Morals, ethics, and psychology

Look, I’m no legal expert when it comes to the US legal system, but inciting criminal activity is a huge no-no, and this whole situation feels like it’s heading straight there. He could have easily just said, "Hey, hire two employees instead of one and report the other guy." But faking paperwork? That’s fraud, plain and simple. Nobody should be encouraging that kind of shady business, especially not some moderator who claims to be a "psychiatrist" or whatever his actual title is.

Pillsbury said:Wait, seriously? You can actually get licensed and open your own psychotherapy practice? For real?
I can't believe I actually had to sit through that whole meeting. Total waste of time. Honestly, if they think just throwing more paperwork at us is going to fix the burnout, they're dreaming. It’s like when my old boss at Starbucks used to try and solve staffing shortages by giving us "wellness seminars" instead of just hiring more people. Like, thanks for the breathing exercises, but maybe just give me an extra hand on the morning rush? Anyway, back to the point. This new thing with the Psychology Practice Act is such a mess. It feels like they're just adding layers of bureaucracy for the sake of it. It doesn't change how we actually work with people; it just makes the admin side a nightmare. Just my two cents.

redharbor9 said:Sure, they can open an office for intellectual services and go ahead with psychotherapy, but that's a whole different ballgame. Just don't go putting that on my tab. 🙂

Pillsbury said:/cut
Look, I’m talking about this whole unlicensed practice thing for anyone thinking they can sneak into psychotherapy under the guise of providing "intellectual consulting" or whatever. If even one of those patients decides to call the cops on you, you could end up behind bars. Seriously. Under the Psychology Practice Act, that's straight-up practicing medicine without a license. I know, I know—you probably think I'm being dramatic, but I've given you fair warning. 🙂 Don't say I didn't warn you. 🙂

redharbor9 said:Nah, you can actually run psychotherapy under intellectual services. The thing is, between the Psychology Practice Act and how things work on the ground, there’s basically no way to tell the difference between actual psychotherapy and just basic counseling. 🙂

Look, the bottom line is you can't legally list psychotherapy as a service on your invoices. You just can't. But honestly? What you’re actually doing once you sit down with a client... nobody can really tell the difference from the paperwork. It’s the same thing. It’s like how psychologists write "counseling" on their bills because they aren't licensed for therapy, even though they're basically running therapy sessions all day long. 🙂

Pillsbury said:Basically, you can't call yourself a psychotherapist if you don't have a license. Doing it without one is essentially working under the table, which is totally illegal. It’s clearly laid out in the Psychology Practice Act to prevent people from practicing medicine without a license, and the law actually carries jail time for that kind of thing. But honestly, I'm done arguing about this. If you're smart, you'll get what I'm saying.

What I really want to know is—has anyone here actually done that PhD program at the state university, or is it just a joke? How was it?

redharbor9 said:That isn't working under the table. You have a registered business, you're issuing invoices, so everything is perfectly legal.

I only opened this thread because I wanted to see if I could tell someone they could open a boutique specialized in selling denim jackets, but then start selling meat out of the back room instead. Because, to quote the logic above—"That isn't working under the table. You have a registered business, you're issuing invoices, so everything is perfectly legal." Like, if the receipt says "denim jacket - $83" instead of "pork - deer weight xy kg - $83", who cares? A sale is a sale.

It’s a bit of a messy situation.

On one hand, there is this specific legal loophole where only medical doctors—not psychologists, for instance—are technically allowed to practice psychotherapy regardless of their training. While there are pushes to change this, it’s strictly an American regulatory quirk rather than some universal standard of our profession. It honestly feels more like the result of targeted lobbying than actual clinical necessity.

On the other hand, the line between "counseling" and "psychotherapy" is pretty blurry and, frankly, often just semantic. You could argue that any kind of counseling is a subset of psychotherapy. By that logic, a chat with your bartender or a long afternoon of fishing could be considered therapy. The issue only arises when someone starts branding fishing as "psychotherapy" to charge premium rates. It’s like how selling herbal tea isn't quackery, but calling it a prescription drug is. Similarly, it isn't illegal for a psychologist to apply techniques learned in psychotherapy training during a counseling session, provided they don't label it as such.

