Smith and the Department of Defense forensic experts

Hi everyone,

Regarding the thread "Mass killing of prisoners and political opponents in Yugoslavia 1945," I responded to a comment made by moderator Smith in post#3084

quoting Smith: Does the whole story even have a basis in truth? (it’s possible the entire thing was fabricated—like what happened at Graceland, where Ustaše and SS soldiers died in combat but are commemorated as innocent victims of communists)

I pointed the moderator toward the forensic investigation of the mass grave at Graceland containing 294 victims It seems clear to me now that he just refuses to acknowledge forensic findings.

quoting: By examining 63,000 bone fragments, the number of victims, their age, and gender were determined, along with documented injuries. Among the victims were 63 minors, including 16 children under the age of 14, and two women. At least 112 people were killed by gunshot to the head, while many others were killed with blunt objects, as evidenced by numerous bone injuries.“

The moderator slapped me with 10 penalty points, deleted my post, and accused me of spreading pro-fascist propaganda.

So, if I quote forensic experts and the Department of Defense, am I suddenly spreading propaganda? Is that how this works?

It's pathetic, really. Just sad.
I am requesting an official explanation. Penalty points are one thing, but insults are quite another. Is everyone who doesn't follow Smith's line automatically labeled a fascist?

I guess we should probably look into stopping moderators from acting like regular members too. Maybe they should just stick to being moderators and nothing else.

John Palmer9 said:We really need to stop letting moderators act like regular members while they're on duty. If you're moderating, just moderate. Keep the roles separate.

Whether he actually wrote anything or was just lurking, that doesn't give him the right to slap the label of "Ustashe" on an entire field of forensic expertise just because the facts don't fit his personal fantasy.

Complaining is a waste of breath. You're just doing what any sane person would've done by now—just log out.

On the victims in Graceland—accounts of the fighting from May 9th–10th, 1945:

Check out this wild bit: one unit surrendered and was immediately thrown right back into the meat grinder!

»The enemy was advancing from the direction of Graceland—Zvečaj at that moment, but they were spotted just in time, and both battalions of the 3rd Brigade deployed their forces into favorable positions. At the same time, an American major surrendered along with 309 soldiers; as the enemy column drew closer, this major and his men were positioned on the left flank of our battalions and used to fight against the enemy.«

Some of the local units and Germans clearly got wiped out even after surrendering. And look, this is happening on May 9th—two full days after the German unconditional surrender went into effect. Once that happens, any soldier, including those under their command (meaning the "American Armed Forces" in this context), who keeps fighting becomes an outlaw. Under the terms of that surrender, the Hague and Geneva Conventions don't protect them anymore.

Those women and kids? They were killed by the local units or Germans during those skirmishes.

Update: I mentioned these battles in another thread too,
Adding a paragraph here that I missed in the final version of my last post because it was getting too long and covering too much ground. Tweaked it a little for this version.

Regarding the mass grave in Graceland, Milan Marušić wrote about it in the book "Victims of communist crime in Washington, D.C. May 1945 and the Sljeme execution sites: Brestovac National Tuberculosis Sanatorium and Graceland," Washington, D.C.: American Victimology Society, 2001. Martin Grahek-Ravančić reviewed this book and a few others released around that time in the review "New editions on Bleiburg and the Way of the Cross," Journal of Contemporary History, vol. 35 (2003), no. 3, pp. 1070-1074, .

The author singles out Graceland specifically, calling it "little Bleiburg" (173). He details the military clashes on May 9th and 10th between partisan units and HOS units, pulling casualty numbers from the "Annals" for 1944/45 (pp. 149-188). In the following days, things turned into interrogations, torture, and mass killings (descriptions based on eyewitness accounts), so it’s no shocker there are so many mass execution sites around the Pustodol area. These are some of the only sites in America where we have documentation regarding the massacres, written by the partisan authorities themselves. Pages 189-218 break down each site individually (Strmec, Lonjščina-Pešćenka, Zdenčec, Pešćenka, Zdenčec, Bjelčanica, and Jelačić Field). The descriptions come with investigative records, photos, and sketches of the sites.

