CNN Indianapolis Motor Speedway 09/08/2013

stormybadger8 said:You can't take these FP's times as gospel...

Real speed shows up during qualifying and the actual race...
And then in the race, the slower Ferrari finishes 9.3 seconds behind Sebastian Vettel—which is roughly 9.3/53 laps = 0.175 sec—while the lead Ferrari is only 5.4/53 = 0.101 seconds back. ☕

Ferrari definitely had the pace, but they completely botched the tactics and blew a massive opportunity right when both Red Bull Racing cars were struggling mid-race...

Or did Felipe Massa suddenly transform into a superstar driver just as fast as Fernando Alonso?
Believe whatever you want.😁

Those are the only times you can actually count as relevant. You can't just grab times from some other track or whatever. And if the FP times aren't relevant, how did you decide Ferrari was that good? (based on the situation right before the race)

Real speed shows up in qualifying and the race...
And then in the race, the second slower Ferrari finishes 9.3 seconds behind Vettel, or if you do the math, 9.3/53 (laps) = 0.175 sec, while the first Ferrari is only at 5.4/53 = 0.101 ☕

Ferrari definitely had the pace, but they totally botched the tactics and missed their shot—especially when both Red Bulls were having issues during the race...

Or did Massa suddenly turn into this incredible driver who’s just as fast as Alonso all of a sudden...
Think whatever you want.😁

You're claiming true speed is seen in qualifying and the race. Fine. Who took pole in qualifying, and who started P2? The Red Bull drivers.
Who won the race? A Red Bull driver. Based on that, Red Bull had the better car than Ferrari.
So now we have a situation where Red Bull was better in FP, qualifying, and the race compared to Ferrari, yet you're arguing Ferrari had the winning car? On what basis?🤷
And before you start rambling about Ferrari's sloppy tactics and incompetence (which could honestly be why Red Bull looked so dominant), the reason I'm bringing this up is that Alonso was defending his position at the end of the race against Webber, who was being told to shift gears early. So you've got Webber having to baby his car while pressing Alonso, whose car is working perfectly fine. I think—and I bet most people agree—that Alonso is just a slightly higher quality driver than Webber, and the only reason Webber was putting on the pressure is because the Red Bull was the faster car (even if Webber had a better fastest lap than Alonso). I'm not saying it was super ultra dominant, but it was faster.

stormybadger8 said:Seriously, a brilliant move that every single one of those geniuses deserves. 👍

There’s one thing that absolutely drives me crazy about that move—well, not even him directly, just all the mess swirling around him because of it.

From what I saw, he was taken out by a wheel off the track... not entirely sure if it was both cars or just one of them. 🤷
Don't get me wrong—I’m not saying he deserved that penalty. Not even in his wildest dreams, regardless of whether both wheels were off the track or not. Honestly, the move was brilliant. If anyone deserved a penalty there, it would've been Mark Webber for pushing him out, not Fernando Alonso.

I’m honestly sick of this damn inconsistent officiating. They absolutely screwed Romain Grosjean over with that pit lane penalty—he didn't deserve that move in the duel one bit.👎
And just like that, it popped up on the screen for everyone to see...

Seriously, it’s high time someone called these guys out and actually did something about it.😳

I can't even begin to process this. Give me a break. stormybadger8 says:
Red Bull Racing is absolutely killing it.🙏
Two cars, under three seconds, all within a thirty-second window. Just do it. 🙏

What an incredible lineup. Honestly, there isn't a better group on the grid. 🙏
All they got for it was a podium spot for Webber, maybe even handing Vettel the win on a silver platter...
If Alonso hadn't wasted all that energy babysitting Mark Webber, he might have actually had a shot at catching Sebastian Vettel.

The issue isn't the refs; it's the people bashing them without having a clue how the basic F1 rules actually work.

I feel like I've spent half this season explaining when a driver is actually off-track versus staying within the lines, but hey, whatever... let me break it down again using the Grosjean/Massa and Maestro/Webber examples...

Grosjean overtaking Massa


Maestro overtaking Webber


So, what's the takeaway here?
In the first shot, you see Grosjean with all four wheels way past the white line marking the edge of the track. That means he clearly left the circuit while passing Massa, which breaks FIA rules, making his penalty totally justified.

