The Ukraine discussion: Is this supporting terrorism?

I’m really wondering how long we’re going to keep hosting discussions that basically give a pass to Russia’s aggression against the sovereign nation of Ukraine and those pro-Russian terrorists over in eastern Ukraine.
What do you even call a country like Russia when they’re occupying parts of an internationally recognized state like Ukraine? It’s the exact same playbook Stalin used with Poland at the start of WWII.
And what about those masked paramilitary groups setting up roadblocks and physically attacking UN observers?
Chuck, how am I even supposed to label them? It feels like calling them terrorists is off-limits, and labeling Russia an aggressor is taboo too. Even comparing the situation in Ukraine to anything happening here in America seems to be a no-go.
Is this entire thread just a space to support the violation of international law and the idea that borders should be untouchable?
Does a discussion about Ukraine even make sense if we aren't actually allowed to voice our own opinions?
It feels like there’s a bunch of Russia-lovers having a field day here, while the rest of us won't even bother posting under these restrictive rules.
Might as well just rename the thread "Messages and Greetings to Russia and Putin."

I’m in total agreement.
First off, hardly anyone is even posting anymore, except for those Practice voters in the poll for a "pro-European Ukraine." It’s all just people voting for a "pro-Russian Ukraine." That’s a plain fact you can verify pretty easily—just check the thread and see who’s actually participating.
They call dead Ukrainian pilots "grounded," and they constantly describe Ukraine as some kind of "miracle land"—a non-existent country (not that Putin hasn't said the same thing himself). Meanwhile, I'm being lectured about calling the forum users who voted for a "pro-Russian Ukraine" (whatever that's supposed to mean) pro-Russians.

We’re looking at clear violations of international law here, which is exactly what the moderator Charles Fox10 pointed out on the very first page.
I’ll ask again: what do we actually call a masked paramilitary group that goes around kidnapping international observers?
Separatists?? I don't think so. If we went that route, they'd have to explain why these so-called Ukrainian separatists are being lumped in with the Scottish separatists.
Just as a quick refresher on what terrorism actually means:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
I’d like to ask the administration (wiredangler5) to take another look at the rules on the first page of this Ukraine thread. Right now, they're making it impossible for us to just have a normal conversation and participate in the debate.

I’m not entirely sure if the separatists are busy kidnapping people and murdering 19-year-old girls at checkpoints—by the way, another woman was killed at a checkpoint just a few days ago—or if they're more focused on taking down Russian helicopters and jets, rolling through cities in tanks, and blowing up bridges and railways.

hiddenrider66 said:I’m just not sure if we call it "separatists" when they’re kidnapping people, killing 19-year-old girls at checkpoints—by the way, another woman was killed at a checkpoint just a few days ago—shooting down Russian helicopters and planes, rolling through cities in tanks, and blowing up bridges and railways.

Exactly 👍. I actually included a link in my previous post, so maybe whoever is still confused should read it to get a real definition of terrorism.
I’m asking the moderators to step in here, because a thread set up like this just doesn't make any sense.

division said:So what are they waiting for? Was there an official draft? Why aren't they already over there? What are they still looking for at the Maidan?

Maybe they just don't feel like it? Are the fighters for New Russia not just clay pigeons like those cops sacrificed by Yanukovych?? What's the issue?? Haven't they realized there's no more fighting happening at the Maidan?

Go on then, kids, charge toward New Russia—see who gets a funeral service and who stays face down in the dirt!!!

There you go. A perfect example of the kind of posts we constantly deal with in this thread. I'd love to see how the admin would classify this one.

granitefalcon26 said:Is there even any point in talking about Ukraine if we aren't actually allowed to share our own thoughts here?
A couple of Russia enthusiasts are talking about nothing but orgies, while the rest of us aren't exactly itching to join that conversation under these conditions.

It makes sense, honestly. Nobody's actually being silenced when they want to speak up. It’s just that certain restrictions make it harder to describe the situation or draw comparisons when we're told to avoid specific topics. It isn't because anyone is picking sides or playing defense for those clinging to border treaties. I just think the Moderator guidelines make it tougher to have the kind of deep discussion we could be having.
The point isn't that anyone is taking sides. It’s just that people have repeatedly crossed the line during decent discussions, throwing insults around and comparing everything to some kind of modern-day civil war.
It’s impossible to moderate at that point. When everyone—literally everyone—starts crossing the line in every single one of those tens of thousands of posts, the trolling and insults just never stop. It becomes an endless loop.

