How to fix Kyphosis and improve posture?

urbanwalker72 said:The concept of learning is quite convenient in this context. If the therapy succeeds, the practitioner takes the credit; if it fails, the blame is shifted to the client for failing to learn properly.

And if their condition returns to its previous state in ten days or a month, it is simply dismissed as them forgetting.

It is a win-win situation. This is precisely why such therapies are so difficult to investigate scientifically. They aren't exposed to the risk of being wrong, which allows them to always claim they were right.

Don't mistake my position for being against movement training. As someone who is a member of GymnasticBodies and has studied both Primal Move and the Ido Portal method, I know that it works. I am a proponent of movement-based training and the art of learning motion. In fact, I could likely teach you more movements than you could teach me.

The issue arises when pseudoscience begins to take hold. Any procedure that claims to be scientific must possess falsifiability:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

With this specific therapy, that principle is absent. There is never any mention of how one might theoretically prove that the therapy does not work.

That is the fundamental requirement for testing any hypothesis within the realm of science.

Haha...Yeah, right.
No thanks. For me, quality matters way more than quantity.
N'joy :-)

The facts speak for themselves🙂

urbanwalker72 said:The concept of learning is quite convenient in this context. If the therapy succeeds, the practitioner takes the credit; if it fails, the blame is shifted to the client for failing to learn properly.

And if their condition returns to its previous state in ten days or a month, it is simply dismissed as them forgetting.

It is a win-win situation. This is precisely why such therapies are so difficult to investigate scientifically. They aren't exposed to the risk of being wrong, which allows them to always claim they were right.

Don't mistake my position for being against movement training. As someone who is a member of GymnasticBodies and has studied both Primal Move and the Ido Portal method, I know that it works. I am a proponent of movement-based training and the art of learning motion. In fact, I could likely teach you more movements than you could teach me.

The issue arises when pseudoscience begins to take hold. Any procedure that claims to be scientific must possess falsifiability:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

With this specific therapy, that principle is absent. There is never any mention of how one might theoretically prove that the therapy does not work.

That is the fundamental requirement for testing any hypothesis within the realm of science.

No.
With somatics and differentiation, the cool thing is that you feel the impact almost immediately after an active session. The more severe your postural issues are, the more pronounced that positive shift feels—and man, it’s a great sensation. You don't even realize how tight you actually were until your brain finally recognizes what relaxed muscles actually feel like.
Active therapy combined with movement learning brings you right to the center—you can see that in the examples provided—but from there, it’s really up to you if you actually stick with the exercises to improve your proprioception and maintain that optimal balance.

urbanwalker72 said:The concept of learning is quite convenient in this context. If the therapy succeeds, the practitioner takes the credit; if it fails, the blame is shifted to the client for failing to learn properly.

And if their condition returns to its previous state in ten days or a month, it is simply dismissed as them forgetting.

It is a win-win situation. This is precisely why such therapies are so difficult to investigate scientifically. They aren't exposed to the risk of being wrong, which allows them to always claim they were right.

Don't mistake my position for being against movement training. As someone who is a member of GymnasticBodies and has studied both Primal Move and the Ido Portal method, I know that it works. I am a proponent of movement-based training and the art of learning motion. In fact, I could likely teach you more movements than you could teach me.

The issue arises when pseudoscience begins to take hold. Any procedure that claims to be scientific must possess falsifiability:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

With this specific therapy, that principle is absent. There is never any mention of how one might theoretically prove that the therapy does not work.

That is the fundamental requirement for testing any hypothesis within the realm of science.

If he slips back into that old state, it just means he isn't actually working on himself—or putting in the effort to improve his own health.
When you're centered, your proprioception kicks in—it basically guides you to stop moving the wrong way, which is usually what caused the problem in the first place.
Honestly, I think once you actually experience that kind of fluidity and ease of movement—the way it’s supposed to feel—it's pretty much impossible to go back to how things were before.

urbanwalker72 said:The concept of learning is quite convenient in this context. If the therapy succeeds, the practitioner takes the credit; if it fails, the blame is shifted to the client for failing to learn properly.