In the second shot, you see Maestro crossing the white line with maybe one or two wheels, while the other two stay on the asphalt. Per FIA regulations, that counts as being on the track, so there’s no reason for a penalty, which is why nothing happened and nobody even debated it.

Bottom line... what does one situation have to do with the other to claim the refs are being inconsistent? Absolutely nothing. 🤣

Nancy Scott5 said:Those are the only times you can actually count as relevant. You can't just grab times from some other track or whatever. And if the FP times aren't relevant, how did you decide Ferrari was that good? (based on the situation right before the race)

Real speed shows up in qualifying and the race...
And then in the race, the second slower Ferrari finishes 9.3 seconds behind Vettel, or if you do the math, 9.3/53 (laps) = 0.175 sec, while the first Ferrari is only at 5.4/53 = 0.101 ☕

Ferrari definitely had the pace, but they totally botched the tactics and missed their shot—especially when both Red Bulls were having issues during the race...

Or did Massa suddenly turn into this incredible driver who’s just as fast as Alonso all of a sudden...
Think whatever you want.😁

You're claiming true speed is seen in qualifying and the race. Fine. Who took pole in qualifying, and who started P2? The Red Bull drivers.
Who won the race? A Red Bull driver. Based on that, Red Bull had the better car than Ferrari.
So now we have a situation where Red Bull was better in FP, qualifying, and the race compared to Ferrari, yet you're arguing Ferrari had the winning car? On what basis?🤷
And before you start rambling about Ferrari's sloppy tactics and incompetence (which could honestly be why Red Bull looked so dominant), the reason I'm bringing this up is that Alonso was defending his position at the end of the race against Webber, who was being told to shift gears early. So you've got Webber having to baby his car while pressing Alonso, whose car is working perfectly fine. I think—and I bet most people agree—that Alonso is just a slightly higher quality driver than Webber, and the only reason Webber was putting on the pressure is because the Red Bull was the faster car (even if Webber had a better fastest lap than Alonso). I'm not saying it was super ultra dominant, but it was faster.

The fact that Webber couldn't pass him is proof enough that he absolutely had a shot at winning. ☕

If he had qualified P3 on the grid (which was anything but an impossible mission...), considering how much better Ferrari's starts were compared to Red Bull, plus the fact that Red Bull eats tires way faster than Ferrari and they generally behave in opposite ways...
Red Bull is fast at the start of a stint but falls off toward the end, while Ferrari is slower initially but picks up speed later and the tires last longer...
On top of that, Red Bull definitely isn't a car capable of overtaking Ferrari even with DRS. 😉

So, with a solid qualifying and a decent start, a win was totally within reach.
Even if nothing else, he could have been breathing down their necks. After that initial advantage wore off and Alonso settled into P2, it was just too late.

At the end of the day, I didn't get the impression that Red Bull was the fastest... it looked like that at Spa, but definitely not at Monza.
Maybe it wasn't even Ferrari, but Kimi and Hamilton were insanely quick—it's just that they completely blew it in qualifying.
Look, after all that nonsense with their early pit stops, there's one interesting thing... Hamilton and Kimi were steadily chipping away at Vettel's lead and putting together a whole string of faster laps than him, all while dealing with dirty air and a bunch of overtakes...

Edward Howard2 said:The issue isn't the refs; it's the people bashing them without having a clue how the basic F1 rules actually work.

I feel like I've spent half this season explaining when a driver is actually off-track versus staying within the lines, but hey, whatever... let me break it down again using the Grosjean/Massa and Maestro/Webber examples...

Grosjean overtaking Massa


Maestro overtaking Webber


So, what's the takeaway here?
In the first shot, you see Grosjean with all four wheels way past the white line marking the edge of the track. That means he clearly left the circuit while passing Massa, which breaks FIA rules, making his penalty totally justified.

In the second shot, you see Maestro crossing the white line with maybe one or two wheels, while the other two stay on the asphalt. Per FIA regulations, that counts as being on the track, so there’s no reason for a penalty, which is why nothing happened and nobody even debated it.

Bottom line... what does one situation have to do with the other to claim the refs are being inconsistent? Absolutely nothing. 🤣

How are they not related?
In both cases, you have a driver staying on track being pushed wide by the guy trying to pass him...

