Self-Defense

Jason Fox2 said:This is it. This is the whole point. I’m a former judoka, easily over 220 pounds, and I agree with everything here. Knock someone out, smash their head into a table, a pole, or the floor—that can turn into a nightmare fast. A broken nose or a fractured finger qualifies as serious bodily injury, which triggers a felony charge rather than just a misdemeanor. Sure, defending yourself using only chokes or throws is tough when you're swarmed by three or four thugs, but in that scenario, running is your best bet anyway.

Another advantage of ground fighting is that there’s no such thing as a "lucky submission" the way there is a lucky punch.

Aside from those elementary school "sleeper holds," most people have no clue what to do. It’s completely unintuitive if you haven't trained on the ground. To me, once a grappler actually gets their hands on an opponent, the outcome is pretty much decided.

Most people will just flail their arms around while standing up, constantly risking a freak accident or a nasty bruise from a stray strike.

In my opinion, you shouldn't obsess over extreme scenarios when talking about self-defense. If someone is actually trying to kill you by jumping you from behind with a knife or a club, no amount of martial arts is going to save you. That classic American saying, "Better to take twelve hits than to be carried out by six," is pure fantasy. Most boxing matches end in a fatality or a debilitating injury due to mistakes, and if it isn't a sanctioned fight, people just pull weapons with malicious intent. At that point, your training becomes a moot point; it's a false dilemma.

Then again, you can usually avoid these situations entirely unless you're a police officer whose job requires engaging in conflict. And even then, you want the ability to control the situation without someone ending up in the ICU.

Brian Alvarez34 said:When it comes to those 3-on-3 or 5-on-5 street scraps involving wrestling or Jiu Jitsu, I don't think that's the smartest way to go. Stick to boxing or kickboxing techniques; they're much more reliable.

I was actually there with my friend when we got jumped early in the morning at Union Station on the day of the big rivalry game. Honestly, we were incredibly naive. To be fair, they weren't looking for a massive brawl or anything particularly intense—I’m probably 20 years older than them, and my buddy was maybe 16 or 17, which is likely how old they were too. They just wanted his shirt. I tried to grab it back after handing it over, and then things escalated. Two of them jumped him, and two jumped me. One guy just stood there watching while the rest of us were wrestling and tugging at clothes like kids. Then someone from a nearby corner store shouted, "Hey, leave him alone! It's 2-on-1, just run!" My friend lost a pair of expensive sunglasses in the mess, and I ended up face-planting in the park on a damp 50-degree morning. We eventually limped over to some half-empty cafe near the market, hoping we wouldn't run into them again. My head was pounding, and I definitely took a hard hit against the pavement.

We had another friend with us from the same year, but he's a huge guy who actually knows how to scrap—he used to train amateur MMA privately with his brother. If he'd been there, they probably would have brought even more people since word had already spread on the bus that we were arriving. He would have shut them down, and honestly, we were carrying a nearly full bottle of whiskey that could have easily become a weapon.

That guy and one other from my group are both in the military now. Their actual fight happened back in elementary school, maybe fourth or fifth grade. I'm not sure if anyone ever recorded it. If smartphones and the internet had been around back then, there would have been millions of clips of it on YouTube. Now, it's just something about ten of us who were there talk about, almost two decades later.

There was even an older kid, maybe in eighth grade, acting as the referee. They went through about 8 or 9 bloody rounds of free-for-all fighting before the loser was shoved into a drainage ditch by the local playground and pounded on the back five or six times. There was talk of a rematch, with that referee—who happens to be the loser's neighbor—promising to train him up, but it never happened.

We were split into different classes from fifth to eighth grade. I have no idea if those two guys ever spoke again or what their relationship is like today, especially since they've both built successful lives and live in completely different states.

Fan groups are definitely one of those messy subcultures you want to stay far away from, right along with those sketchy dive bars and hole-in-the-wall joints. 😁

I’ll concede that grapplers have the upper hand—but strictly in a one-on-one scenario. If I’m forced into a situation where there are more than one of them, I have zero interest in hitting the mat. It’s either my legs carry me out of there, or I take down the first guy to make everyone else think twice before jumping in. I had a run-in like this back in middle school—it was a lifetime ago, obviously—but even then, I knew the stakes. If I had gone after him, there was a very real chance the rest of them would have swarmed me, either piling on or just beating me senseless with whatever sticks they could find.

bluemason3 said:One advantage of ground fighting is that there isn't really a "lucky lever" like there is a lucky punch.

