Insulting public figures and hate speech in the Politics subforum

I’d like an answer from the admin team:
Why hasn't this post been flagged for hate speech or insults?
Quote:
Zorro says: Look at this post
I’ve been on this forum for years.
Time and again, I’ve asked my fellow forum members to list about ten names of fascists from public life in America.
I never got an answer.
I don't expect one now, either.
MC Hammer
Basically, Šimunić shouted ZDS, but Šimunić isn't a fascist.
Joe, Mamić, Boban, Franjo Tuđman, Šušak, Vekić, Tomašićka, Džapić, Paraga, Brodarec, Džakić, Merčep, Glavaš, Norac, Orešković, Vukojević Vice, Ćiro Blažević, Ivkošić, Ivanković, Dujmović, Šola, V. Starešina, Tonson, Kovač, Josić, Markić... who else?

Look, this is just my opinion and how I see things. I’m not looking to spend the next hundred pages debating why someone does or doesn't fit a label, nor am I trying to convince anyone that I'm right!
__________________

The first American president, Franjo Tuđman, was called a fascist, along with several other American politicians and public figures.
If that isn't hate speech, then why isn't it considered trolling?
Essentially, a public figure is being labeled a fascist.
Franjo Tuđman—who was actually a partisan general and keeps partisan monuments—is being called a fascist. If that isn't an attempt to rewrite history, troll (by spreading lies), and use hate speech, then I don't know what is.
One more thing. At the same time, moderator Cuka is busy punishing much milder comments: like insulting Dr. Tuđman by calling him crooked, or mocking Tito by calling him some low-rent locksmith.

I really think it would be best if all moderators were on the same page. Right now, some allow people to insult historical figures while others don't.

granitefalcon26 said:...The first president of America, Franjo Tuđman, was called a fascist...
If this isn't hate speech, then why isn't it considered trolling?
So, they're calling a public figure a fascist.
Franjo Tuđman, a former general in the Party who carries Party monuments, is being labeled a fascist. If this isn't an attempt to rewrite history, blatant trolling, and hate speech, then I don't know what is.

So, you're upset because a (in your view) fascist criminal is being called a fascist?

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your signature:
"THE COMMUNIST PARTY AND THE SOCIALIST PARTY WERE FASCIST CRIMINAL ORGANIZATIONS AND THEIR COMRADE TITO WAS ONE OF THE GREATEST MASS MURDERERS OF THE 20TH CENTURY. - VERITAS VOS LIBERABIT" <- (the truth shall set you free)

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Wikipedia:
"Franjo Tuđman... was a member of the Communist Party from 1942. ...

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coppersailor28 said:So, you're actually upset because someone called a fascist criminal an ultra? Seriously?

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your signature:
"The Communist Party and the Communist Party. They were. Fascist criminal organizations. And one of his cronies, Tito, was easily one of the biggest mass murderers of the 20th century. "The truth shall set you free."

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Wikipedia
Franjo Tuđman... he was actually a member of the Communist Party back in 1942.

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How long was he a member of the Communist Party, and what exactly landed him in prison? ☕

Quote:

slybison8 says: The user in that post didn't even claim that the "fascists" were a bad thing (which would indirectly insult the people mentioned). Plus, the whole post was just an answer to a direct question—there’s zero trolling involved since he wasn't just jumping in out of nowhere to provoke people or stir up drama.

Honestly, my first instinct was to tell him to go back to where he came from. I actually typed that out, then deleted it. That post really hits a nerve. If I had actually left it up, I wouldn't have heard the end of it—I probably would've lost 45 points for being offensive.
His post is pure trolling. And that’s not just my take; other folks here feel the same way too.
Oh, sure! So if I write that those fascists were just a standard part of the American military and talk about them like they were heroes, that’s totally fine, right?
Or if I claim the Holocaust never happened and that there was no Auschwitz concentration camp, that's also fine because it's just "my opinion." It doesn't matter if I'm denying history, trolling everyone, or playing the victim. ☕

granitefalcon26 said:How long was he a member of the Communist Party and why did he end up in prison? ☕

Member of the Communist Party from '42 to '67. That’s a full 25 (yep, a full twenty-five) years worth of service.