The big difference is that Massa shoved Grosjean completely off, whereas Webber gave Alonso a little more room—though still not enough for Alonso to keep all four wheels on the asphalt. Whether it's 4 wheels or 2 wheels off is just the result of that contact...

So, I really don't see how the guy being pushed is at fault here...
And regarding passing with two wheels off? Just look at Indy—they used to penalize that and order drivers to give positions back back in 2008. I was actually rewatching that race today.

Several drivers in basically identical Alonso/Webber situations (just two wheels off, if I remember correctly, maybe even the exact same corner) were ordered by the FIA to hand those positions back.😉

Raymond Thomas5 said:We’re going to need a bit of luck—and maybe a few DNFs from Seb or something to win the championship

Fernando Alonso admitted he needs his Formula 1 title rival Sebastian Vettel to run into some trouble during the rest of the season
if he actually wants a shot at that 2013 championship.//
Maestro

me?
The guy is just saying out loud what everyone else is thinking and praying for, but they don't have the guts to actually admit it... and hey, here's two aces up his sleeve for that... 🙏🙏

Look, I also want to see the car break down in at least three more races before the season ends, and I'm not ashamed to say it. I could probably name five or six people on this forum who would jump for joy if I did, or even smile if Maestro ended up retiring. Everyone acts way holier-than-thou, but whatever... no point getting into that here... 😁

graniteharbor502 said:A significant portion of your argument holds weight, I suppose. It seems to me that Lewis Hamilton's race was fundamentally compromised by yesterday's chaotic turn of events during Q2, for which he himself bears at least partial responsibility—though he did step up and take the blame. However, what truly occupies my thoughts is how much satisfaction the fans of Fernando Alonso can actually derive from today's performance. Is it not possible that, within a Ferrari of this caliber, Nico Hulkenberg might have proven to be a far more formidable competitor than Fernando Alonso himself?

Personally, I'm pretty stoked with how Maestro drove today. Against that super-dominant Newey-designed machine, there wasn't much anyone could do.

It’s such a shame they didn't pull Maestro into the pits before the puncture to try something different, but let's be real—the tire probably would've given up on the very next lap anyway, and Maestro wouldn't have been able to make up that massive 5-second gap in a single lap.

stormybadger8 said:How are they not related?
In both cases, you have a driver staying on track being pushed wide by the guy trying to pass him...

The big difference is that Massa shoved Grosjean completely off, whereas Webber gave Alonso a little more room—though still not enough for Alonso to keep all four wheels on the asphalt. Whether it's 4 wheels or 2 wheels off is just the result of that contact...

So, I really don't see how the guy being pushed is at fault here...
And regarding passing with two wheels off? Just look at Indy—they used to penalize that and order drivers to give positions back back in 2008. I was actually rewatching that race today.

Several drivers in basically identical Alonso/Webber situations (just two wheels off, if I remember correctly, maybe even the exact same corner) were ordered by the FIA to hand those positions back.😉

So why does the Maestro need to have all four wheels on the track?
4 wheels on track = 3 wheels on track = 2 wheels on track = 1 wheel on track
There’s zero difference between those four scenarios.

So it has nothing to do with Grosjean, who had basically zero wheels on the track.

If you're looking for an actual comparison, look at the Maestro vs Perez in Monaco. When Perez charged in like a total maniac and shoved the Maestro off, the Maestro ended up with all four wheels off the track and was penalized so he had to let Perez past, even though he was ahead before the battle.
If they had let Grosjean go without any consequences, *that* would have been a real inconsistency.

Amanda Kelly said:It’s funny how the tire consistency always seems to finally show up right around this point in the season.

Maybe it's because the teams finally "cook" the tires after ten races?

stormybadger8 said:The fact that Webber couldn't pass him is proof enough that he absolutely had a shot at winning. ☕

If he had qualified P3 on the grid (which was anything but an impossible mission...), considering how much better Ferrari's starts were compared to Red Bull, plus the fact that Red Bull eats tires way faster than Ferrari and they generally behave in opposite ways...
Red Bull is fast at the start of a stint but falls off toward the end, while Ferrari is slower initially but picks up speed later and the tires last longer...
On top of that, Red Bull definitely isn't a car capable of overtaking Ferrari even with DRS. 😉

So, with a solid qualifying and a decent start, a win was totally within reach.
Even if nothing else, he could have been breathing down their necks. After that initial advantage wore off and Alonso settled into P2, it was just too late.