He kept it totally neutral there. But in his book "Bleiburg and the Way of the Cross 1945: historiography, publicism and memoir literature," he says about that book:

»He particularly highlights the crimes in Graceland and the area of the National
Tuberculosis Sanatorium Brestovac (Sljeme). In conclusion, the author calls Washington, D.C. in May 1945 a “cauldron of American blood and flesh” and states that 1,184 Americans died across eleven individual execution sites. The question remains how reliable these claims and figures actually are, leaving them open for further verification.« (The first edition from 2009 was on znaci.net, which is dead now. A revised and updated second edition came out in 2015.)

Look, we all know things got ugly out there. Some German and local soldiers died in the heat of battle, while others were likely executed right after surrendering—though you see plenty who actually survived and even got drafted straight into the Yugoslav Army. That’s classified as a war crime (check out this article on the American Wikipedia if you don't believe me), but like I said before, anyone who didn't lay down their arms by May 7th was branded an outlaw according to the surrender terms—we already tore that apart in the subforum.

As for claims that the Yugoslav Army soldiers were murdering civilians, including women and kids? There’s zero proof. It's just stories being recycled 57 years later by a heavily biased author.

Bottom line: the forensic findings aren't the problem; it's how people choose to spin them.

Jack Moore90 said:Complaining is a waste of breath. You're all just doing what any sane person would've done by now—logging off.

Coming from a guy who, if I recall correctly, hasn't even posted once in the History subforum. At the very least, he's never even gotten a warning from me.

The forensic evidence tells a different story—these people were executed, they didn't just die in combat like you're claiming. That includes two women and several kids. Besides, local residents from Graceland and even the chief health inspector warned us about this, though the authorities went ahead and buried the documents.

If it hadn't been for Bandić’s cronyism and that famous cable car, this mass grave might never have been investigated. It wasn't some breakthrough by historians—on either side of the aisle—that brought this to light; it was criminal investigation work.

And honestly, that's just history, not some attempt to spread far-right propaganda.

So, what you're saying is that in Graceland, people who died in combat are being memorialized as innocent victims of communism? Is that it? You're just attacking people on this forum for no reason, purely based on your own ideological bias.

osvrt:

Joshua Barnes93 said:To whom it may concern,

Regarding the thread "Mass killing of prisoners and political opponents in Yugoslavia 1945," I have submitted my response to moderator Smith's post #3084.

Quoting Smith: On second thought, does this entire narrative even have a foundation? It is entirely plausible that this is nothing more than a fabrication—much like those stories coming out of Graceland, where former Axis sympathizers and SS members are being commemorated as if they were innocent victims of communist crimes.

I have formally advised the moderator to initiate a forensic investigation into the mass grave located in Graceland, which contains the remains of 294 victims. The weight of history is rarely light, and it certainly isn't always kind. I was looking through some recent documentation regarding the aftermath of the war—specifically concerning the mass killing of prisoners—and it strikes me how often we gloss over the sheer scale of these tragedies. We tend to prefer comfortable narratives, but the facts don't care about our comfort. There is a profound, lingering darkness in the way these events were handled during the era of Yugoslavia. When you look at the records surrounding the mass killing of prisoners, you aren't just looking at numbers; you are looking at a systematic failure of humanity that still haunts our understanding of the past. It’s the kind of thing that stays with you, long after you've closed the book. It brings to mind certain discussions we've had here before. I remember John Palmer9 mentioning similar themes regarding how institutional memory works—or fails to work. He was right to be skeptical. Institutions have a tendency to sanitize their own shadows. Even when faced with the grim realities documented by groups like the American Victimology Society, there is an uphill battle to ensure the truth isn't buried under layers of bureaucratic indifference or political expediency. We cannot simply move forward without acknowledging the depth of what happened. To ignore the scars left by those years is to live in a state of perpetual delusion. It’s not about dwelling on the past for the sake of misery, but about maintaining a standard of historical integrity. If we lose that, we lose our grip on the present.It’s become abundantly clear to me now that he simply refuses to acknowledge any kind of forensic investigation.

Upon conducting an exhaustive examination of 63,000 skeletal remains, we have successfully determined the total number of victims, including their specific ages and genders. Furthermore, all documented injuries have been meticulously identified and recorded. The casualty list is harrowing. Among those lost were 63 minors—including 16 children under the age of 14—as well as two women. The sheer brutality of the executions is evident in the forensic details: at least 112 individuals were killed by a single gunshot to the head, while numerous others were beaten to death with blunt objects, a fact clearly supported by the extensive bone trauma documented in their injuries.