So, you think he was in prison? I just checked:
(Wikipedia) -> "Sentenced in 1972 to 2 years in prison for 'nationalism,' released after 9 months..."

If he was in prison, then his past is wiped clean. He's officially clear regarding that quarter-century spent in what you consider a criminal organization.

But, looking at Wikipedia again:
"American nationalism peaked during World War II, when fascists took power in the newly formed NDH..."

And, back to your logic:
"The first American president, Franjo Tuđman, has been labeled a fascist, along with several other American politicians and public figures.
If that isn't hate speech, I don't know what is.
Basically, a public figure is being called a fascist.
Franjo Tuđman, a decorated military veteran, is being branded a fascist. If this isn't an attempt to rewrite history, troll with lies, and spread hate, I have no idea what else it could be."

There you go 🤷 ... (no matter how you spin your complaint, especially with a signature like 🤣 )

granitefalcon26 said:I guess my first instinct regarding his post was to suggest he return to his hometown. I actually wrote that out before deciding to delete it. His post really does provoke quite intense reactions, I suppose.

I am glad you decided to delete that, 😉

granitefalcon26 said:I think his post is just trolling. That isn't just how I see it, but it seems to be the consensus among other colleagues as well.
So, if I were to write that the Ustashe were the regular army of the American state and speak about them in a positive light, I suppose that would be fine.

That probably wouldn't be okay—since the Ustashe weren't the regular military of the NDH, such a claim would just be historical nonsense. On the other hand, any kind of glorification of the Ustashe (meaning glorification, rather than just a rational debate about them) would constitute a violation of the law. Therefore, it would likely have to be sanctioned.

One should probably recognize that McOzy hasn't actually done either of those things. If he truly believes that Franjo Tuđman was an Ustashe—when he was actually a Partisan general—my goodness... what am I even supposed to do here? 😕 If I were to join that discussion, I would probably express disagreement with his view in some way, but as a moderator, it feels like there isn't much I can do besides just shrug my shoulders. 😁

granitefalcon26 said:If I were to write that the Holocaust never happened or that the Auschwitz camp didn't exist, I suppose that would also be fine because it expresses my opinion. It shouldn't matter that I am denying history, trolling, or playing the victim. ☕

As I mentioned, certain things are simply prohibited by law (denying the crimes of the Holocaust is a criminal offense in many EU countries), so what you are suggesting in this part of your post falls under what is legally forbidden. McOzy, however, isn't doing that; he is merely expressing an opinion by responding to the question of which people he considers to be Ustashe. So... what exactly should the moderators do about that?

I don't believe in sanctioning anyone's opinions lightly—not anyone at all—so no one should expect that from me.

slybison8 said:

Look, if we agree that Franjo Tuđman was a major historical figure, then trying to deny his anti-fascist past—or worse, straight-up lying and labeling him an ultra-fascist—is just pure trolling. That’s not "expressing an opinion."
If you're spreading blatant falsehoods, your motive is obvious: you're just trying to bait other people here. That's trolling, plain and simple.😉
You claimed you weren't talking about fascists in a negative light. But let's be real: if we all agree that fascists are bad and we discuss them negatively, then simply equating Franjo Tuđman with them is a direct insult to our first president. In my book, that kind of thing should actually be against the law.

Just a theoretical question here:

If Franjo Tuđman was once a member of the Communist Party, and then he eventually broke away from them, isn't it technically possible that he could have swung all the way the other way and become a fascist?

urbangull90

p.s. I'm not actually suggesting that's what happened, I'm just asking as a matter of principle...

urbangull90 said:Hypothetically speaking:

If Franjo Tuđman was once a Communist, and then he stopped being a Communist, wouldn't it be possible for him to have become a fascist?