And if their condition returns to its previous state in ten days or a month, it is simply dismissed as them forgetting.

It is a win-win situation. This is precisely why such therapies are so difficult to investigate scientifically. They aren't exposed to the risk of being wrong, which allows them to always claim they were right.

Don't mistake my position for being against movement training. As someone who is a member of GymnasticBodies and has studied both Primal Move and the Ido Portal method, I know that it works. I am a proponent of movement-based training and the art of learning motion. In fact, I could likely teach you more movements than you could teach me.

The issue arises when pseudoscience begins to take hold. Any procedure that claims to be scientific must possess falsifiability:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

With this specific therapy, that principle is absent. There is never any mention of how one might theoretically prove that the therapy does not work.

That is the fundamental requirement for testing any hypothesis within the realm of science.

There’s no philosophy here—none of that pseudo-scientific nonsense. It's just interdisciplinary work that understands movement isn't just about muscles and bones; it's happening in the brain. Any issue you run into is really just one small part of a much larger pattern of locomotor system dysfunction.
Once you actually feel and see the physical results in your own body, there’s no better proof than that. Just give it a shot—it'll make your Ido Portal method and Primal Move look much smoother and more effortless.
Sometimes, overthinking things just leads you to lose sight of what actually matters.

Question:

Does "hyperlordosis of the L spine" mean "anterior pelvic tilt," or if not, what does it actually signify?
Also, what would "PLM tense, stronger on the left" specifically imply when describing someone's locomotor status?

Thanks to everyone who can help me out with this. 🙂

Check out this useful book—grab a copy of Aleksandar Loven.

It covers posture and stuff, among other things.

quietpilot87 said:Check out this useful book—grab a copy of Aleksandar Loven.

It covers posture and stuff, among other things.

I have a suggestion of my own.

Ben Goldacre: 'Bad Science'.

"You cannot use reason to convince people to abandon beliefs they did not acquire through reason in the first place."

urbanwalker72 said:I have a suggestion of my own.

Ben Goldacre: 'Bad Science'.

"You cannot use reason to convince people to abandon beliefs they did not acquire through reason in the first place."

If you're talking about Lowen—yeah, he leans a bit toward the alternative stuff—but this specific book isn't actually bad. Honestly. 🙂

Hyperlordosis is basically just a slight curve in your lumbar spine—stretching from the first L vertebra down to the top of the sacrum. Depending on how your pelvis sits in relation to your femur, you’ll be looking at either an anterior or posterior tilt.
I'm not sure what PLM refers to—it might point toward some scoliosis issues. You should definitely ask a doctor to explain exactly what that means and how it happened.

Since we're talking about book recommendations, here’s some solid technical reading for anyone dealing with rounded shoulders or posture issues. Best 🙂

Vernon B. Brooks: The neural basis of motor control
Crossman and Neary: Neuroanatomy
Hans Selye: The stress of life

rustybadger42 said:Hyperlordosis is basically just a slight curve in your lumbar spine—stretching from the first L vertebra down to the top of the sacrum. Depending on how your pelvis sits in relation to your femur, you’ll be looking at either an anterior or posterior tilt.
I'm not sure what PLM refers to—it might point toward some scoliosis issues. You should definitely ask a doctor to explain exactly what that means and how it happened.

Since we're talking about book recommendations, here’s some solid technical reading for anyone dealing with rounded shoulders or posture issues. Best 🙂

Vernon B. Brooks: The neural basis of motor control
Crossman and Neary: Neuroanatomy
Hans Selye: The stress of life

Thanks a lot, rustybadger42. 👍
My doctor told me everything was fine regarding my posture (?) and suggested physical therapy for that minor trauma I sustained, but later I noticed he actually noted hyperlordosis in my medical history. Since I don't have the cash for that PT package right now—and besides, it doesn't even hurt anymore—I want to handle the exercises, stretching, and rolling myself to fix my posture.
I assume I have anterior pelvic tilt because my glutes stick out and my posterior chain is incredibly weak compared to my quads.

