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Why was the thread about free speech and discrimination locked?

Started by Donna Cruz7 · · 👁 8 views · 71 replies

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Participants Donna Cruz7lonetrucker4Jonathan Wright2Christian MyersJohn Palmer9Ryan PerezLarry Walker24Bradley White73Arthur Smith15bluecyclist64Morgan Rodriguez57rustydrifter10
lonetrucker4 lonetrucker4 Active Member
193 messages
joined Apr 2024
#41 ·
Jonathan Wright2 said:You got any actual proof that this Initiative/Petition even exists?

Give me a break... You really think I'm gonna deny it? 😵 Can't even blame you for that, honestly. It's your right. You definitely aren't getting a red card for it.

Of course I’ve got the receipts. This guy was blowing up everyone's inbox, messaging people left and right, so obviously it eventually landed on my desk too.

Look, you're switching things up because you don't leave any room for people to just chill out.

So chill that they actually let people play handball in soccer? Yeah, that's way too lazy for me.

Just a bunch of links every single time. Honestly, even with all that "freedom of speech" I claim to have, it doesn't change a damn thing about what I said.

Look, you really are. I laid it all out for you. If you just can't wrap your head around it, that's on you. My bad.

It was just some random anti-fascist crew put together by those Peasant Party members from up in the Appalachian Mountains.

And there we go again. You’re seriously out here arguing that playing soccer with your hands is totally fine. 😵

She’s so "unidentified" that she’s basically a ghost—not a single mention in any records from the resistance, the Axis, the Italians, or the Germans. Not even one Peasant Party member from the WWII era or the exile crowd has ever breathed her name in their memoirs. And you're actually banking on some sketchy source who was just hanging around Washington, D.C. collecting rumors? This guy had zero intel from the old regime and zero ties to the National Liberation Committee, yet you're treating him like gospel. You really think one guy wandering into D.C. suddenly holds the secret truth that everyone else missed? Give me a break. 🤦

You’re still out here digging your heels in, insisting you’ve got every right to intentionally use your hands, and acting like it’s totally uncool for a ref to toss a yellow card your way because of it. 🙂

People like this make things actually worth watching.

Look, there are other subreddits here if you actually want to have some fun.

Let people run their mouths first. Once they're done tripping over their own feet, then you step in and show them exactly how wrong they are.

I honestly think out of all the mods on every forum on the planet, there are barely any who’d sweat the details trying to explain things as hard as I am right now.

It’s all because of that principle I posted in my signature yesterday. (I translated it into English just to make it sound more badass. 😛 If some English professor out there wants to nitpick my grammar—like if I messed up using "the" or something—go ahead, I won't mind!)
Bradley White73 Bradley White73 Active Member
78 messages
joined Sep 2020
#42 ·
Ryan Perez said:How much is that actually different from the forced conversions used by the fascists?

I think I see where the disconnect is. Whenever we start talking about core principles, things seem to get a bit lost in the shuffle. It feels like you're leaning on specific, isolated examples that really should be treated as exceptions to the rule, I guess.

I wouldn't say I've lost my way, but maybe you just revealed your hand a little early. There’s a massive difference when you consider concentration camps, genocide, and all those other grim details. People were being forced to convert just to stay alive. I don't think anyone is forcing you to marry in Israel according to the rules of some minor religion that doesn't impact your basic survival, right?
Bradley White73 Bradley White73 Active Member
78 messages
joined Sep 2020
#43 ·
Jonathan Wright2 said:Nobody is dragging anyone's name through the mud here..
We aren't inciting any kind of hostility.
We’re just having a conversation.
There's nothing being hidden.

Honestly, I’d much rather deal with open hostility than this sugary sweet babbling you've been doing for months just to try and push lonetrucker4 out of the picture..
lonetrucker4 lonetrucker4 Active Member
193 messages
joined Apr 2024
#44 ·
Just a heads up:

Ryan Perez said:Didn't you just say you were in the party?