At the end of the day, I didn't get the impression that Red Bull was the fastest... it looked like that at Spa, but definitely not at Monza.
Maybe it wasn't even Ferrari, but Kimi and Hamilton were insanely quick—it's just that they completely blew it in qualifying.
Look, after all that nonsense with their early pit stops, there's one interesting thing... Hamilton and Kimi were steadily chipping away at Vettel's lead and putting together a whole string of faster laps than him, all while dealing with dirty air and a bunch of overtakes...

Webber managed to close the gap on Alonso despite a busted front wing and a failing gearbox. He stayed right on his tail, pulling laps that were just as fast as Alonso's. How does he even keep up like that?

I'm telling you again—it’s a car that’s been fundamentally broken from the start.

stormybadger8 said:The fact that Webber couldn't pass him is proof enough that he absolutely had a shot at winning. ☕

If he had qualified P3 on the grid (which was anything but an impossible mission...), considering how much better Ferrari's starts were compared to Red Bull, plus the fact that Red Bull eats tires way faster than Ferrari and they generally behave in opposite ways...
Red Bull is fast at the start of a stint but falls off toward the end, while Ferrari is slower initially but picks up speed later and the tires last longer...
On top of that, Red Bull definitely isn't a car capable of overtaking Ferrari even with DRS. 😉

So, with a solid qualifying and a decent start, a win was totally within reach.
Even if nothing else, he could have been breathing down their necks. After that initial advantage wore off and Alonso settled into P2, it was just too late.

At the end of the day, I didn't get the impression that Red Bull was the fastest... it looked like that at Spa, but definitely not at Monza.
Maybe it wasn't even Ferrari, but Kimi and Hamilton were insanely quick—it's just that they completely blew it in qualifying.
Look, after all that nonsense with their early pit stops, there's one interesting thing... Hamilton and Kimi were steadily chipping away at Vettel's lead and putting together a whole string of faster laps than him, all while dealing with dirty air and a bunch of overtakes...

Not a chance.
Red Bull is basically sitting at the level of Caterham.
It’s Vettel who makes the difference.

It was the crew that made the difference yesterday—the team and the driver together, way more than just the car... and when you look at Webber compared to those two Ferraris, it’s mostly down to the crew.☕

You could see this interesting trend perfectly at Indianapolis Motor Speedway.😁
The kind of teamwork other teams can only dream about...🙏

Lap 23:
The gap Vettel - Webber was about 11 seconds, and they both hit the pits at the same time.
First, the stop for Vettel took 2.6 seconds, then Webber’s stop followed at 2.7 seconds—not even a millisecond of waiting for Webber while Vettel’s crew finished up.🙏

An insane gain.🙏
Vettel vs. Alonso: before the pit stops, he had about a 5-second lead; after Alonso exited the pits, that lead jumped to roughly 10 seconds. That’s a massive 5-second swing by the end of the race.🙏

Webber vs. Massa: before pitting, he was trailing by about 1 second; after the stop, he came out with a 2-second lead.🙏
Webber vs. Alonso: before the pits, he was down about 6 seconds, but after the stops, he was only about a second behind...

The crew deserves all the credit for closing that gap; it was much more about them than the machinery.☕
Even Vettel couldn't pull away from Alonso by more than maybe 0.200 on average per lap. To put that in perspective, for Webber and Vettel to have gained that much ground on Alonso through pure pace alone, it would have theoretically taken them 25 laps. Instead, the Red Bull mechanics and strategists just did it in the pits.🙏

Yesterday at Indy, almost every top car was neck-and-neck—maybe the closest we've seen in the last 10 seasons.
I don't recall a race where even Hulkenberg and Massa could hang with the Red Bull pace, let alone having the top six drivers finish within 10 seconds of each other in a standard dry race without an SC (and I'm not talking about Monaco on those crumbling Pirelli tires...).

Just look at the comparison to the Red Bull wins in2013 and 2011. Look at how many cars were in the same lap, and where the backmarkers were compared to the winner... And man, some of them didn't even manage to stay on the same lap.