Walter Ross10 said:Thanks a lot, rustybadger42. 👍
My doctor told me everything was fine regarding my posture (?) and suggested physical therapy for that minor trauma I sustained, but later I noticed he actually noted hyperlordosis in my medical history. Since I don't have the cash for that PT package right now—and besides, it doesn't even hurt anymore—I want to handle the exercises, stretching, and rolling myself to fix my posture.
I assume I have anterior pelvic tilt because my glutes stick out and my posterior chain is incredibly weak compared to my quads.

The root cause here is that constant tension in your lower back—it’s basically pulling the back of your pelvis upward, which forces your hips back and your head forward. Plus, because those muscles in the back of your legs are so tight, it actually makes knee extension a struggle. That’s why your quadriceps end up absorbing all your body weight—weight that should really be being transferred into the ground through extended legs—which just makes standing feel like a chore.
It’s fixed by relaxing the entire posterior chain, from your head down to your pelvis, allowing the pelvis to level out with the floor so your posture can finally return to a balanced, efficient state.

Nicole Ross said:The root cause here is that constant tension in your lower back—it’s basically pulling the back of your pelvis upward, which forces your hips back and your head forward. Plus, because those muscles in the back of your legs are so tight, it actually makes knee extension a struggle. That’s why your quadriceps end up absorbing all your body weight—weight that should really be being transferred into the ground through extended legs—which just makes standing feel like a chore.
It’s fixed by relaxing the entire posterior chain, from your head down to your pelvis, allowing the pelvis to level out with the floor so your posture can finally return to a balanced, efficient state.

Thanks, Nicole! 🙂
Do I achieve that release through specific back stretches or perhaps rolling movements?
And I assume I need to strengthen the glutes and hamstrings at the same time?

Roughly how long does it take to return to that balanced state if someone trains daily? Also, I'm not sure if I can continue my classic strength training during this period (excluding anything that puts direct load on the lower back).

I'll get back to you on that private message
It’s simple enough—but don't go thinking it's actually easy :-)

But honestly, with postural imbalances like these, trying to build strength or start lifting heavy weights just isn't smart. I mean, how can you even attempt to execute a move with proper kinesiological form when everything is so out of whack?

Walter Ross10

I get why you’re struggling with what Nicole Ross suggested—that idea about not strengthening the posterior chain—since it feels totally backward compared to what you think you need to do. If you want, I can try to explain my take on what's actually happening with your movement patterns and why I think following that advice might be the way to go... just so you can see if it clicks for you. 🙂

Talk to me 🙂

Walter Ross10 said:Talk to me 🙂

Regarding your lordosis—in your case, that lumbar hyperlordosis is actually caused by a reflex known in medicine as the Landau reflex (think of a baby lying on its stomach who instinctively lifts its legs and head into a slight reverse C-shape). It’s a natural reflex that pops up whenever our bodies prepare for action—like the body getting ready for a "go" command. By constantly repeating these types of movements, the pelvis tilts forward (that tilt you mentioned)—the body tries to compensate by shifting the hips and head backward. You probably have a ribcage and abdomen that protrude slightly forward, too. Muscles work through contraction to shorten and tighten, while relaxation lets them loosen and lengthen; every agonist has an antagonist. With this kind of posture, the muscles in your front are being stretched out, while the ones in the back are tightening up to fight gravity. Imagine an arrow bow... if you take a stick, bend it, and tie the ends together with a string, you get a bow. The tighter you pull that string, the bigger the bow becomes. That’s what’s happening to your body—you're tilting those hips forward, throwing off your balance, and shifting all your weight onto your quads. The pain you're feeling is a direct result of those lumbar muscles being stuck in a sort of sensorimotor amnesia—they are constantly activated, exhausted, and tight. Eventually, the brain accepts this constant activity as the "normal" state. This adaptation causes the bones to shift out of their natural alignment due to the constant muscle contraction, creating a postural issue—and when you move, you might even feel a nerve pinch or a clicking sensation.
Basically, the muscles in your posterior kinetic chain aren't weak or loose—they're tight like a drawn bowstring, and they need to be relaxed (if you let go of the string, the bow shrinks; if you release it entirely, the stick straightens out). And you won't achieve muscle relaxation through what everyone thinks is helpful—stretching. If you try to force a tight muscle to stretch, it’ll just fight back with more contraction, making the tension even worse.
That’s why I wouldn't recommend lifting heavy or doing anything intense until you fix your posture first.
You should probably re-read what we discussed at the start of this thread about how stretching and strengthening affect muscles in SMA—those muscles aren't actually weak or atrophied like most people assume.