Nope. I said I was never in the party (aka the Communist Union).
Ryan Perez Ryan Perez Member
12 messages
joined Aug 2020
#45 ·
Linda King said:I don't think I've lost my way, though you seem to have revealed your true colors quite quickly. I suppose the distinction lies in things like concentration camps, genocide, and various other specific details. People were essentially forced to compromise just to stay alive. It isn't as if anyone is forcing you to marry in Israel according to the customs of some minor religion that doesn't even impact your own survival or lifestyle.

Well, what exactly was your expectation—that they would start reopening gas chambers in the 21st century?

I guess this is just typical internet exaggeration, where people try to push an argument way too far. Are we really supposed to believe it's about "religious preservation" rather than race? 😁

Let's not pretend this is confusing. To me, the background seems pretty clear: Israel is dealing with issues regarding Palestinians, and they've chosen a provision that, as I mentioned before, carries a certain scent of racial preservation. I suspect they aren't particularly concerned with my opinion or yours; instead, they've opted for a tactic that, in certain respects, feels a bit reminiscent of those who nearly wiped them out.

If it weren't so absurd, it might actually be funny. But knowing your track record, I imagine this is a first for you.
Ryan Perez Ryan Perez Member
12 messages
joined Aug 2020
#46 ·
lonetrucker4 said:Just to be clear:

No, I actually meant that I was never a member of any political party (specifically, the Communist Union).

Fair enough. But I guess you might still lean toward the left?
Jonathan Wright2 Jonathan Wright2 Member
44 messages
joined Aug 2020
#47 ·
lonetrucker4 said:I can't wrap my head around any of them.

Yeah... sure.
And hey, that's fine by me.
That's just your personal take.

But look, you're the moderator here.
You've gotta rise above that kind of stuff.
That's the whole point.
lonetrucker4 said:No way. But you shouldn't just flat-out claim that the old Yugoslavia encyclopedias were definitely lying. You have to actually dig in and prove it. For instance, they used to say there were 700,000 victims at Auschwitz—that's obviously wrong. I mentioned during that debate about the resistance in the Soviet Union that the Encyclopedia Britannica would list the partisan numbers as 80,000 by late 1941, then 150,000 by late 1942, and those numbers just kept getting recycled everywhere. But they're clearly inflated once you actually look at the primary partisan sources. By the end of '41, it was maybe 30,000 to 35,000, and by the end of '42, maybe around 55,000.

I'm not claiming there's some massive, absolute conspiracy or forgery going on.
No.
I never said that. That’s impossible to prove.
What I am doing is pointing out that we have the freedom to talk about historical traces that have multiple versions.
The old Yugoslavian encyclopedias had fifty years to evolve, and honestly, they possess a certain level of quality.
I'm not disputing that either.
But, please, let us compare certain documents today that were controversial back then or carry ambiguous meanings.
You seem terrified that the value of the National Liberation Movement will crumble.
Man, I'm telling you, it won't...
It's precisely this freedom and criticism that leads to the core principle: the right to free speech, which is the fundamental element standing against all the symptoms of fascism and totalitarianism.
lonetrucker4 said:However, the encyclopedias stated that the only active armed resistance against the occupiers during WWII was provided by the partisans, who were founded and led by the Communist Party USA. And that much is true.

Members of the Communist Party USA/Young Communist League made an indispensable and vital contribution to the creation of the National Liberation Movement.
Yes.
And who is actually arguing against that?
And again, look... if someone starts a thread specifically to challenge that thesis, let them. Give them some breathing room. Let the debate play out.
If you just shut down a good idea, we all end up bored out of our minds repeating the same old talking points.
lonetrucker4 said:I mean, look, Irena Sendler was basically a footnote in most history books—just a tiny, marginal mention—but I’ve been out here on this forum trying to write about her way before she became some household name thanks to that movie. It’s a form of resistance against the fascists (not even the occupiers, just the local collaborators), you know? It's a huge deal, even if it isn't happening with guns and bullets.