And honestly, even Hamilton’s McLaren2012 and Alonso’s Ferrari2010 had significantly more dominant wins than what we saw yesterday, which clearly shows those cars were way more dominant over the field at Indy.

If I were one of those fans at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, I’d personally drag this whole special feature all the way back to some tiny town in the middle of nowhere 🙏 You fight through that massive crowd just to get to the podium, and then—bam—you can't even see him in the end 🙄

stormybadger8 said:It was the crew that made the difference yesterday—the team and the driver together, way more than just the car... and when you look at Webber compared to those two Ferraris, it’s mostly down to the crew.☕

You could see this interesting trend perfectly at Indianapolis Motor Speedway.😁
The kind of teamwork other teams can only dream about...🙏

Lap 23:
The gap Vettel - Webber was about 11 seconds, and they both hit the pits at the same time.
First, the stop for Vettel took 2.6 seconds, then Webber’s stop followed at 2.7 seconds—not even a millisecond of waiting for Webber while Vettel’s crew finished up.🙏

An insane gain.🙏
Vettel vs. Alonso: before the pit stops, he had about a 5-second lead; after Alonso exited the pits, that lead jumped to roughly 10 seconds. That’s a massive 5-second swing by the end of the race.🙏

Webber vs. Massa: before pitting, he was trailing by about 1 second; after the stop, he came out with a 2-second lead.🙏
Webber vs. Alonso: before the pits, he was down about 6 seconds, but after the stops, he was only about a second behind...

The crew deserves all the credit for closing that gap; it was much more about them than the machinery.☕
Even Vettel couldn't pull away from Alonso by more than maybe 0.200 on average per lap. To put that in perspective, for Webber and Vettel to have gained that much ground on Alonso through pure pace alone, it would have theoretically taken them 25 laps. Instead, the Red Bull mechanics and strategists just did it in the pits.🙏

Yesterday at Indy, almost every top car was neck-and-neck—maybe the closest we've seen in the last 10 seasons.
I don't recall a race where even Hulkenberg and Massa could hang with the Red Bull pace, let alone having the top six drivers finish within 10 seconds of each other in a standard dry race without an SC (and I'm not talking about Monaco on those crumbling Pirelli tires...).

Just look at the comparison to the Red Bull wins in2013 and 2011. Look at how many cars were in the same lap, and where the backmarkers were compared to the winner... And man, some of them didn't even manage to stay on the same lap.

And honestly, even Hamilton’s McLaren2012 and Alonso’s Ferrari2010 had significantly more dominant wins than what we saw yesterday, which clearly shows those cars were way more dominant over the field at Indy.

From where we’re sitting in the stands, it was pretty obvious that the Ferrari pit crew and their tire changes were definitely out of line yesterday.
People at home were asking me why I was yelling and swearing at the TV while waiting for Alonso's pit stop.
Even though things went smoothly with Alonso—which wasn't exactly a surprise—it still leaves me wondering why we spent so much time just sitting around waiting.
Alonso was shaving three or four tenths off his lap times in those last few laps before the pit stops. It’s possible they were just waiting on Vettel to make his move first. Honestly, though, I don't get why he didn't just jump right on his tail immediately.

Things were getting pretty tense with Massa, though. The gap was tiny, and honestly, you just had to take the gamble if you wanted any chance at a payoff. Those softer tires had already put in 23, 24, or maybe 25 laps, so a lap on the fresh hards would’ve likely been faster—unless their data was telling them something completely different and someone else had already pitted.

I’m still completely lost on these changes. They make zero sense to me.
How many races have we sat through where the only way anyone actually moved up was by hitting the pits? It’s getting ridiculous how much strategy dictates everything instead of actual racing.
Those folks on the pit wall didn't just show up yesterday. There has to be a logic behind the wait, regardless of which way you look at it.