OK, thanks. I see the cause, but I'm not sure about the solution.
I read through the start of this thread and I'm honestly even more confused than before. It helps that I have better quality input now that my back isn't such a massive issue, whereas I was just skimming everything earlier.

But let's get down to brass tacks: can my issue actually be fixed by relaxing or strengthening certain muscles to balance out my pelvic tilt? If you think that won't work—unless we're talking somatic therapy—then how are other people successfully tackling this with conventional methods?
I'll be completely blunt; if I had to choose a path, I’d rather go to Ales than some standard physical therapist (assuming the cost was similar or even slightly cheaper). However, I'm not in a financial position for either right now, so I have to help myself as much as possible. For the time being, at least.

Walter Ross10 said:OK, thanks. I see the cause, but I'm not sure about the solution.
I read through the start of this thread and I'm honestly even more confused than before. It helps that I have better quality input now that my back isn't such a massive issue, whereas I was just skimming everything earlier.

But let's get down to brass tacks: can my issue actually be fixed by relaxing or strengthening certain muscles to balance out my pelvic tilt? If you think that won't work—unless we're talking somatic therapy—then how are other people successfully tackling this with conventional methods?
I'll be completely blunt; if I had to choose a path, I’d rather go to Ales than some standard physical therapist (assuming the cost was similar or even slightly cheaper). However, I'm not in a financial position for either right now, so I have to help myself as much as possible. For the time being, at least.

It absolutely can be done, and there are several ways to go about it—though, if you ask me, the somatic approach has proven to be the simplest, most painless, fastest, and most lasting method out there.
You can fix pelvic tilt by strengthening the anterior muscles, which brings about a temporary balance, but honestly, it's much harder to maintain that state, and the risk of injury is significantly higher. But here's the real kicker with the "classic" approach: because you're dealing with tightness in both the front and back of the body caused by constant strengthening and stretching, you end up forcing a torso rotation. This puts massive pressure on the spine, which long-term leads to things like herniated discs, spinal wear and tear, sciatica, and all sorts of issues with the knees and feet—all because they're trying to compensate for that forced reduction in torso rotation.

Walter Ross10 said:OK, thanks. I see the cause, but I'm not sure about the solution.
I read through the start of this thread and I'm honestly even more confused than before. It helps that I have better quality input now that my back isn't such a massive issue, whereas I was just skimming everything earlier.

But let's get down to brass tacks: can my issue actually be fixed by relaxing or strengthening certain muscles to balance out my pelvic tilt? If you think that won't work—unless we're talking somatic therapy—then how are other people successfully tackling this with conventional methods?
I'll be completely blunt; if I had to choose a path, I’d rather go to Ales than some standard physical therapist (assuming the cost was similar or even slightly cheaper). However, I'm not in a financial position for either right now, so I have to help myself as much as possible. For the time being, at least.

That's because it feels like black magic.

But let's get down to brass tacks; can my issue actually be resolved by relaxing or strengthening specific muscles to balance out the pelvic tilt? If you think it can't be—aside from somatic therapy—then how have other people managed to fix this using conventional methods?

According to him, it's not possible... yet according to others, it is.