It feels like everyone is busy reporting the other side, yet they don't seem to care when their own language gets heated. People file complaints over even the tiniest descriptive terms used against the opposition, making it impossible to moderate the thread or keep the discussion on track. It just spirals out of control.

A lot of these moderator guidelines aren't actually meant to shut down one political side. It's more that people here haven't quite mastered how to have a mature, analytical debate without immediately launching a verbal artillery strike at anyone "across the border," only to have the other side launch an immediate counteroffensive full of insults. It just goes on like that forever.

These decisions weren't made for political reasons. It’s just that everyone approaches this topic like a die-hard sports fan, which is basically all I see here. It’s like you all think you’re actually on the front lines in Lugano, when really you're just sitting back in your armchairs in some small town in the US, scrolling through Reddit.

Look, if you really want me to step back and ignore all the discussion guidelines, I can do that. But just fair warning: don't expect the Moderators to be able to keep things under control. It’s going to become an absolute mess, and you'll end up reading some pretty nasty stuff. Just don't come complaining to me when the thread becomes unreadable and toxic.

We can't just ban people for supporting Russian policy. Personally, I might think they're dead wrong, but that's my take. The Moderators are supposed to stay neutral and recognize that there’s a side out there with its own right to support a different option. Even if their views seem totally off to me because they lean toward aggression, that shouldn't matter for this thread. It's more important to allow both sides to exist and respect everyone's right to an opinion.

granitefalcon26 said:Rename the thread to "Messages" and send my regards to Russia and Putin.

Don't be like that. Look, we can't change the fact that those pushing the Russian side are incredibly loud. They flood the place with hundreds of posts and seem dominant just because they act so unified (they aren't, but that's how it looks from the outside). What are we supposed to do? Should Reddit just assign a squad of pro-Ukraine supporters to create some balance? Or should we build a bot program to spam technical, random posts for the Ukrainian side?

The reason this thread often feels like an online corner for a "Russia Today" style outlet isn't because of the site admins. As long as the posts follow the rules and don't cross the line into needing a warning or deletion (and honestly, a ton of them get deleted), the moderation team stays out of it. Unless we decide to go for preemptive strikes—like picking 15 random users who support Russia every few days and banning them overnight just for fun. I really don't know any other way to establish a balance that should really be handled by the users themselves.

granitefalcon26 said:I’d like to ask the administration (wiredangler5) to revise the rules on the first page of the Ukraine thread, because they're preventing us from having normal discussions and participating properly.

I’d ask you to give me an example first—show us how you would edit things so we can all see if it's actually doable. You need to provide guidelines that make the discussion better for both sides and allow moderators to remain as neutral as they need to be. Those guidelines shouldn't favor one side while leaving the other at a disadvantage, otherwise, the moderators will just end up getting harassed with complaints. So, please, give us an example of what and how the discussion could be improved. Then we can all decide together if it works or not.

hiddenrider66 said:Here's an example of the kind of post we constantly see in this thread. Let the admin decide how they would classify it.

I’d also like to hear your take: what exactly should a moderator, supermoderator, or admin do with a post like this? What should the reaction be? What kind of penalty? A post can be deleted, or it doesn't have to be. That's for the moderator to judge. If the post is unreadable, biased, or purely propaganda, it stays. There are heaps of posts like that from the same user and plenty of others too. On both sides. You see the same thing from the Ukrainian side. But tell us, what's your proposal for handling this? Just keep in mind that if we apply that logic, it would affect about 80% of the tens of thousands of posts everyone has written there.

Honestly, this post is a perfect snapshot of the level of discussion happening among all the drama enthusiasts. It's a clear example of why the thread is so hard to read, and I'm not surprised many people avoid it entirely. Not even to read, let alone join the debate, because coherent discussion is rare compared to posts like this.

So, tell me: what exactly should moderators do with posts like these? How would you judge them?

hiddenrider66 said:This is just a classic example of the kind of posts we see all the time on this thread. I’d love to see how the admin would actually classify something like this.