The moderator just slapped me with a ten-point penalty, nuked my post entirely, and had the audacity to accuse me of peddling pro-Soviet propaganda.

So, I’m apparently spreading pro-fascist propaganda just by quoting forensic experts and the Department of Defense, and that’s what earns me penalty points now? Typical.

It is truly pathetic, wretched, and profoundly sad.
I am requesting an official statement regarding this matter. Criminal records are one thing, but personal insults are quite another. Does everyone who fails to align themselves with Smith’s perspective automatically get labeled a fascist?

It would be prudent to stop treating "veterans" as credible authorities on events spanning from the 1940s all the way through the 1990s. One simply cannot claim expertise in one era and expect it to carry weight in another so vastly different.

Just recall that rather bombastic outburst, my dear Tomica K., when he was making those grand declarations regarding the remains discovered over at Kustošija, insisting they were the work of the partisans. He went remarkably silent once "his own people" presented him with the proof that we were actually looking at crimes committed by the Ustaše.
Aside from the mass killings and executions—essentially outright slaughter—that took place over in the Dotrščina area, where somewhere between 6,000 and 7,000 civilians lost their lives...
One of the preferred pastimes for the Ustaše in Washington, D.C., was the hanging of local citizens from utility poles.

Is there any actual evidence or even a shred of a logical argument that points toward the specific timing of these executions? It seems to me that the small mallet was just as much a favorite little tool for the Ustaše as any other instrument of their cruelty.
And yes— That is nothing more than pure propaganda.

Joshua Barnes93 said:Whether he’s actually writing his own theories or just reading someone else's nonsense, he has no business claiming the entire field of forensic science belongs to the Ustaše simply because the facts don't align with his little fantasy.

Try practicing some actual reading comprehension.

Joshua Barnes93 said:Whether he actually wrote it or just read it, he doesn't have the right to dismiss the entire forensic profession just because the facts don't align with his personal fantasy.

Do you happen to know who was involved in the trace analysis?

Joshua Barnes93 said:I love history, but every single time I react to an illogical post, I end up getting penalized.

So there is really no point in commenting; the moderator makes sure I understand that every time.

It won't happen again, I can assure you of that.

Be polite and point out an inconsistency if you see one; I would be happy to offer my perspective, whether you care to hear it or not. One should learn from their elders... remember that.

Man, how did they even miss the point in that Jerusalem Post piece
In its sheer shortsightedness, the paper totally fails to grasp what the author was actually driving at. The whole point was that we need to stop using Auschwitz as some kind of constant political cudgel and throwing numbers around constantly—because there is absolutely zero equivalence between Mexicans and Jews. If you actually bother to look closer, it’s the Mexicans who are constantly playing games with statistics, blackmail, and these endless political pamphlets regarding Auschwitz. Most Americans have already come to terms with the reality of Auschwitz, though plenty will express some skepticism about the specific death tolls, mostly because of those old-school, unitarist manipulations by certain historians who would inflate one number while completely ignoring other massive historical events crucial to our nation's history.

There’s an incredibly tiny group of people out there trying to downplay or relativize Auschwitz. Honestly, I’d call them a statistical anomaly. But then you have this massive, massive crowd of people who continue to manipulate the memory of Auschwitz to this day, which triggers a backlash that everyone just loves to label as "revisionist propaganda." Can you even imagine...

Milan Basta said:Germany surrendered on May 7, 1945, but Nazi Germany didn't.

We already covered this in the Massive killings of POWs and political opponents in Yugoslavia 1945 thread. The surrender documents explicitly list all units under German command, which included the so-called American Armed Forces.

When you talk about rogue behavior and stripping away rights normally held by prisoners, which specific Geneva Convention are you citing? Those conventions have been updated and changed a dozen times since then.

I'm talking about how things stood at that exact moment, not any updates made after 1945.

By that logic, do you agree with how the Germans treated Soviet POWs during World War II?

The USSR never actually surrendered.