I'll be completely honest; if I had to choose a path, I think I would seek out Nicole Ross over a traditional physical therapist (assuming the cost was similar or even slightly lower), but right now I just don't have the financial means for either option, so I'm trying to help myself as much as I possibly can. At least for the time being.

If you ever do decide to go, definitely see Nicole Ross. I'm genuinely curious to hear what happens. Honestly, if I were in your shoes, I'd prefer her too, because I need to learn new techniques. I've already mastered the old ones.

Nicole Ross said:It absolutely can be done, and there are several ways to go about it—though, if you ask me, the somatic approach has proven to be the simplest, most painless, fastest, and most lasting method out there.
You can fix pelvic tilt by strengthening the anterior muscles, which brings about a temporary balance, but honestly, it's much harder to maintain that state, and the risk of injury is significantly higher. But here's the real kicker with the "classic" approach: because you're dealing with tightness in both the front and back of the body caused by constant strengthening and stretching, you end up forcing a torso rotation. This puts massive pressure on the spine, which long-term leads to things like herniated discs, spinal wear and tear, sciatica, and all sorts of issues with the knees and feet—all because they're trying to compensate for that forced reduction in torso rotation.

Nicole Ross, is it possible to correct significant anterior pelvic tilt through squats and deadlifts🙂 ?

Walter Ross10 said:OK, thanks. I see the cause, but I'm not sure about the solution.
I read through the start of this thread and I'm honestly even more confused than before. It helps that I have better quality input now that my back isn't such a massive issue, whereas I was just skimming everything earlier.

But let's get down to brass tacks: can my issue actually be fixed by relaxing or strengthening certain muscles to balance out my pelvic tilt? If you think that won't work—unless we're talking somatic therapy—then how are other people successfully tackling this with conventional methods?
I'll be completely blunt; if I had to choose a path, I’d rather go to Ales than some standard physical therapist (assuming the cost was similar or even slightly cheaper). However, I'm not in a financial position for either right now, so I have to help myself as much as possible. For the time being, at least.

Read it again. 🙂

Yeah,relaxing those posterior muscles will reduce tension, which allows the pelvis to realign (exactly what Ales told you). It might be worth noting that stretching is also just applying force to a muscle—it doesn't actually lengthen it, it contracts it, in case that confuses things. Basically, the classic approach of stretching/strengthening can have a counter-effect; the situation seems to improve temporarily because collateral muscles activate and it feels like the body is balanced. But then the problem resurfaces after a while—usually showing up as pain in the shoulders, knees, or feet, along with even more pelvic rigidity. How long it takes for the body to adapt and show these compensation consequences is different for everyone... it depends on motility, movement quality, and muscle condition. To give you an example... a colleague told me yesterday that after going through piles of physical therapy, blocks, electrodes, and finally being so disappointed she sought help from an established chiropractor, the only thing that actually relieves her lower spine pain and relaxes her back is a pelvic relaxation exercise I suggested she try. Now, that exercise won't change the natural pattern of movement that’s at a subconscious level—the one the brain has adapted to, which caused the SMA in the first place—and for that part, active clinical somatics is the best therapy (for now). If you can't access that, doing the exercises the way I suggested will still do you way more good than traditional stretching and strengthening opposing sides. Try it for a while and you'll see if the problem pops up again during squats.

Fine, regardless, I don't really get it. 😁
I went to see a physiatrist, and working alongside a physical therapist, they pitched me this whole "package" $800. It’s a lot to swallow right now, especially since he ended by saying if things don't improve, I'll need to go get imaging and all that... Honestly, the pain is gone, and I don't think my situation is even that dire. For now, I’m going to try to help myself using conventional methods as much as I can.
rustybadger42, you mentioned in your last post: "If you can't afford that, following the suggested way of exercising will still do way more for you than just classic stretching and strengthening the opposite sides. Stick with it for a while, and then you'll see if the issue resurfaces during squats."

What exactly is this suggested way?