In that specific post, someone is openly glorifying and cheering on Russia's aggression against an independent Ukraine.
What I'm really wondering—and this goes back to the intro where the guideline day basically implies we aren't allowed to say anything except praise for Russia and Putin—is whether the moderation team is actually supporting an invasion of a sovereign nation and ignoring international law and the sanctity of borders.???

How I finally figured out the admin:
People are staying active. Who exactly is complaining? There's nothing we can do about it on our end.
There are more of them out there. Who's to blame? Honestly, there isn't much we can do about it here.
The level of discussion here is pretty low. Even the pro-Ukraine crowd—by the way, is that even the right way to refer to them? 😕The posts here are starting to sound like mindless hooligan chants. There's nothing left for us to work with. It feels like out of all the Ukrainians around, only Practice is still actually contributing anything meaningful.
If they actually managed to trip any wires, we’d be absolutely drowning in complaints from all the pro-Russia crowd. 😕 Look at the reason above. Honestly, this thread would probably die out anyway, though I suspect it’s already dead to the public in its current state.
Just to sum things up—those hardcore pro-Ukraine types really ought to just walk away from this thread entirely. Maybe we should just start a new subforum under a different name with a different moderator. Someone who actually knows how to set some decent guidelines from day one so we can have an actual conversation for once. And where exactly would you find more people with diverse perspectives, given the current political climate? Besides, the "pro-Russia" crowd would still have their own dedicated thread, so there wouldn't be any reason to go rushing over to this other one anyway.

granitefalcon26 said:I’m really curious—how long is this thread going to tolerate Russian aggression against the internationally recognized state of Ukraine and those pro-Russian terrorists in eastern Ukraine?
What do we even call a country like Russia when they occupy parts of a sovereign nation like Ukraine? It’s exactly what Stalin did to Poland at the start of WWII.
And how should we label these masked paramilitary groups that set up barricades and drive away UN observers?
Charles Fox10, how am I supposed to name them? Apparently, calling them terrorists is off-limits. Calling Russia an aggressor is forbidden. Even comparing the situation in Ukraine to what happened here in America is apparently taboo.
Is this thread actually promoting the violation of international law regarding the sanctity of borders?
Does a discussion about Ukraine even make sense if everyone is being shut down from sharing their actual opinions?
The thread is basically a party for a few Russophiles, while the rest of us aren't even allowed to participate under these rules.
Just rename the whole thread "Messages and Greetings to Mother Russia and Putin."

It took me a minute to wrap my head around the fact that’s actually the title of the thread, so I eventually just gave up... but honestly, I’m glad you started this, if only so these few dissenting voices can be recorded somewhere.🙂

Wait, is there anyone left on this thread who actually opposes the aggression in Ukraine? Seriously, hats off to them—I can't believe they haven't been chased off yet. 😬

@ wiredangler5, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your personal bias heavily influences how you shape the threads on the subreddits you moderate—and more broadly, it dictates the entire "vibe" and political slant being projected here
Look, after spending several years scanning the way this system operates, I’ve become pretty certain about this, so I feel empowered to finally lay it out for you.

And just as an aside, those pro-Russian spammers were nothing more than a direct response to that nauseatingly pro-American—pardon me, let's say pro-Ukrainian—propaganda that has been flooding the scene since this crisis kicked off in the first place.
It’s basic physics, really: action and reaction.

Gentlemen, do you actually have any proof for these claims? Verified intel from the ground? Video footage? Photos?

I won't speak for anyone else, but I've been tracking the situation in Ukraine for months now. If you look back at my track record, almost everything I’ve written has been grounded in logic and evidence, and the vast majority of it has proven to be spot on.

My goal has always been to uncover the truth about what is happening in Ukraine, and one has to admit that the truth looks very ugly for the Kyiv-based government.

Look, this isn't some sports match between Russia and Ukraine. A lot of people approach this topic like die-hard fans, seemingly unaware that people are dying in Donbas every single day. It’s honestly repulsive to see people cheering for the Kyiv regime while their military is shelling civilians or hitting residential areas and their inhabitants.

