So sad

rapidpanther43 said:So, I’m scrolling through some threads and I see John Doe got banned for being racist and pushing Nazi rhetoric; since I can't post there myself, I just want to say that the admin should be absolutely ashamed of his arrogant attitude and the fact that he’s basically endorsing Nazism, which honestly makes him a racist and a Nazi in his own right.

There is one massive failure regarding this forum's administration.
John Doe, if I were in your shoes, I would take this straight to the police because you have actual, written evidence of the admin supporting Nazism and racism on this site.☕

Nicholas King said:Moderating "social science" is a lot like working a toll booth at a Vicksburg rest stop on the interstate—twice a day someone rolls up and pays their fee, and the rest of the time you’re just sitting there grinding through Sudoku. 😁

Then, out of nowhere, this massive line starts forming, and you're just caught off guard—totally unaccustomed and unprepared. That's when the chaos kicks in: the mess, the congestion, the absolute shouting matches between pissed-off drivers—and you’re just standing there, paralyzed, not knowing what to do or how to handle it.

That is precisely how this moderated thread regarding racism went down. First off, the topic was opened by some newbie 🙄—highly suspicious. Secondly, they chose to open it on a subforum they know is under-moderated (rather than, say, Politics, where they wouldn't last five minutes)—also highly suspicious. Thirdly, the intro of the thread is dominated by yet another newbie 🙄—suspicious once again. It’s more than enough justification to "locate, lock, and ban."

And then, the most predictable thing in the universe happens: when people see that the firefighters aren't showing up (because there are too few of them, they're inexperienced, or they've lost their way), they start trying to put out the fire themselves, using whatever tools they have. Judolino might be doing it with kerosene, but even that is better—if we're being honest and fair (since he isn't an idiot who ignores the consequences)—than just sitting on one's hands and saying, "Damn, this isn't my fight." At this point, it doesn't matter who anyone is or who likes whom on this site.

To ignore the context in which this whole mess unfolded—to sanction someone without acknowledging that the administration made a massive screw-up (there are plenty of indictable sentences that sat unaddressed for days)—is, at the very least, incorrect.

Did Judolino offend people? Absolutely. But labeling him with "hate speech" suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of what hate speech actually is. Hate speech isn't just any expression of animosity. Even if he gets a permanent ban, the reason behind it matters. It’s not the same thing whether someone ends up in prison for stealing a chicken or for something much more severe.

The man was just fighting the fire the only way he knew how—and he messed up. But where were all of you when things were actually burning?

Edit: On KzB, it was written, "Believe it or not, people have the right to be racists." This is an incredibly, incredibly ambiguous sentence. The question is: does a person become a racist simply by having "racist thoughts" without ever acting on them, or only when they manifest that racism in some "external" form? What someone thinks about others is their private business as long as it remains a thought—though, I suppose, the possibility of never manifesting those thoughts is highly questionable.

However, in this specific situation, this debate is entirely pointless (and the quoted sentence is completely irrelevant), because we are talking about actions—about a clear manifestation of racism that would be punishable by much more serious measures than mere bans or temporary suspensions. The sentence regarding the "logical and necessary action in accordance with that hatred" could have—perhaps?—caused actual legal headaches for Reddit. In that sense, Judolino actually did us a favor, because now you have something to wave around in your counter-arguments.

Megan Ruiz13 said:He could have handled this more politely. He could have just reported the whole thread, or started a new one about the appeal and laid out the argument that it’s about racism in a few sentences.

That said, free speech should be respected, including discussions about racism—the why, the how, all of it.
You can't just shut down, delete, and punish every single thread that even touches the subject.

And it’s especially uncalled for to label participants as Hitler sympathizers. There's a clear line between hate speech and an actual discussion about it.