Aside from some basic elementary school tie-up moves, it’s pretty much a wasteland if you haven't trained on the ground. It seems to me that once a grappler actually gets their hands on someone, the outcome is almost a foregone conclusion.

Everyone else just ends up flailing around wildly, always risking getting caught by some accidental strike or a clumsy mishap while standing up.

In my opinion, if you're looking at actual self-defense, you shouldn't get too hung up on extreme scenarios. Besides, if someone is truly out to kill you—ambushing you from behind with a knife or a club—no amount of kung fu is going to save you. That whole American mindset of "better to take 12 hits than to be carried off by 6" is pure fantasy. Most boxing matches end in a knockout or a serious injury due to an error, and if it isn't a boxing match, people pull weapons with malicious intent anyway. It's a false dilemma.

Then again, those real-world situations can usually be avoided unless you're a cop, where seeking out conflict is part of the job. And even then, you want the ability to de-escalate without someone ending up in the ICU.

Hmm, on the other hand, what if there's a massive deficit in physical strength and size? I don't have experience with wrestling (in the broad sense, including Judo), but it seems logical to me that size matters more there than in striking.

But then again, even in striking, if you're significantly smaller, it's hard to develop real KO power.

Anyway, let's not fight, folks. 🤣

Peter Barnes said:I agree ground fighters have the edge, but strictly in a one-on-one scenario. If I’m facing a group, I’m not looking to go to the mat. Either my legs carry me away, or I try to take down the first guy to distract the rest. I had that mindset back in middle school. It’s long gone. But if I had tried to wrestle someone in a crowd, I probably would've ended up getting jumped by the others or beaten down with whatever they were holding.

In anything more than a 1v1, nobody really has an advantage—unless things get chaotic and you somehow manage to isolate opponents one by one and get lucky with quick knockouts. I know there are videos online showing that happening, but I doubt it's a reliable tactic. If a group is coordinated and swarms you from multiple angles, no amount of martial arts is going to save you.

There are millions of channels on YouTube, Twitter, or Instagram now, just endless shorts from all over the world—schoolyards, street corners, parking lots, clubs, restaurants, it doesn't matter. But there’s one universal constant: when that "dark moment" hits and they start swinging wildly, nobody gives a damn about the other guy. Whether someone takes a headbutt to the edge of a table or gets slammed face-first into the asphalt, in that split second, their only concern is the pain they're feeling. Self-control is non-existent.

But if things end badly... well, your life is basically over, isn't it?
So go ahead, train as much as you want, my friend... 😁

Considering how many solid, heavy strikes Hrga took this weekend, do you really think he'll be fine by age 45? He isn't even acting sane, given what he said at the end of the fight 😁

At least he makes decent money doing it. What do these guys out on the streets make? Who’s going to pay your bills when you show up at Rebro completely broken, hoping for help? 😁

The people who actually used their heads managed to dodge the fight altogether.😬

Exactly. Unless you’re getting paid a massive premium, jumping into a brawl is just plain stupid. The best-case scenario is being nowhere near the mess to begin with—that way, you aren't injured and you don't end up in handcuffs. It can only go downhill from there. Unless it’s literally your job—like a pro athlete, a bodyguard, a cop, or a debt collector—there is zero upside.

Thomas Morales8 said:who’s going to foot the bill when you show up all banged up at Rebro needing help? 😁

Just to provide a bit of education here,
in these instances, the Social Security Administration covers the initial medical costs. They then turn around and seek reimbursement from the liable party based on the police report and the court ruling (even a misdemeanor charge counts if the report states you landed a punch). If the responsible person refuses to pay, a lawsuit follows—which is almost always successful—leading eventually to wage garnishment.

A minor injury might run you about 200-$167 in costs.
A broken hand could be 10-15 $0.00,
a broken fibula is 10-15 $0.00.
Hitting your head against concrete? That’s 100 $0.00 or more.
Plus interest, of course.

If you aren't lucky, you can certainly end up paying dearly.
People, please, don't fight. 🙂

I honestly can't figure out why every single thread on this forum gets taken the wrong way; first off, I didn't even start this topic, the moderator did, and secondly absolutely
nobody—and I mean nobody—has suggested training just so they can go out and pick fights ... rather, in this day and age, having a grasp of basic techniques and self-defense can
be a genuine asset, especially thinking back to middle and high school when there were so many bullies who would just sucker-punch you in the face out of nowhere or trip you up,
along with all those various daily provocations.