I honestly think they were trying to pull some kind of strategic stunt because Alonso was looking pretty secure against Webber; they just couldn't afford to let that second-place spot slip away. Their whole gamble seemed to be banking on Alonso having a few extra laps on fresher rubber, just in case Vettel started struggling with his tires later in the race.
Anyway, it didn't really change the outcome—they didn't lose anything, and Vettel stayed completely untouchable.

stormybadger8 said:It was the crew that made the difference yesterday—the team and the driver together, way more than just the car... and when you look at Webber compared to those two Ferraris, it’s mostly down to the crew.☕

You could see this interesting trend perfectly at Indianapolis Motor Speedway.😁
The kind of teamwork other teams can only dream about...🙏

Lap 23:
The gap Vettel - Webber was about 11 seconds, and they both hit the pits at the same time.
First, the stop for Vettel took 2.6 seconds, then Webber’s stop followed at 2.7 seconds—not even a millisecond of waiting for Webber while Vettel’s crew finished up.🙏

An insane gain.🙏
Vettel vs. Alonso: before the pit stops, he had about a 5-second lead; after Alonso exited the pits, that lead jumped to roughly 10 seconds. That’s a massive 5-second swing by the end of the race.🙏

Webber vs. Massa: before pitting, he was trailing by about 1 second; after the stop, he came out with a 2-second lead.🙏
Webber vs. Alonso: before the pits, he was down about 6 seconds, but after the stops, he was only about a second behind...

The crew deserves all the credit for closing that gap; it was much more about them than the machinery.☕
Even Vettel couldn't pull away from Alonso by more than maybe 0.200 on average per lap. To put that in perspective, for Webber and Vettel to have gained that much ground on Alonso through pure pace alone, it would have theoretically taken them 25 laps. Instead, the Red Bull mechanics and strategists just did it in the pits.🙏

Yesterday at Indy, almost every top car was neck-and-neck—maybe the closest we've seen in the last 10 seasons.
I don't recall a race where even Hulkenberg and Massa could hang with the Red Bull pace, let alone having the top six drivers finish within 10 seconds of each other in a standard dry race without an SC (and I'm not talking about Monaco on those crumbling Pirelli tires...).

Just look at the comparison to the Red Bull wins in2013 and 2011. Look at how many cars were in the same lap, and where the backmarkers were compared to the winner... And man, some of them didn't even manage to stay on the same lap.

And honestly, even Hamilton’s McLaren2012 and Alonso’s Ferrari2010 had significantly more dominant wins than what we saw yesterday, which clearly shows those cars were way more dominant over the field at Indy.

Primarily that Chelavi guy on the team.

Drew Bennett68 said:I honestly think they were trying to pull some kind of strategic stunt because Alonso was looking pretty secure against Webber; they just couldn't afford to let that second-place spot slip away. Their whole gamble seemed to be banking on Alonso having a few extra laps on fresher rubber, just in case Vettel started struggling with his tires later in the race.
Anyway, it didn't really change the outcome—they didn't lose anything, and Vettel stayed completely untouchable.

The logic wasn't totally broken, though. They saw Red Bull was still eating through tires worse than them and that Alonso was closing in on Vettel during that first stint...

But then again, they should've realized Vettel had tire issues right from turn one—he took a nasty flatspot, which was probably a huge part of the equation...

And if they were truly certain about staying ahead of Webber by a mile, they forgot he ended up breathing down Alonso's neck right after the pit stops. One slightly slower stop and they could've easily lost two spots...

All in all, it was a gamble that ended up hurting Massa while leaving Alonso unscathed, but it could have gone south for both of them fast...

Plus, Anderson nailed it when he said their tactics were a mess—they might have even thrown away the win with that move...
He argued that if they were going to play it risky, they should've kept doing it until the end...
Maybe letting Alonso stay out longer would've worked if they’d sacrificed Massa. He could've held up Vettel for a few seconds in traffic, potentially handing Alonso the win...
In that scenario, Massa would've lost P4 (he was P3 at the time, but they were already too far behind to save him) and finished 6th at best. He was faster than Rosberg and Hulkenberg, so he might've jumped them anyway, but they could've walked away with an Alonso victory...

At the end of the day, Alonso winning plus Massa finishing 6th would've netted them 25+6 = 31 points. Instead, they scraped together 30...

Jason Campbell70 said:Primarily that Chelavi guy on the team.

Was Chelavi changing tires in the pits?
Did Chelavi shock Ferrari with two lightning-fast pit stops?

Oh right, I probably just missed it because I’m wearing my biased fan glasses.😁

Congrats to Vettel on the win. The trophy haul just keeps coming, it seems.