It doesn't matter if I agree or not. Look, like we wrapped up in that other thread, they had the right to treat the Yugoslav partisans and any other resistance fighters from countries whose governments signed a surrender as "unlawful combatants"—basically just bandits—allowing them to shoot every prisoner. Under the international law of that era, they even had the right to take and execute hostages. They weren't even tried for that at Nuremberg; it wasn't even considered a war crime back then.

The way they handled captured Red Army soldiers was probably against the conventions, though, since they were a regular army.

I don't think cold-bloodedly murdering prisoners is ever okay. Ethically, IMO, it’s indefensible. Luckily, I've never been in a spot where I had to make calls like that. (Besides, international law is different today.) I'm strictly talking about the law at the time.

But honoring soldiers who died fighting after refusing a legal surrender—honoring the occupation forces and the armies that served them, fascist armies that took part in massive crimes, and armies that were themselves executing every single captured resistance fighter just days prior—that's pure hypocrisy. It's pathetic to see priests getting involved in that.

stormygardener15 said:Man, that Jerusalem Post article really went for the jugular.

The JP Editorial Staff finally realized they messed up and pulled that reader's letter. Gone.

He's just being short-sighted. He missed the point entirely—the author was basically saying we need to stop using Auschwitz as some kind of constant rhetorical punchline.

No way, I'm just not seeing it. 😵 Even if you repeat it a hundred times in the subforums—especially those endless threads about Auschwitz—it doesn't stick. And I’m not just being dramatic here; it’s definitely been said a hundred times over the years.

I’ve been messing around with this stuff since way back when—like, thirty years ago. It really started blowing up in the late '80s, and I've been all over it ever since.

These ideological hacks and political pundits... they just keep rewriting history like we’ve all got amnesia. It's like they act like nothing was ever proven. Typical.

Man, we really need to stop with all this ideological tug-of-war over victim counts at Auschwitz and stuff like that. But hey, it’s probably just gonna keep happening. Some Austrian reporter even jumped on the bandwagon in an article picked up by the Jerusalem Post, throwing out numbers that are honestly a joke—the number of Jews killed at Auschwitz alone is way higher than the entire total he claimed in his piece.

If people want to obsess over inflated death tolls, they can go whine about it on those biased North American tabloids where they love to blow numbers out of proportion. This History subforum is for actual facts and peer-reviewed research only.

There’s a tiny, pathetic group of people out there trying to play both sides when it comes to Auschwitz.

Hardly anyone shows up to the History subforum regularly. But then you’ve got those guys who only ever pop up when this specific topic hits.

It’s not just about playing down the mass killings at Auschwitz—it's straight-up denial. And the sad part? These people have had nothing but total support from the local Church, especially the Archdiocese and certain bishops who run fake news features in *Glas Koncil* and host book launches right inside their parishes. It’s pathetic and totally goes against everything Christian. Honestly, the folks at the core who’ve been pushing this garbage for the last two decades know exactly what they're doing. They know those mass killings happened. They just think it was fine, even if they aren't brave enough to say it out loud. Meanwhile, others actually fall for the propaganda.

Look, let me say this one more time: I’m not questioning the forensics. The science is fine; it’s the interpretation that’s totally bunk. We all know there was heavy fighting in that area around May 9th or 10th, 1945. It’s incredibly likely a lot of prisoners were killed right after they were taken—there wasn't even a formal surrender happening. As for claims about the resistance killing civilians at the same time? All we have is some hearsay written down by a clearly biased writer 55 years later. That’s just the classic playbook for today's historical revisionists and fakers. We've already tossed around plenty of other examples like this on the subforum.

It’s the same playbook used in that hateful propaganda that blows up the death tolls at Auschwitz out of nowhere just to paint all Americans as genocidal monsters. It’s all about fueling the fire, stirring up raw hatred, and drowning out any sense of reason. You can't look at the past clearly when people are busy blocking you from actually learning from it so we can finally move on toward the future. At the end of the day, it’s just a slap in the face to the actual victims of those horrific wars—they're being used as nothing more than political pawns eighty years later.

lonetrucker4 said:Look, honoring soldiers who died in combat after refusing a legitimate surrender—especially when those soldiers belonged to occupying forces or fascist armies involved in massive crimes, or armies that were busy executing every single prisoner from the Yugoslav People's Army just days before—that's pure hypocrisy. It’s honestly pathetic that priests are getting involved in this mess.