As far as street fights go, they’re pretty rare, though in my part of ZD there are certain neighborhoods and bars where scuffles are somewhat common, though I've never
had any trouble in a bar myself; I had one instance a long, long time ago where some guy in a nightclub headbutted me because I was talking to a woman... but that was years ago
and it's been years since I've dealt with any issues, aside from what I mentioned at the beginning about early this summer, where some guy was getting right in my face and threatening to beat me up, and I had to
react because he actually lunged at me, and I had the confidence and guts to handle it because I knew my cousins were tough, and mine were boxers, so they
trained me.

If someone were to attack me outside, I’d much rather use a judo throw on them than just swing a punch, mainly because slamming someone's head into the pavement or a table could
mess them up for the rest of their life.

The subject here is self-defense, not street brawling, for heaven's sake, 🤦which is something I avoid and despise my whole life, but there are situations where you find yourself backed
into a corner and you simply have to defend yourself.

bluemason3 said:It’s the same story. Back in elementary school, you had all those macho hierarchies and people picking on others for being religious, but most kids outgrow that by the end of middle school. I barely saw any of that once high school hit. Honestly, by the time you're old enough to actually cause real trouble, you should have outgrown the need to prove yourself through such monkey bullshit. 🤷Though it really depends on the environment. Apparently, there was more of that in vocational schools, and if that's the crowd you're hanging with, it’s harder to go against the grain. Just how it goes.

The "tough guy" crowd that keeps pumping up their egos even after puberty is just a bunch of socially and intellectually stunted losers from the bottom of the urban gutter. You don't want anything to do with them; they'll only drag you down into their nonsense. 😳

Based on the footage, I wouldn't necessarily assume there's more of this happening today.

Auu, when Crow reads this, he and the Stenjevec crew are going to have some very different opinions. 🐔

Double

John Booth said:Just a little bit of education here...
In these scenarios, the Social Security Administration covers the medical bills initially. They then go after the liable party based on police reports and court rulings—even a misdemeanor counts if the report says you slapped someone's face. If the responsible person refuses to pay, a lawsuit follows, which is almost always successful, leading directly to wage garnishment.

A minor injury might run about 200-$167 dollars.
A broken hand? Maybe 10-15 $0.00 thousand...
A fractured fibula? 10-15 $0.00 thousand.
Hitting your head on concrete? That's easily 100 $0.00 thousand plus.
+ interest, obviously.

If you're unlucky, you could end up paying through the nose.
People, please, stop fighting. 🙂

That all sounds plausible, but I highly doubt some guy who just knocked me out is going to hang around waiting for the cops to arrive just so I can file a report and sue him later... 😁

The numbers seem right. I once broke both bones in my leg—my own fault, unfortunately... 😁 and the bill ended up being around 12 $0.00 (Rebro)
...

wanderingpanther68 said:I honestly don't get why everything on this forum gets taken the wrong way. First off, I didn't start this thread, the moderator did. Second, absolutely
nobody said they train just to go out and pick fights ... In this day and age, having some basic technique and knowing how to defend yourself is just
a bonus. High school was a different story; there were plenty of bullies back then who’d just sucker-punch you or trip you for no reason
or various other daily provocations.

Street fights are rare. Even here in ZD, there are certain neighborhoods and bars where scraps happen often, though I've never
had trouble in a bar. Once, a long time ago, some guy in a nightclub headbutted me because I was talking to a woman... but that was years ago.
It's been years since I've had any issues, except for what I mentioned at the start of summer. A guy got in my face, threatening to beat me up, and I had to
act because he lunged at me. I had the confidence to handle it because I knew my cousins were tough; mine were boxers, so they
trained me.

If someone actually attacks me outside, I'd rather hit them with a judo throw than try to punch them and risk them cracking their skull on the pavement or a table and
messing them up for life.

The topic is self-defense, not street fighting, for heaven's sake. 🤦I avoid that stuff my whole life and hate it, but sometimes you're backed
into a corner and you have to defend yourself.

Buduci started the debate from your post, so when it comes to splitting off a new thread, he's the one to do it. There isn't really another way.

Sorry if it felt like we were picking on you; that wasn't the intent. I think the discussion just drifted into more general territory.

My apologies if you felt targeted there. Your question was perfectly valid, but unfortunately, the conversation started spiraling toward a "who's bigger" debate, so bluemason3 and I stepped in to steer things back to the actual topic.

bluemason3 said:You also gotta think about the flooring when you're doing kicks outside the gym...