You are.
Thanks.
Jonathan Wright2 Jonathan Wright2 Member
44 messages
joined Aug 2020
#48 ·
lonetrucker4;84938717 said:Don't even start... You seriously think I'm going to deny it? 😵 And honestly, if I barely even call you out on it, that’s your right. It's not like you're gonna get a red card for it.
Look, I've got receipts. You've been hitting up a ton of people—they were messaging others, and of course, word eventually made its way back to me.
[/OTETE]
lonetrucker4;84938717 said:

Look, I don't have a problem with having an open conversation—that's actually what makes a high-quality forum great—but if we keep this going and Nica decides to lock the thread halfway through, then what? What's the plan then?
I’d love to just lay out the results for you... Let's see, let's try to find a way to work together, maybe find a way to make this forum stronger through our different perspectives...
If you can pull some strings to make sure this thread doesn't get shut down, I am totally down for being completely transparent..

lonetrucker4;84938717 said:
It's so "unidentified" that nobody knows anything about it—it isn't mentioned in any documents from the resistance or the collaborators, not by the Italians or the Germans, not in a single memoir. Not one single Peasant Party member who was in the resistance or living in exile during the era of the Soviet Union or later ever brought it up... And you're citing some vague source—some guy who was in Washington, D.C. just collecting rumors? He had no sources within the regime, no contacts with the National Liberation Committee, and yet you're clinging to that as proof. You really think one guy wandering into D.C. knows something that absolutely nobody else has known to this day? 🤦
[/OTETE]
lonetrucker4;84938717 said:

Listen to me, please...
You've got your little moderator handbook rules.
If you disagree or feel like a topic doesn't meet the criteria you're standing for, then fine—just put a note in blue text before the post stating that there are inaccuracies involved, but then let the discussion continue and let the users decide for themselves..
Right now, you're making the decision instead of them.
Give them the right to criticize things themselves, to debunk whatever claims are being made.
Let the forum actually be a forum.

lonetrucker4;84938717 said:
I honestly think among all the moderators on every forum in the world, there are very few who would put as much effort into explaining something as I am trying to explain it to you.

That's because of the principles I laid out in the sig yesterday. (I translated it into English to make it sound more cool. 😛 Hey, if any actual English expert has a critique of the translation—like if I messed up using "the" or something—I'll take it!)[/OTETE]
lonetrucker4;84938717 said:

Are you implying that I should be grateful for the patience you're showing me?
Fine.
Thanks for the patience, lonetrucker4.

My expectation is that we share a common goal here: a quality forum.
Jonathan Wright2 Jonathan Wright2 Member
44 messages
joined Aug 2020
#49 ·
Ryan Perez said:Alright then. So, are you a leftist?

Yeah, I'm a left-leaning liberal.
Jonathan Wright2 Jonathan Wright2 Member
44 messages
joined Aug 2020
#50 ·
Linda King said:Honestly, I’d take blatant hostility over this sugary-sweet babbling you’ve been doing for months just to try and push Oštrić out of the picture...

Look, if you actually give a damn about History, you’re missing the one thing—the fuel, really—that drives every single person on the History subreddits. You're missing the point. You're missing the "Why."

Go back and read the old threads. Look at the dynamics between the users and the moderator lonetrucker4, and then ask yourself: why?
How did we even end up in this mess?

Who exactly is the "enemy" here?
Man, just chill out... nobody here is out to get anyone else.
Reddit doesn't manufacture hostility.
It goes way deeper than that.
Arthur Smith15 Arthur Smith15 Member
41 messages
joined Nov 2021
#51 ·
Jeffrey Adams said:(...)

For crying out loud, just stop this pathetic whining already.
Ryan Perez Ryan Perez Member
12 messages
joined Aug 2020
#52 ·
Here are a few more things to think about:

- The resistance fighters were actually negotiating with the Nazis, and not just regarding prisoner exchanges.

- Before the war even started, the Communists were showing some level of solidarity with the fascists.

- And then there's the fact that Tito was once considered a terrorist, specifically regarding that bombing incident.
Ryan Perez Ryan Perez Member
12 messages
joined Aug 2020
#53 ·
Jonathan Wright2 said:I suppose one could say that the members of the Communist Party USA and the Young Communist League played an absolutely vital and indispensable role in the formation of the National Liberation Movement.

Now that you’ve brought that up, I suppose it serves as yet another trigger for me:

I suppose it might be fair to say that the Communists, following the specific directives handed down by the Comintern, remained somewhat passive regarding the Nazi presence during those first two months of the occupation of Yugoslavia, at least until the invasion of the USSR began.