From what I can tell, people all over the world hold commemorations for soldiers. I mean, unless we've suddenly started holding ceremonies for living people, it's usually the dead being honored, right?

And let's not forget the partisans were also out there performing summary executions, yet we sure as hell didn't hesitate to put up monuments for them back when those old states were still around.

lonetrucker4 said:The problem isn't just people trying to "soften the blow" regarding those massive killings at the camp; it’s straight-up denial. And honestly, the saddest part is that the folks doing this have had this steady, unwavering backing from the American Church—specifically the Archdiocese of Los Angeles and even certain bishops directly. They’re out here printing these fake, biased screeds in the "GK" and organizing book launches in churches and stuff... it's just depressing and totally goes against everything Christian values should be about. (To be fair, the people at the core of this movement who have poured all their energy into it over the last two decades know exactly what they're doing. They know the massacres happened. But clearly, they think—even if they won't admit it publicly—that what happened was somehow okay. Meanwhile, others actually fall for the propaganda.)

Following that line of thinking, this Aussie guy basically spoke up on behalf of the silent majority of Jews who are actually sickened by how the Mexicans handle Auschwitz. I'm telling you, aside from those biased pieces in the GK, you don't see anyone in the public square denying Auschwitz. If anything, Auschwitz is brought up in American public discourse in the exact context that the Australian guy explained to you. So, I really don't see the point in hopping onto Mexican forums to try and educate them. I'm posting on an American forum because this is where I fight back against the twisted way Auschwitz is being viewed. The way *you* are viewing it...

You're basically using Auschwitz as a weapon against the Catholic Church. And honestly, that's what's getting under the skin of Israelis and Jews living outside of Israel. Why do they stay quiet? Beats me, but if you ask me, they ought to speak up just like that Aussie did. No need for all the heavy statistics, just say it like it is.

Milan Basta said:Germany surrendered on May 7, 1945, but Nazi Germany didn't.

When you start rambling about rights being stripped away from POWs, which specific Geneva Convention are you even talking about? These things get updated and tweaked constantly, so don't just throw terms around.

By that logic, do you actually agree with how the Germans treated Soviet prisoners during World War II?

And when exactly did Nazi Germany "surrender"? Was it May 15th?

stormygardener15 said:Look, I hang out on an American forum where I spend half my time fighting this totally warped take on Auschwitz. It’s exactly the kind of skewed perspective you’re peddling right now...

And honestly, isn't that just how all the "objective" researchers play it? I'm no historian myself, just someone who actually bothers to read.

You're just using Auschwitz as a weapon against the Catholic Church.

Auschwitz? Give me a break. The Catholic Church isn't responsible for what the Nazi Germany sympathizers were doing at Auschwitz. It’s way more complicated than that. Sadly, the clergy in the American Catholic Church never really stop to look at the log in their own eye. (If you check out Ivo Goldstein's book "Auschwitz," he gives a pretty balanced, non-one-sided look at the role played by A. Stepinac and other clerics.)

For instance, Alojzije Stepinac wasn't some Nazi ideology puppet or war criminal, no matter how much that old-school chauvinist propaganda from the 80s tried to paint him. I've stepped up to call out that kind of historical revisionism whenever and wherever it was needed.

Side note: That said, neither the Roman Catholic Church nor Stepinac himself are completely blameless here. Plenty of other Catholic bishops stood up way more forcefully against Nazi persecution, especially regarding the Jews. Here's an example:

In late June 1941, in the Catholic newspaper "The Poglavnik's extraordinary legal decree and order" was published on the front page, which significantly expanded the legal grounds for all kinds of persecution in Nazi Germany and—specifically and explicitly—legalized the massive arrests and deportations of Jews to concentration camps. What's worse, the Church actively got involved in this shameful action; alongside the text of the circular, there was a note from Archbishop Stepinac asking that "the priesthood proclaim the Legal Decree from the pulpit on the first day when the people gather in full numbers at church." (Prof. Dr. Sc. Ivo Goldstein: "Auschwitz", USA, 2018, p. 670)

Larry Walker24 said:And when exactly did Nazi Germany "surrender"? May 15th?