To be fair, out of all the nonsense being rambled about, he’s actually right when he says Red Bull has the best package. It’s an objective truth. This specific pairing of Vettel and Red Bull, without any real competition in sight, is currently unbeatable and they deserve the title.

You have to accept defeat when you lose to someone better. This year, we’re losing to someone better. That’s all there is to it.

Now I’m just hoping Kimi actually shows up and squeezes out every last bit of potential Alonso has left. Like I said before, if Alonso pulls a disappearing act (which I don't think he will), I'll be disowning him as a fan immediately.

stormybadger8 said:Was Chelavi changing tires in the pits?
Did Chelavi shock Ferrari with two lightning-fast pit stops?

Oh right, I probably just missed it because I’m wearing my biased fan glasses.😁

Lewis Hamilton built a car capable of a comfortable three-tenths lead per lap; once you have that, you can pit whenever you feel like it.

stormybadger8 said:Was Chelavi changing tires in the pits?
Did Chelavi shock Ferrari with two lightning-fast pit stops?

Oh right, I probably just missed it because I’m wearing my biased fan glasses.😁

I find that hard to believe. You’re being perfectly objective, aren't you?

stormybadger8 said:The logic wasn't totally broken, though. They saw Red Bull was still eating through tires worse than them and that Alonso was closing in on Vettel during that first stint...

But then again, they should've realized Vettel had tire issues right from turn one—he took a nasty flatspot, which was probably a huge part of the equation...

And if they were truly certain about staying ahead of Webber by a mile, they forgot he ended up breathing down Alonso's neck right after the pit stops. One slightly slower stop and they could've easily lost two spots...

All in all, it was a gamble that ended up hurting Massa while leaving Alonso unscathed, but it could have gone south for both of them fast...

Plus, Anderson nailed it when he said their tactics were a mess—they might have even thrown away the win with that move...
He argued that if they were going to play it risky, they should've kept doing it until the end...
Maybe letting Alonso stay out longer would've worked if they’d sacrificed Massa. He could've held up Vettel for a few seconds in traffic, potentially handing Alonso the win...
In that scenario, Massa would've lost P4 (he was P3 at the time, but they were already too far behind to save him) and finished 6th at best. He was faster than Rosberg and Hulkenberg, so he might've jumped them anyway, but they could've walked away with an Alonso victory...

At the end of the day, Alonso winning plus Massa finishing 6th would've netted them 25+6 = 31 points. Instead, they scraped together 30...

They had to pit Felipe Massa before Mark Webber. It wasn't optional. Trying to pull that off on shot tires works maybe 90% of the time, if you're lucky.

stormybadger8 said:The logic wasn't totally broken, though. They saw Red Bull was still eating through tires worse than them and that Alonso was closing in on Vettel during that first stint...

But then again, they should've realized Vettel had tire issues right from turn one—he took a nasty flatspot, which was probably a huge part of the equation...

And if they were truly certain about staying ahead of Webber by a mile, they forgot he ended up breathing down Alonso's neck right after the pit stops. One slightly slower stop and they could've easily lost two spots...

All in all, it was a gamble that ended up hurting Massa while leaving Alonso unscathed, but it could have gone south for both of them fast...

Plus, Anderson nailed it when he said their tactics were a mess—they might have even thrown away the win with that move...
He argued that if they were going to play it risky, they should've kept doing it until the end...
Maybe letting Alonso stay out longer would've worked if they’d sacrificed Massa. He could've held up Vettel for a few seconds in traffic, potentially handing Alonso the win...
In that scenario, Massa would've lost P4 (he was P3 at the time, but they were already too far behind to save him) and finished 6th at best. He was faster than Rosberg and Hulkenberg, so he might've jumped them anyway, but they could've walked away with an Alonso victory...

At the end of the day, Alonso winning plus Massa finishing 6th would've netted them 25+6 = 31 points. Instead, they scraped together 30...

I don't buy it. Just speculation.
With those fresh tires, Sebastian Vettel was over a second per lap faster than Fernando Alonso.
Felipe Massa wouldn't have lasted a single lap against him.
He managed to hang with Mark Webber, but that was on a light fuel load and with the same worn-out rubber.