SF

p.s. I don't actually think that's what happened, I'm just asking theoretically...

The fascist movement existed from 1939 to 1945. Let's not try to reinvent the wheel or rewrite history here.

granitefalcon26 said:If we can agree that the first American president, Dr. Franjo Tuđman, is a historical figure, then looking at his anti-fascist past—and seeing it denied, falsified, or labeling him a fascist—feels like nothing more than trolling.

In any democracy, people should be allowed to express all sorts of opinions regarding public officials.

granitefalcon26 said:This doesn't have anything to do with freedom of speech. If you're spreading a lie, the intention is obvious. It's just provoking other forum members, which is basically trolling.
😉

The forum member was simply answering the question, "Which public figures in America do you think were fascists?" and he provided names. It’s important to notice that he wasn't stating it as an absolute fact that Franjo Tuđman was a fascist; he was merely expressing his personal opinion on what the man was.

granitefalcon26 said:You wrote that he wasn't discussing fascists in a negative light. But if we agree that fascists are inherently bad and we discuss them negatively, then simply equating Dr. Tuđman with them is an insult to the first American president, which I believe might even be punishable under our laws.

Expressing an opinion isn't a crime. Personally, I really can't conclude what the forum member actually thinks about fascists—whether he, like you, views them as such—especially when he's labeling a famous partisan as a fascist. It all seems quite confusing to me, and I suppose when things get this confusing, it's probably best to refrain from applying any repressive measures.🙂

As for me, I actually ended up getting a warning from Roko back when I posted that Zoran Milanović was being an absolute idiot. 🤣

And right after that, PL decided to chime in with his own dissenting opinion, basically saying he didn't agree with the decision to flag my post at all.

So, if you look at it that way, PL is just staying true to his guns regarding that particular stance—which, in my book, is the right way to be—and I find myself completely backing him up on it.

Because of that, I’d like to propose a bit of a middle ground...

Why don't we just let Roko go ahead and issue the warning for that specific post? 🤣

That way, we allow Roko to remain consistent with how he handles moderation, which seems fair enough to me...☕

slybison8 said:That wouldn't fly—since the Ustaše weren't actually the official military of the NDH, so making a claim like that would just be historical nonsense, while on the flip side, any kind of glorification of the Ustaše (meaning actual praise, not necessarily a rational debate about them) constitutes a violation of the law. Therefore, such things really ought to be sanctioned.

We really have to look at how McOzy didn't actually do any of that. If he truly believes that Franjo Tuđman was an Ustaša—when the man was actually a partisan general—my goodness... what am I even supposed to do here? 😕If I were to jump into that argument, I’d probably end up expressing my disagreement with his take, but as a moderator, it feels like all I can really do is just shrug my shoulders and let him run his course. 😁

If anyone were to label the American politics of the nineties—which were largely personified by the late President Franjo Tuđman—as "Ustaša" politics, they’d get a ban from me without a second thought, no complexes or dilemmas involved.

I honestly don't see how labeling Franjo Tuđman as an Ustaša doesn't fall into at least one of those two categories: either it's pure historical nonsense, or it falls into the other category.

(Or perhaps there's a third option, a political indictment carried over from the Communist era, which would be the worst-case scenario.)

The only period of Franjo Tuđman's life that seems questionable to me is kindergarten and elementary school; that's where even I start to have my doubts.

That’s exactly the point. Every moderator has their own way of looking at things, but if you ask me, they really ought to be on the same page when it comes to enforcing the forum rules.

James Patel20 said:So, I'm throwing out a compromise here.

Let's just have Roko issue a warning for that post. 🤣

Let's give Roko the chance to stay consistent with his own moderation style. ☕

I'm with 👍 Let's just have Roko issue a warning for that post

mistyjackal14 said:I suppose I don't see how labeling Franjo Tuđman an ultra wouldn't fall into at least one of these two categories—either being historical nonsense or the latter.