And don't forget what you've got on you—like, if you've got a phone in your pocket, or car keys, or a wallet... it totally changes things... 😁

I certainly agree... it is quite fascinating how discussions like this always seem to veer off course. 🤔

In my capacity as a coach, I frequently encounter similar inquiries—from parents, students, and the merely curious alike.
There is also a certain crowd that regularly sends me these absurd videos, asking for my professional take, or simply insisting that one specific style is superior to another, regardless of the terminology used.
The sheer level of superficiality and lack of logical reasoning is staggering, to say nothing of the complete misunderstanding of the subject matter.

Yet, when it comes time to actually put in the work—say, when I call them for a session or invite them to a colleague's local gym, for instance—they are nowhere to be found.
Suddenly, everyone is far too busy studying or managing some urgent, unavoidable obligation.
🤦

One would assume that having everything at their fingertips would encourage people to observe more closely and think critically... especially since the era of mystique surrounding certain skills and the eccentric characters who once inhabited the obscure world of martial arts has long passed.
One might hope that reality would breed quality... however, as time goes on, I am increasingly convinced that won't happen.

They are still peddling knife defense, self-defense for women, black belts for kids, tactical courses for adults... and so on.
Meh.

This is how it should look on the street later

https://twitter.com/DovySimuMMA/stat...JApj2xaQg&s=19

There are plenty of them out there... whether they are staged or not, they do a decent job of demonstrating specific combat principles in street scenarios.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rA3...annel=SNEVINMC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCXm...nel=MickyMicky

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk_o...TopMotionClips

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hRh...iteBeltCentral

And so on...
☕

I skipped the rest and went straight to the next video, where this boxer isn't actually protecting his girlfriend—he just can't stomach seeing some lowlife mess with her, so he waits until everything is already over before stepping in to start swinging.
That’s not self-defense, and it sure as hell isn't what martial arts are about. It's just pure lack of self-control and a massive ego problem; honestly, that's the exact thing any decent coach in the States teaches kids from day one when they start training. If my daughter were in that situation, I'd tell her to run for the hills to get away from a guy like that, because his inability to act sooner basically left them both wide open to getting absolutely wrecked.

The first two clips are just unnecessary drama that could have been skipped entirely. Looking at the first video, I can't even tell if hitting the girl was accidental or intentional—unless this is all staged. Either way, she wasn't knocked out and was perfectly capable of walking, so there was really no reason to dwell on them. The second one is even worse; it’s just childish provocation followed by an even more childish reaction.

As for the third clip, without knowing the context, it looks like a textbook example of picking the wrong crowd and going to the wrong place.

Same goes for the last one; I don't have the backstory there.

Unless you're in a situation where someone is actively trying to assault you, how many times is a conflict truly unavoidable? 🤷 About 90% of the time, it happens because someone is hanging out with a toxic group in an unhealthy environment, and it starts with some petty provocation. I haven't heard of anyone picking a fight with a stranger out of nowhere at a classical music concert.

Plus, the more you react physically, the worse things look for you in court later on.

If I were designing the perfect weekend self-defense course, it would be 50% lectures on legalities and courtroom practice, and 50% pepper spray—focusing on tactics and limitations. It offers the lowest legal risk, requires minimal training, doesn't depend on your physical build, and is highly effective despite its obvious constraints.

Twice in my life, when dealing with business disputes involving low-level thugs who aren't afraid of a physical scrap, I carried pepper spray. I did carry a knife, too, but let's be honest: that's a terrible option. More importantly, you shouldn't be anywhere near those people outside of government buildings. There's little chance someone will hunt you down for an attack or cause a scene in a crowded grocery store. If you aren't a criminal and you have a solid standing in court, there's zero reason to make things worse by biting on a provocation. One guy actually tried to bait me into a fight to muddy the waters since we had a pending legal matter, but luckily, it never actually came to blows.

Self-defense isn't about winning a fight. Self-defense is exiting a situation with the least amount of physical and legal damage possible. Usually, the best way to do that is by avoiding the conflict altogether.

If avoidance is impossible, it’s much better to use something as a first line of defense that provides distance, has high stopping power (say, 70-80%), and carries low legal and medical risk. Only if that isn't viable—like in a specific environment or against an aggressive opponent who has already been hit with spray—does a secondary option make sense.

From what I've seen in my own life and among people close to me, I can't think of a single instance where a conflict wasn't avoided at the start or could have been prevented, provided the person actually wanted to avoid it. Of course, I realize there are exceptions and not every situation is the same.