And please, stop with this narrative about an "attack on a sovereign state." Ukraine has never truly been a sovereign nation, especially not during these last four months while they've been being managed directly out of Brussels and Washington.

Ukraine is a textbook example of a puppet state, and a puppet state simply isn't a sovereign state.

Arthur Fowler83 said:Gentlemen, do you actually have any proof for what you're claiming? Verified intel from the ground? Video footage? Photos?

I won't speak for anyone else, but I've been tracking the situation in Ukraine for months now. If you look back, almost everything I've posted has been based on logic and evidence, and the vast majority of it turned out to be spot on.

My goal has always just been to figure out the truth about what's happening in Ukraine, and honestly, the truth is pretty ugly for the Kyiv-based government.

Look, this isn't some sports match between Russia and Ukraine. A lot of people here act like die-hard fans, seemingly oblivious to the fact that people are dying in Donbas every single day. It’s frankly disgusting to cheer for the Kyiv regime while their military is shelling civilians or hitting residential areas.

And let's drop the whole "attack on a sovereign nation" narrative. Ukraine was never truly sovereign, especially not during these last four months while they've been being run directly out of Brussels and Washington.

Ukraine is a textbook puppet state, and a puppet state isn't a sovereign one.

Admins, I'm asking nicely, just like my colleague said—change the thread title so it actually fits!
They're just pushing propaganda here too, now that they've kicked everyone else out.😲

Emily Patel64 said:@ wiredangler5, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your personal bias clearly shapes the way you curate threads on this sub, and honestly, it colors the entire political tone here.
After lurking through this system for a few years now, I’ve become pretty certain about it. So, there—just thought I'd let you know.

And just for the record, those pro-Russia spammers were nothing more than a reaction to that nauseating pro-American... excuse me, pro-Ukraine propaganda that’s been flooding the place since this crisis kicked off.
It’s simple physics: action and reaction.

They fit right in, and they were moderated just as heavily, which explains why everyone except a handful of people eventually just walked away.🙂

When someone complains and asks for changes, I expect them to actually see what’s broken and offer a vision, an idea, or some advice on how to fix it. If you just list grievances and demand solutions without any direction, I could keep writing complaints all day too.
If you spend enough time on this forum, I assume you understand the rhythm of the moderators' work and the reality of what they can actually control versus what they can't. Just asking you—would you be complaining if the points you're quoting below (your post) were coming from the Ukrainian side, or would you still speak up if things weren't right? Honestly, answer that to yourself first, then tell us here.

If you want to change things, you probably already know how you'd change them. Since my last response didn't sit well with you, why don't you give me some specific advice? Tell me exactly what the moderators need to do regarding this issue:

hiddenrider66 said:How I figured out the admin's mindset:
- People are active; who's going to complain? There's nothing we can do about it.;
- They outnumber us; whose fault is that? We can't change the math.;
- Discussion quality is low, but even the pro-Ukrainian crowd (by the way, is it okay to call them that? 😕) posts fanboyish stuff, so there's nothing we can do there either. (As if Practice is the only one left from the Ukrainians)
- If we actually touched anything, we'd be smothered by complaints from Russians or pro-Russians 😕 (see reason above) and the thread would die, though honestly, it's already dead to the public in its current state.

So, I'm really asking you now: what exactly should the moderators do here? If you don't have a concrete answer, please don't blame the moderators for things that are outside their control. How am I supposed to reduce activity from the other side? Should we just nag them until they get tired and give up? What's the plan?

Second, of course the quality of discussion is pretty low. You even pointed that out yourself by quoting the post from the division. But seriously, what am I supposed to do specifically with that fanboy post from the division? And why didn't you provide a post from the "Ukrainian" side so I could see what we should actually try to ban? It feels a little unfair to publicly put the division on blast without providing
examples from your own side. Then act surprised when I say that if we call out those kinds of posts, we have to apply it to everyone or no one at all.

Do you—or do you all—have the will to write posts that make the topic more meaningful and pleasant? If you don't have that drive, and most users over there don't either, how do you expect the moderators to force that change on you? We could make a deal: meaningful, analytical posts of at least 500 words without the fanboy zeal are allowed. Anyone posting below that criteria gets a 10-day cooling-off period. Look, obviously the moderators aren't going to run a crackdown like that. I just want to show you that you guys are the ones responsible for the quality.