I suppose one could argue that certain ways of looking at the history of Yugoslavia tend toward a bit of sugarcoating, especially when you consider how certain events were framed as mere preparations for an uprising or just general efforts to gather weapons. It feels like there was a certain tendency to smooth over the rough edges of that era, perhaps by focusing on those specific organizational movements instead of the messier realities.
Ryan Perez Ryan Perez Member
12 messages
joined Aug 2020
#54 ·
I there is another trigger that people often overlook. When you label the way certain groups tally up victims as them inciting violence or boosting morale for a new war and vengeance against the fascists, lonetrucker4 will probably tell you that you're getting off track. I suppose I can somewhat see his point, since it isn't directly related to World War II.

It might not be strictly on topic, but I feel it could have everything to do with my life, and yours too. I certainly wouldn't want to see a repeat of the 1990s, and I imagine many of you feel the same way.

Essentially, lonetrucker4 seems to reject any narrative coming from the right wing. He appears convinced that nothing of value or goodness exists on that side of the aisle.

Hegel suggested that humanity turned toward philosophy and achieved progress primarily to make life easier and to alleviate suffering. In that sense, every field—even the humanities—aims to make existence more manageable. If I can look at a historical subject and its modern implications and recognize a potential threat to my own safety, then I believe that science has fulfilled its purpose. I cannot change History, and while I feel no connection to those unfortunate fascists, I worry that my future and the future of my children could be made bitter because of them.

I would really love it if lonetrucker4 would answer just one question for me: does he truly believe that some people are using Auschwitz as a way to incite a new war?
Bradley White73 Bradley White73 Active Member
78 messages
joined Sep 2020
#55 ·
Jonathan Wright2 said:If you're actually interested in History, then maybe you're just missing one specific spark—that kind of fuel every single person on the History subreddits seems to have. It feels like you're lacking a sense of purpose, or perhaps just one fundamental question: Why?

I suppose if you look back at the old threads, and really examine the dynamics between the users and our moderator, lonetrucker4, you might find yourself asking... why?
Why did things even get to this point?

Who exactly is all this open hostility directed toward?
Look, friend, I think it's best to just stay calm... I don't believe anyone here is truly anyone else's enemy.
Reddit doesn't go out of its way to create animosity.
It’s probably something much deeper than that.

Please take my username off that list you're passing around. I never signed up for any sort of Initiative, and I think you might have overinterpreted my response to the thread a bit too freely.
bluecyclist64 bluecyclist64 Regular
369 messages
joined Oct 2011
#56 ·
Linda King said:Take my name off that list you’re passing around. I never signed up for any Initiative; it looks like you took my participation on the topic far too loosely.

Please, if you actually have that list, just post it. Or send it to me directly.
I guess I’m clearly neither depressed enough nor a fascist, otherwise those anti-fascist martyrs would have sent it my way already.
Arthur Smith15 Arthur Smith15 Member
41 messages
joined Nov 2021
#57 ·
What a joke, right? Seriously, what kind of absolute losers are we even dealing with here? 😁
Ryan Perez Ryan Perez Member
12 messages
joined Aug 2020
#58 ·
Arthur Smith15 said:Just a list, right? Honestly, what a bunch of people who just lost their way... 😁

Bradley White73 Bradley White73 Active Member
78 messages
joined Sep 2020
#59 ·
Arthur Smith15 said:So, what’s the count then? Honestly, just looking at those absolute losers who managed to blow it... 😁

I don't think Jonathan Wright2 is some kind of lost cause, honestly. He knows exactly what he’s doing by trying to carve out this specific space over on the History subreddit. It isn't all as innocent as it looks, I guess; there's definitely a deeper layer to it all, even if it's wrapped up in pretty, polished packaging.
Ryan Perez Ryan Perez Member
12 messages
joined Aug 2020
#60 ·
Linda King said:I don't think Jonathan Wright2 is some kind of loser, honestly; I suppose he knows exactly what he's trying to achieve by opening up this space on History. It doesn't seem entirely harmless, if you ask me, even if it is all wrapped up in quite a bit of cellophane.

Is fascism on the rise? 😁

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