Pillsbury wants to be an actual psychologist doing real psychotherapy, not some bartender playing therapist behind a counter. So, this whole idea of her hiding under the guise of "counseling" just doesn't hold up legally.

As far as Intel is concerned, everything is perfectly legal... It all boils down to whether or not you're defrauding the client. If you aren't billing them specifically for psychotherapy, then there's no issue. The psychological counseling this individual received might be virtually indistinguishable from actual psychotherapy, but since he isn't licensed, it doesn't qualify as such under the Psychology Practice Act. Maybe it feels the same to the person receiving it... but nobody is claiming it is, and nobody is charging for it as such. So, frankly, I don't see anything wrong here... 🙂

Look, like I already said in that other thread—which clearly nobody bothered to read—here’s the deal:

1) In the USA, psychotherapist isn't actually an official job title. It’s not even in the occupational classification. Sure, psychiatrists can specialize in it, but you won't find "psychotherapist" listed as its own standalone profession. They're currently "working on it" regarding the legislation.

2) Legally speaking, psychotherapy can only be practiced by a psychiatrist within a psychiatric clinic. Psychologists are limited to psychological counseling.

3) Before the Psychology Practice Act was passed, psychologists wanting to go private (basically acting as psychotherapists) were lumped in with tarot readers and similar small businesses. My colleague checked, and they were literally categorized the exact same way. Even today, some psychologist-psychotherapists set up LLCs instead of private practices—probably just to dodge the association—and then provide what they call "psychological counseling" services.

4) Here’s the kicker: according to certain textbook definitions, psychotherapy is for "serious" issues, while counseling is for adjustment problems and daily functioning. But let's be real—you CANNOT draw a line between the two in practice because they overlap completely. That's common sense. That’s why psychologist-psychotherapists have to bill everything as "counseling." I bill as counseling. That’s what the law says we do. But the client gets exactly what they came for: someone to talk to.

5) As for everyone else... there are shady little businesses for every service imaginable... midwives, life coaches, "life schools"... people go there because they want to learn and talk. Psychotherapy is also about learning and talking. People just use different names and different methods... some are structured, some aren't... the client knows what they want, they look for it, and they get it. Sometimes the label doesn't even matter.

X) Honestly, I don't think this is even the real issue here. All of this was laid out in that thread, and the main target seems to be the moderator who wrote it.🙂

This whole thing isn't "clean" at all, and whenever things get messy like this, the moderators really need to step in and hit the brakes.

mellowlynx68 said:This isn't "clean" at all, and whenever things get murky, the moderators should step in and pull the brakes.

The legalities aren't clear-cut, but that’s out of the mods' hands.😁

Take my own field, for example. It isn't strictly regulated by law. You can operate through an association, or if you're running a small business or an LLC, you register under something similar or very broad. There’s nothing illegal about it; there really isn't another way to do it.

Nobody is suggesting anything illegal here. In fact, the goal is to advise psychologists on how to work within the framework of an underspecified Psychology Practice Act until it gets fixed, ensuring everything stays above board.

The comparisons being made don't hold water. Selling meat under the table is illegal, and working off the books is illegal, but psychological counseling isn't. It’s illegal for a PT to use the title of a psychologist, but it's fine if they don't use that specific designation. It's like how it might be illegal for a certain brand to use a specific label, but they can still produce the product under a different one. Even if there's a theoretical line between PT and psych, in reality, that boundary is pretty blurry.

Basically, it's the exact opposite: we're advising people on how to follow the law rather than go against it, even if the law itself is a mess to begin with.

Elizabeth Davis said:Pillsbury wants to be a psychologist and practice psychotherapy, not a bartender offering "therapy," so this idea of masking it as counseling doesn't sit right with me from a legal standpoint.

That user is just a troll clone looking for a reaction. We've answered those questions a dozen times already. They just ask them in a completely nonsensical, disconnected way—throwing out technical terms and scientific jargon, then pushing nonsense even after it's been explained why it makes no sense.

redharbor9 said:Look, if anyone actually bothered to read the original thread—which, let's be honest, nobody seems to have done—it was explained pretty clearly a few times already: here’s the deal:

1) In the USA, psychotherapist isn't actually a recognized profession; it’s just not listed in the official job classifications. You can have a psychiatrist who specializes in psychotherapy, sure, but "psychotherapist" doesn't exist as its own standalone career path. There’s legislation currently being worked on regarding this.

