. That’s just foolishness. It's a completely different story when someone is actually pulling a knife on you or making real threats.

Jeffrey Taylor49 said:I don't think the guy actually locked in the kimura, but he definitely knocked him out on that second attempt, assuming it was even the same dude 🙂🙂!!

No way, man. As soon as he let go, the guy just went limp. He totally knocked out the other guy 😬

He made a massive mistake by not breaking that guy's arm right then and there. Look, I’m not exactly an advocate for violence, but if someone pulls a knife on you during a roadside confrontation, they clearly aren't looking for a friendly chat.

Biggest difference between the ring and the street? Rules. In the UFC, you’ve got them. On the street, you don't. Plus, in a sport, you aren't really hitting to kill or finishing a technique to the absolute limit—unless it's some crazy full-contact madness. On the street, you go all out before they can get to you. There’s no mercy there. A lot of the stuff we drill in training is basically useless in a real scrap, but hey, it helps you master the moves that actually matter. Honestly, you shouldn't be trying fancy combos on the street anyway; just use what you need to end the fight quickly.

The ref probably assumed he could just back off and the guy would quit on his own, which is pure delusion; if anything, he should have stripped him of the knife before even thinking about stepping in, though personally, I wouldn't have touched the situation at all.

unnamed kaže:
Brandon Lopez, do you do any unnamed training? Where at?

Yeah, I train. I’m over in Miami at the only unnamed gym in town. I heard Dean and Tony are opening up a new spot this fall, so things should get pretty interesting around here soon.
The gym I go to was started by that guy Rodolfo from Argentina, but he's actually out in Iraq now.