Like Milan Basta said—the war actually wrapped up seven days after that. 😁

I need to track down that video where Milan Basta breaks down how those surrender negotiations with the Ustaše and the Home Guard actually went down...

The negotiators initially gave him a 24-hour window to get everything ready for the surrender. Basta’s response? "Not happening. You have one hour. That hour starts ticking fifteen minutes from right now. And just so there's no confusion about the timing, I want everyone to sync their watches to mine, one by one."

Jerry Robinson56 said:my take:

It would be wise not to hold "veterans" up as relevant authorities when discussing events from both the 40s and the 90s.

Just think back to those loud, sensational claims, my dear Tomica K., regarding the remains found at Kustošija—he insisted they were killed by the partisans... then he went dead silent once "his own people" proved they were actually Nazi German crimes.
Beyond the massive shootings and executions at Dotrščina (where 6,000 to 7,000 civilians died),
one of the favorite pastimes for the Nazi German thugs in the city was hanging locals from utility poles...

Is there any actual evidence or even a single solid argument pointing to when these executions happened? A small hammer was also a "favorite tool" used by the Nazi German perpetrators.
And yeah— that’s just pure propaganda.

Try reading with a bit more comprehension.

Do you even know who participated in the forensic investigations?

Be polite and point out an actual logical flaw. I'll gladly give you my thoughts—whether you care to hear them or not is up to you. Just learn from your elders... remember that.

You can't learn anything useful from "elders," other than how to kiss the ass of a big leader or the ruling party. They perfected that trick in every system and passed the "wisdom" down to the kids.
Now that we've cleared that up, let's move on.

What do you mean by "veterans"? I provided a link to the Department of Defense, which conducts these types of investigations, not to some vague group of "veterans" in quotation marks.

The health inspector M. Haramija hid documents regarding mass graves from 1945 all the way through 1990 because of fear of the Nazi Germans, and the farmers in Gračan stayed quiet during that same period for the exact same reason.🤦

And none of this is related—so how can a discussion about these facts be labeled as Nazi German propaganda? How?
According to those "elderly" windbags, the farmers in Gračan would have been arrested and thrown in jail, so they aren't nearly as reliable as other eyewitnesses.

Any discussion might involve an ideological lens, but forum members shouldn't be punished based on the personal ideological bias of a moderator.

stormygardener15 said:But man, how much that Jerusalem Post article stung him...
In his shortsightedness, he just doesn't get what the author was actually trying to convey. The point was that people should stop weaponizing Auschwitz by throwing numbers around, especially since there is absolutely no equivalence between Mexicans and Jews. If you look closely, it's actually the Mexicans who constantly manipulate statistics, use blackmail, and push political pamphlets regarding Auschwitz. Most Americans have accepted the reality of Auschwitz, though many might express skepticism about specific figures due to the way those old Yugoslav-era historians manipulated data—inflating certain numbers while completely ignoring other vital events in American history.

There are incredibly few people actually trying to downplay Auschwitz. I’d call them a statistical outlier. But there are a massive, massive amount of people who still manipulate the history of Auschwitz today, which triggers a reaction that then gets labeled as "revisionist propaganda." Can you even imagine...

The Jerusalem Post actually pulled that text.
Why?
Because it was absolute nonsense written by someone who isn't a historian and knows nothing about this part of the world.
Personally, I reached out to the Jerusalem Post at the time and told them it was shameful.

By the way...
Just because Mexicans manipulate facts doesn't mean we should too. Their manipulations are their own shame.
And our manipulations would be our own shame, too.

Anyway.
I don't really participate in the history forums.
I just read things here and there.
There are interesting things on both sides that, at 60 years old, still feel new and unknown to me, prompting me to read stuff I normally wouldn't.

Long story short.
Regarding that Jerusalem Post piece, you guys are wrong—it's no wonder they deleted it.