Third—what do you expect? If we let one side have a bit more leeway, shouldn't we expect a wave of complaints from the other side? What, do you think they'll send us telegrams and flowers? I don't get why you're surprised or why this is confusing. And I noticed that smiley 🙄 in the last point; reading between the lines, you think it's illogical not to give the "Ukrainian side" softer criteria just because "Russians" might complain. To you, that's not how it should work.
It's not about being polite to one side of the debate, it's just that you seem to think we don't have any empathy because you're worried about people "whining." Once you start reacting like that, I can see how biased you actually are regarding this appeal.

Look, I politely asked for everyone's input, and I stand by that. If my suggestion to look at things together to improve the discussion only gets a response like yours—just questioning everything with 🙄 nonsense—then please just skip this appeal. It's clear you don't even know what you'd change if the whole topic were actually improved.

I really don't want to waste my time writing ten more posts just to answer your endless questions about what falls under a Moderator's jurisdiction.

hiddenrider66 said:To sum it up—those supporting Ukraine should just leave this current thread about Ukraine entirely and start a new one with a different moderator, someone who would set actual guidelines for a normal discussion where a wider variety of views could exist without the current atmosphere. That way, "pro-Russia" users would still have their own thread, so there wouldn't be any reason to jump over to a second one.

That's fine. I’d rather you just work on the existing thread properly. Don't forget that the vibe of a thread is mostly what you all make of it, not the moderators. 😉 Put that energy into the discussion instead, and you might actually change something.

Arthur Fowler83 said:Listen, folks, do any of you actually have proof to back up what you're saying? I'm talking about real, verified intel from the ground—video footage, photos, anything solid.

I won't speak for everyone else, but I’ve been closely following the situation in Ukraine for months now. Looking back at everything I've posted, most of what I said was based on logic and solid evidence—and for the most part, it turns out I was right.

I’ve always made it my mission to get to the bottom of what’s actually happening in Ukraine, and honestly? I have to admit, the truth looks pretty ugly for the government in Kyiv.

Look, guys, this isn't some sports match between Russia and Ukraine. A lot of people jumping into this thread are acting like they're just cheering for a team, but they don't seem to realize that people in the Donbas are losing their lives every single day. Honestly, it feels pretty gross to see people rooting for the Kyiv-based regime when their military is shelling civilians and hitting residential areas.

Can we please stop with this whole "attack on a sovereign nation" narrative? Let’s be real: Ukraine hasn't exactly been running its own show for a long time—especially not these last four months, since they've basically been under direct management from Brussels and Washington.

Ukraine is basically the textbook definition of a puppet state, and let’s be real—a puppet state isn't actually a sovereign nation.

Here we go again. Seriously, how long are we going to let posts like this slide? When is someone going to step in and address the blatant denial of a sovereign nation's existence?
What’s next on the agenda? Denying that America even exists? If we start applying these kinds of criteria, someone’s going to open a thread claiming our entire independence is a myth.

Brenda Cook4 Asks:
So, after everything that went down, I ended up throwing in the towel. Honestly, what else could I have done?

I really tried to dive headfirst into this "heavy topic," but man, was I in over my head.
And alongside a few pointers of my own, I really wanted to leave the readers with one final thought...
Let's just hope they aren't trying to stir up any illegal activities or anything that flies in the face of the Constitution.
(If you take a look at Title Nine, Article 89, Section 4, you’ll see exactly what I’m talking about. It's right there in the fine print.)
It just wasn't working out—so I called it quits. 🤷

wiredangler5 said:When someone complains and asks for changes, I expect them to actually see what’s broken and have a vision, an idea, or some advice on how to fix it. If you just list grievances and ask for solutions without any input, I could keep writing complaints all day long.
If you hang out here on the forum, I assume you understand the rhythm of how moderators work and what is actually within their control versus what isn't. Let me ask you this: would you be complaining if the points you cited earlier (your post) were coming from the Ukrainian side, or would you still be raising your voice saying things need to change? Honestly, answer that to yourself first, then get back to us.