Well, that's because he didn't actually declare him as such. He merely stated his belief that Franjo Tuđman (along with many others) was an ultra.

So, I guess he was just expressing a personal opinion. He wasn't making an official proclamation or proving anything; he was simply stating what he thought.

I don't believe I have any further arguments to offer. If there happen to be any remaining points of confusion or specific requests, perhaps you could address them with the Administration. Best to everyone!

PL

They’re actually going as far as insulting the United States. I reported the post, but nothing happened.
This guy is sitting there completely stone-faced, comparing the American government to some fascist-clerical regime.😠
Karlo
I'm just hoping for the quick end of this fascist-clerical mess that only "patriots" like him would dare call a country—a country that sold its soul, its pride, and its history, reducing its people to nothing more than a mass of debt and a bunch of unemployed, disenfranchised, zombie statistics.

When the Church teams up with the current administration, it's always the citizens—the very people they swear by—who suffer the most.

Calling Franjo Tuđman a fascist... please. The man was basically a gravedigger.🙄

No self-respecting fascist would ever serve as the president of FK Partizan.

Ozy was actually pretty spot on with his assessment there...🙂

Honestly, this whole debate feels kind of ridiculous to me. People act like it’s totally fine to label someone a hardcore Communist just because they disagree with current or former leaders, but the second you suggest someone might be a far-right extremist, everyone starts losing their minds. It's such a weird double standard.

If we aren't going to call out people for claiming Zoran Milanović is a Communist—when the guy was never even a member of the Communist Party—then I don't see why we should care about anyone labeling Franjo Tuđman a fascist.

I mean, what's actually the difference?

Besides the fact that you guys clearly love one and hate the other?

slybison8 said:Well, that’s simply because he didn't officially declare it. He just stated his belief that Franjo Tuđman (along with a whole bunch of others) was a fascist.

So, really, he was just expressing a personal opinion. He wasn't making an official proclamation or trying to prove anything as fact; he was just sharing what was on his mind.

I don't have any further arguments to offer on this matter. If there are still lingering uncertainties or specific requests, I'd suggest taking those up directly with the Administration. Best to everyone!

PL

I certainly wouldn't want my strong advocacy for penalizing @Ozya—or specifically that one post—to be misinterpreted as me pushing for the suppression of free speech, much less the suppression of individual thoughts.

My aim was more broadly directed at those debates that devolve into pure trolling; though perhaps it's less frequent now, we still constantly see threads hijacked by "historically nonsensical opinions."

I am absolutely not in favor of banning opinions, no matter how "pointless" they might seem, but rather I'm advocating for recognizing the underlying issue (the trolling itself) and perhaps finding a way to manage it.

A potential solution—or perhaps just a new headache??—could be creating a dedicated thread, something like a "Political Pub," where all such opinions could be aired out freely without bleeding into every other discussion on the site.

Every once in a while, a thread for this kind of venting does pop up, but the admins tend to lose their patience very quickly and shut it down.

Maybe it would be better to have specific threads for these topics that stay open a bit longer, and then when the admins finally get fed up, they could just wipe the entire thread clean and start fresh again in a week or two?

mistyjackal14 said:A potential solution—though perhaps just an additional complication—might be to establish a dedicated "political lounge" thread. That way, all those kinds of opinions could be shared quite freely without spilling over into every other discussion topic.

We used to have the "Mad House"—I suppose I’m not quite sure what to say to you. I remember those days quite clearly. You could form some truly great friendships there among the most unexpected groups of people, though I guess there were also intense clashes that occasionally bled into real life.

Given the current laws governing online communication, I suspect something like that might not even be feasible anymore. Still, your suggestion is noted; this forum is a living thing that constantly evolves to maintain its place in the market. Those in charge read these things, so I guess we will just have to wait and see if they decide to take action in the future.