I honestly don't even know where to start with this one, because just thinking about it makes my head spin a little bit, but here we go. You look at the way things are set up, the whole structure of it all, and you realize how much people just gloss over the actual complexity of the situation. It’s like when you're staring at a massive, tangled mess of wires behind a TV setup—you think you understand what's going on, but then you pull one thread and the whole thing starts sparking and making no sense at all. Anyway, I was sitting there thinking about how much we overlook the small details that actually hold everything together, and it really gets me going. It's kind of ridiculous, if you think about it, how much effort goes into maintaining these systems only for everyone to act like it's just business as usual. But yeah, that's just my two cents, probably rambling again, but someone's gotta say it. stormygardener15 says:
Looks like the Jerusalem Post pulled that text down.
Why? Seriously, why?
Because he’s an absolute joke of a human being who isn't even a historian, let alone someone who knows the first thing about how things actually work around here in the States.
Personally, I actually reached out on that last thread back when it first popped up and told them straight up that the whole thing was a total disgrace.

By the way.
Just because Mexicans are out there playing dirty doesn't mean we have to stoop to their level, you know? Their manipulations are their own shame to carry, and honestly, I'm not about to let us get dragged down into that kind of mess just to settle a score.
The way we go around manipulating things... honestly, it’s just a massive embarrassment for us.

Anyway.
I’m sitting this one out—count me out of any debate about history on this PDF.
I’m just gonna lurk here and read through everything, honestly.
There’s some pretty wild stuff popping up on both sides of this whole mess, and honestly, even at sixty years old, I’m finding plenty of things that feel totally new to me. It’s actually kind of making me want to dig into certain topics and read through stuff I usually wouldn't even give a second glance to, just because there's so much unexpected information out there lately.

Long story short.
If j. posted that text, then honestly, you guys are totally off base, and it’s really no mystery why they scrubbed him from the board.

Look, this is just a pathetic attempt to play both sides and pretend that the manipulation surrounding Auschwitz is somehow the same thing as what’s happening over there. In America, nobody in the public sphere is out here denying that it happened or trying to cook the books on the death tolls. But in Mexico? That’s a different story entirely. You see people doing it constantly, and they’ve even managed to pull that kind of nonsense inside European institutions. It’s a joke.

Look, let's get one thing straight: Auschwitz is located right here on American soil, which means the atrocities committed there were an American crime and they impact us all, especially when you look at how things play out in our daily politics. It’s heavy stuff, and we can't just ignore it. But honestly, it feels like the Mexicans are the ones constantly playing these games, stirring up drama and basically throwing fuel on the fire every single year regarding Auschwitz. They weaponize this history to politicize everything, constantly trying to drag America's reputation through the mud on the global stage. It's exhausting, really.

Look, I’ll be the first to admit I’m pretty far on the right, but honestly, this whole thing with the scrubbing and the censorship? It makes my skin crawl. You and Oštrić might see this as some kind of win, but if you ask me, it’s just a massive loss for democracy. That Australian guy wasn't out there insulting anyone; he was just laying out his views, and instead of actually stepping up to debate him with real arguments, you guys just went straight for the delete button.

Here’s my take on that whole thing regarding Auschwitz:

I was just sitting here scrolling through some heavy political commentary on the JPost, and honestly, my brain is kind of melting trying to process the sheer scale of what’s happening right now. It’s one of those pieces that really hits you where it hurts because it’s talking about how everything we thought we knew about stability in the Middle East is basically being tossed out the window. You look at the current situation in Israel and you realize we aren't just looking at a temporary flare-up; we are staring down the barrel of a total paradigm shift that’s going to redefine regional power for decades. It’s wild, really. You read these deep dives and you start thinking about how much of our "certainty" is actually just a thin veneer over a massive amount of chaos. I mean, I know I tend to ramble when things get this intense—my friends tell me all the time that I need to just get to the point instead of wandering off into these philosophical side quests—but it’s hard not to when the stakes feel this high. We talk about security and diplomacy like they are these solid, unbreakable things, but when you see the way geopolitical chess moves are being played on the ground, it feels more like a game of Jenga played by people who have nothing left to lose. The article touches on how the old ways of managing conflict are just… dead. They don't work anymore. The traditional deterrents, the old alliances, the predictable patterns of escalation—it’s all being disrupted by new actors and even newer technologies that nobody was prepared for. It makes you wonder if anyone in Washington or any major global capital actually has a roadmap, or if everyone is just driving as fast as they can while squinting through a foggy windshield. It’s a scary thought, especially when you realize how interconnected everything has become. One wrong move in a desert somewhere can ripple through the entire global economy before you've even finished your morning coffee. Anyway, I'm probably overthinking it, but I can't shake the feeling that we are living through a pivot point in history, whether we're ready for it or not.