2) Legally speaking, psychotherapy can only be practiced by a psychiatrist working within a psychiatric clinic. Psychologists are limited to providing psychological counseling.

3) Before the Psychology Practice Act was passed, psychologists who wanted to run their own private practices (basically acting as psychotherapists) were lumped in with all sorts of random small businesses, like those tarot reading stalls you see at fairs. I remember looking into it, and they were literally categorized right alongside them. Nowadays, some psychologist-psychotherapists will set up an LLC instead of a private practice—probably just to avoid dealing with the licensing boards—and then they provide what is officially termed "psychological counseling."

4) Here’s the crux of it: according to certain academic definitions, psychotherapy is meant for "serious" issues and complex cases, while counseling is for adjustment problems and day-to-day functioning. But in the real world, you absolutely cannot draw a line between the two; they overlap completely, and that's just common sense. That’s why psychologist-psychotherapists are forced to bill their services as counseling just to stay compliant. Personally, I write down "counseling." It’s what the law says we do. But the client gets exactly what they came for: someone to talk to.

5) As for everything else out there... well, you've got all kinds of small businesses offering all sorts of things—life coaches, wellness retreats, spiritual gurus... people go to them because they want to learn and talk. Psychotherapy is also about learning and talking. People just call it different things and approach it differently... some are more structured, some are more laid back... but the person knows what they need, they seek it out, and they get it. Sometimes the label doesn't even matter that much.

X) Anyway, personally, I don't think this is really the core issue here. Everything has been laid out in that thread, and honestly, it feels like the main target is just the moderator who wrote it. 🙂

That’s exactly how it works on the ground.

Everything is perfectly legal.

The country would be a whole lot healthier, more productive, and happier if we had way more constructive work like this. Healthcare would actually be cheaper, too—we'd see fewer prescriptions for antidepressants, anti-anxiety meds, antipsychotics, or those "mood stabilizers" that are basically just anti-epileptic drugs. We'd have fewer sick days, fewer hospitalizations, and fewer unnecessary medical procedures that just clog up and slow down the entire system. All of that could be improved through these kinds of "interventions."

The reality is that the system (and by "the system," I mean the government) still hasn't figured out how to recognize the value of this kind of work or properly respect the professionals doing it—especially the non-medical types, like psychologists.
It’s probably just a leftover relic from an era when politicians stood up in D.C. and told the nation that "brain drain" was just a minor inconvenience.

Come on, let's get this changed.
The goal is to stop living in this gray area and finally allow people to list exactly what work was actually performed on their accounts.
You guys are smart, so I'm sure you can figure out how to make it happen.
Honestly, I don't think anyone could disagree with an initiative aimed at fixing this.
👍

So, why is there such a massive pile of laws and regulations out there that completely ignore what actual experts think in so many different areas? In the real world, things don't just run "by the book" because there’s a mountain of conflicting interests, lobbyists, and noise getting in the way. Unfortunately, expert opinions and even best practices from abroad aren't enough to move the needle; at the end of the day, everything basically comes down to political maneuvering.

mellowlynx68 said:Look, just fix it.
Get rid of this gray area so people can actually get credit on their accounts for the work they've done.
You guys are smart, I assume you figure out how to do that.
I don't think anyone could disagree with the goal behind the initiative mentioned in the last post.
👍

First, they drafted this psychotherapy bill, and apparently, anyone with a liberal arts degree could call themselves a psychotherapist. Nobody bothered to check which majors even counted, so it was a total mess... 😍 then Milinovic (the Health Secretary from the Republican Party) put together a commission made up strictly of doctors, making it pretty obvious where this was headed... and now we're stuck with everyone pissed off because everybody wants their own slice of the pie. etc.

Bottom line: 🙂

Seriously, you’ve got to get inside their heads... use some 🤣 psychological tactics... if you know what I mean 🙂.

Anyway, I'm rooting for you.