If you want things changed, you probably already know what and how you’d change them. Since my last response didn't sit well with you, why don't you tell me exactly what the moderators should do about this:

Seriously, I am asking you—tell me exactly what the moderators need to do right now. If you don't have a specific answer, please don't blame the moderation team for things that are completely outside of their jurisdiction. How exactly am I supposed to reduce activity from the other side? Should we just badger them until they fall asleep and give up? What's the plan?

Secondly, yeah, the quality of the discussions is pretty low. You even pointed that out yourself by quoting that post from the division. But let's be real: what am I supposed to do with that one fanboyish post from the division? And why didn't you provide a post from the "Ukrainian" side so I could actually see what we should try banning? It feels a little unfair to publicly put the division on blast without providing
examples from your own camp. Then you act surprised when I respond that either those kinds of posts are fair game for everyone, or they aren't for anyone at all.

Do you—or do you all—have the will to write posts that make the thread more meaningful and pleasant? If you don't, and most users over there don't either, how do you expect moderators to change that on your behalf? We could make a deal: any post that is meaningful and analytical, at least 500 words and free of fanboy hype, stays. Anyone posting below that criteria gets a 10-day cooling-off period. Look, obviously, the moderators won't run a massive crackdown like that, but I'm trying to show you that you guys are the ones who determine the quality.

Thirdly—what do you expect? If we give one side a bit more leeway, we’re going to get a flood of complaints from the other side. What, do you think they'll send us telegrams and flowers? I don't get why you're surprised or why this is confusing. I noticed that smiley face 🙄 in your last point; reading between the lines, you seem to think it's illogical not to give the "Ukrainian" side softer rules just because the "Russians" might complain. And you think that's not normal.
It's not about being "fair" to one side of the debate; it's just that according to you, we lack the heart to handle people crying because "they'll just whine." The moment you react that way, it tells me everything I need to know about how objective you're being with this complaint.

Look, I politely asked for your perspective, and I stand by that. If my suggestion was to look at this together to see how we can improve, and your only response is to question everything with 🙄 eye-rolls, then I'd suggest you skip this complaint altogether since you don't even know what you'd change to make the whole topic better.

And honestly, I'm not going to waste my time writing ten more posts just to answer your constant questioning of whether certain things fall under the moderators' domain.

Honestly, it’s a waste of effort. You’re better off sticking to the existing thread where you belong. Don't forget, that thread is really what you make of it, not just some thing controlled by the moderators. 😉 If you put your energy into that discussion instead, you might actually see some change.

Look, we just want people to call things what they actually are, in line with international law.
1. We need to call them terrorists. Taking international observers hostage and setting up barricades with masked paramilitary groups? That's terrorism, plain and simple.
2. Please drop the ban on comparing the situation in Ukraine to what happened during our Homeland War, because the parallels are incredibly obvious.
Why do you think we don't want to post over there? You’ve basically thrown us into the ring with our hands tied behind our backs. With the restrictions you've slapped on the front page, we have zero interest in participating in this circus. You'll just end up with a thread where three or four pro-Russian trolls run wild. As for the so-called pro-Ukrainian users, there are hardly any left because your restrictions pushed them away. I'm definitely sitting this one out.
One more thing. Freedom of speech is one thing, but posting content that breaks the law—as loneraven25 pointed out—is something else entirely.

Arthur Fowler83 said:Right after that, they had "advisors" dispatched from Washington to take the reins of the security services and military structures. It was all done out in the open—totally official. I don't think that even requires much proof at this point.

And you forgot one thing—Biden, the little sleeper who’s finally woken up, is openly seizing control of the energy sector.😁

edit: alright, here's a bit of constructive feedback—I'm feeling generous today.
My suggestion? Start aggressively cutting out the paid trolls—those mercenary spammers you can't have a rational conversation with, the ones who have been gutting political discourse for years now.
Or, just cut a deal with the interested parties: tell them you'll allow a maximum of three serious pioneers, youngsters, or fanatics to act as proxies for whatever foreign interest they represent.
That's how you actually clean up the political landscape.

Exactly, the issue here isn't actually about Ukraine, but rather how this specific thread is being moderated regarding Ukraine. I would appreciate it if that distinction were kept in mind.