Amanda Kelly said:They had to pit Felipe Massa before Mark Webber. It wasn't optional. Trying to pull that off on shot tires works maybe 90% of the time, if you're lucky.

I don't buy it. Just speculation.
With those fresh tires, Sebastian Vettel was over a second per lap faster than Fernando Alonso.
Felipe Massa wouldn't have lasted a single lap against him.
He managed to hang with Mark Webber, but that was on a light fuel load and with the same worn-out rubber.

I think the DRS zone was pretty useless unless you were someone with significantly fresher rubber and much higher top speed... which isn't even surprising given you could barely see the rear wing actually opening...
At the end of the day, the McLarens managed to stay right on Lewis Hamilton and Kimi Räikkönen for quite a while, and Jenson Button even held off Kimi until the finish...
And that's despite the massive gap in tire age and lap times (around 1.5 to 3 seconds difference, for instance, Lewis Hamilton was almost 3 seconds faster than the McLarens when he passed them or had clear air...)
Plus, the gap in top speed was way bigger than what we saw between Red Bull Racing and Ferrari...
Even so, they weren't just blowing past them without losing any time at all...

I seriously doubt he could just breeze past him like that...
Red Bull Racing and Ferrari looked dead even, except maybe for Red Bull Racing being slightly faster in clean air, but if they could just overtake anyone at will, they definitely weren't...
That’s exactly why Fernando Alonso's move on Mark Webber was such a gritty, impressive play, even though he ended up with a pretty banged-up car by the end...

Ashley Cook64 said:If I were one of those fans at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, I’d personally drag this whole special feature all the way back to some tiny town in the middle of nowhere 🙏 You fight through that massive crowd just to get to the podium, and then—bam—you can't even see him in the end 🙄

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I have reached my golden years, and I finally had the opportunity to attend my very first Formula 1 race weekend. Naturally, I felt compelled to experience it at a home track, though the entire atmosphere was somewhat soured by those irritating Chaplin types and their constant waving of that obnoxious flag. It was quite a distressing scene; they nearly caused a serious accident involving the teacher, and now he likely harbors a deep resentment toward us Americans, given that he was forced to watch us from the podium just like everyone else.

Chaplin, you should realize that you did some real damage to our reputation back there with that massive flag. While I think we all share that deep desire to see the Stars and Stripes flying high during an event like this—and seeing them right up in the front row is something else—you were simply being far too aggressive. I could clearly sense the crowd reacting negatively to that flag during the podium ceremony, which unfortunately cast a shadow over Americans as a whole. It felt as though people immediately started viewing us as nothing more than unruly hooligans. Meanwhile, the rest of the decent spectators were busy dismantling parts of the track and stealing signage, including the SC, 100, and 200 markers. I even saw a group, I believe they were from Poland, actually dragging away a twenty-meter stretch of the Pirelli safety fencing. 😂

I have traveled quite extensively to attend major music festivals and championship football matches, but I must admit that this particular experience has completely changed my perspective. There is no way I could let another season pass without making sure I am there in person for at least one race. 😁
I find myself quite taken aback by such a lack of consideration; honestly, using those little earwax removal sticks is just plain reckless. 😂 Honestly, if I had my way, I would have gladly stuck my head right into the engine block just to hear that roar even louder; man, what an absolute rush that would have been.

If you all have some free time this afternoon, I might just share a few photos I took earlier today.

Regarding the race itself, I find myself agreeing entirely, particularly regarding the sentiment expressed about Kimi Räikkönen. One can only imagine the sheer magnitude of the crowd that would have rallied behind the red cars had things gone differently.

steelmaker83 said:Congrats to Vettel on the win. The trophy haul just keeps coming, it seems.

To be fair, out of all the nonsense being rambled about, he’s actually right when he says Red Bull has the best package. It’s an objective truth. This specific pairing of Vettel and Red Bull, without any real competition in sight, is currently unbeatable and they deserve the title.

You have to accept defeat when you lose to someone better. This year, we’re losing to someone better. That’s all there is to it.

Now I’m just hoping Kimi actually shows up and squeezes out every last bit of potential Alonso has left. Like I said before, if Alonso pulls a disappearing act (which I don't think he will), I'll be disowning him as a fan immediately.