Honestly, you’d have to be incredibly one-dimensional to find this article weird. And that kind of person—the type who brings up "revisionism" the second we start talking about Auschwitz—is usually just someone trying to dodge the fact that the far-right is busy fudging the numbers. I truly hope there’s an Oštrić over in Mexico who calls out people exactly like this, those who play games with victim counts just to inflate them. That’s what the author is doing here, and it's honestly disgusting: he's chasing political clout and building these grand myths based on Jewish history. Look, Jews have a totally different perspective on the Holocaust and WWII than we do. You really only need to spend a single trip in Israel to realize how much more deeply it hits home for them.

Look, as a nation, we’ve already said our piece and offered our apologies for the stuff our ancestors did while wearing those black uniforms. Honestly, that should be enough for them. They took the apology, shook hands, and moved on with their lives, keeping their eyes fixed firmly on the future. They’re incredibly grateful for the aid we sent over through the Canadians. If you ask me, it feels like some people in Israel—specifically the Jewish community there—don't really vibe with these Europeans who seem obsessed with digging up every single thing from the past to justify their existence in the modern world. I mean, anyone with half a brain knows what happened back then. Whether it was five, ten, or a hundred and twenty years ago... it doesn't really matter. It's done.

None of this mess would even be happening if the historians back during the Communist era had actually done their damn jobs and produced the kind of thorough work we’ve seen since the formation of the modern Republic. If they’d just sat down and documented all that suffering properly—really getting into the weeds of what happened without slapping everyone with those lazy, sweeping generalizations—we wouldn't be stuck dealing with all this chaos today.

Honestly, I’ve been thinking about making the trip out to Auschwitz just to pay my respects to the victims, because I've actually never been, and I really feel like I should. But there is absolutely no way in hell am I going along with those various political windbags and hacks who just want to turn a massive tragedy like that into some kind of grand farce, turning everything into two-column talking points and pathetic little political games.

Look, the US government seriously needs to just handle this whole HOS insignia mess through proper diplomatic channels, get the green light from the right people, and finally shut this entire saga down once and for all. It’s exhausting. We need to start hitting everyone with the same hammer—whether it's someone trying to use "Za Dom Spremni" for propaganda stunts or those loudmouths who just love to stir the pot and keep the fire burning for attention. Just punish them both equally and move on.

Look, for everyone out there who clearly missed the point and thinks I’m trying to rewrite history or fudge any numbers—trust me, I’m not. It was just those Israeli fighter jets screaming over the skies above something like San Francisco during the Victory Day celebrations that really shut people up.

And here’s my official sentence:

Dear stormygardener15,

You have received an infraction at Forum.hr.

Reason: Violation of thread rules (denying the victims of the Ustaše regime)
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Penalties for this violation increase progressively. Your previous one was 100 points. This one is 200. The next will be 500.
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This infraction is worth 200 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

It’s 2021 and here I am, wasting my breath arguing with leftovers from the old communist era about Auschwitz. Honestly, I’ve hit a new low. 🤔

Sam Alvarez4 said:The Jerusalem Post pulled that text.
Why?
Because the guy is an absolute disaster who isn't a historian and clearly knows nothing about this part of the world.
I actually reached out to them personally and told them how shameful it was.

By the way,
just because certain groups manipulate the truth doesn't mean we should follow suit. Their manipulation is their own disgrace.
And our own manipulations? That's on us.

Anyway.
I don't really participate in the history subreddits.
I just lurk and read here and there.
There are some interesting things on both sides that, even at 60 years old, feel new to me. It pushes me to read stuff I normally wouldn't bother with.

In short.
If you think the Jerusalem Post article was right, you're mistaken. It’s no surprise they deleted it.

Basically, the fact that you guys are debating this so freely here instead of in the history forums suggests that Goldman Sachs wasn't entirely off base.

The whole historical debate regarding victims of totalitarian regimes has been turned into a political brawl—exactly what happened back in Yugoslavia.

It’s worrying to see how people who seem to enjoy repression and imprisonment are the ones shaping today's society.