Having read the original post, yeah, it was definitely framed in a racist way... but there are plenty of ways to deal with that without stooping to that "level."🙂

With that being said, Freedom of speech is something we absolutely have to respect—it’s the bedrock of everything we stand for. I mean, if we start picking and choosing who gets to voice their opinions based on what's considered "acceptable" at any given moment, then we've already lost the plot. It might feel uncomfortable sometimes—and let's be honest, some people say things that are frankly infuriating—but the principle itself remains non-negotiable. If you start chipping away at the right to speak, even for people you personally can't stand, you're essentially inviting the government to decide what your own thoughts are allowed to be. It's a slippery slope, and once you go down it, there's no easy way back. We have to protect the right to dissent, period.And, let’s say, even when it comes to debating racism—the whole "why" and "how" of it all—it's just... well, I suppose we could dive into those discussions too.
So, you can't exactly go around closing, deleting, or handing out punishments to every single thread that dares to touch upon this subject—not if you want to maintain any semblance of fairness.
(...)
That’s what I thought—well, at least that was my initial takeaway when I first sat down to read the opening post. I mean, let's be honest—the way he's positioned is just blatantly racist....

Nicholas King said:And I’m basically giving him a free pass—absolving him of any wrongdoing whatsoever—but where exactly? 😕 Look, I’ll be the first to admit the guy was throwing gasoline on the fire and being straight-up insulting—he absolutely was. But at the end of the day, he was fueling the flames. Now, regarding the moderator's post—it’s sitting right there among the first ten comments in the thread. You can't just hide behind that tired old excuse of "mods aren't online 24/7" when it's that visible. He saw the opening post, and he chose not to step in or issue a sanction. This isn't some minor oversight that requires a user to report it; it’s a failure to act on something clearly presented from the jump.

With that being said, Freedom of speech is something we absolutely have to respect—it’s the bedrock of everything we stand for. I mean, if we start picking and choosing who gets to voice their opinions based on what's considered "acceptable" at any given moment, then we've already lost the plot. It might feel uncomfortable sometimes—and let's be honest, some people say things that are frankly infuriating—but the principle itself remains non-negotiable. If you start chipping away at the right to speak, even for people you personally can't stand, you're essentially inviting the government to decide what your own thoughts are allowed to be. It's a slippery slope, and once you go down it, there's no easy way back. We have to protect the right to dissent, period.And, let’s say, even when it comes to debating racism—the whole "why" and "how" of it all—it's just... well, I suppose we could dive into those discussions too.
So, you can't exactly go around closing, deleting, or handing out punishments to every single thread that dares to touch upon this subject—not if you want to maintain any semblance of fairness.
(...)
That’s what I thought—well, at least that was my initial takeaway when I first sat down to read the opening post. I mean, let's be honest—the way he's positioned is just blatantly racist....

For crying out loud, just make up your mind. 😁

Where on earth did you get the idea that I’m actually advocating for closing things down? Honestly, I have no clue where you're pulling that from—it's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? I suppose I should address this—though I'm not entirely sure where to start given how much has been left unsaid. It feels like we're just drifting through these discussions without any real sense of direction, which is... well, let's just say it's frustrating. Maybe I'm being too pedantic, but there seems to be a recurring pattern here that everyone is simply ignoring. It’s almost as if we've collectively decided to look the other way, which—if you ask me—is a bit much. I guess I'll just lay it out plainly, even if it feels like shouting into a void. What kind of topics would even touch upon this—I mean, what specific areas could we possibly dive into to address such a thing?

Nicholas King said:And I’m basically giving him a free pass—absolving him of any wrongdoing whatsoever—but where exactly? 😕 Look, I’ll be the first to admit the guy was throwing gasoline on the fire and being straight-up insulting—he absolutely was. But at the end of the day, he was fueling the flames. Now, regarding the moderator's post—it’s sitting right there among the first ten comments in the thread. You can't just hide behind that tired old excuse of "mods aren't online 24/7" when it's that visible. He saw the opening post, and he chose not to step in or issue a sanction. This isn't some minor oversight that requires a user to report it; it’s a failure to act on something clearly presented from the jump.

With that being said, Freedom of speech is something we absolutely have to respect—it’s the bedrock of everything we stand for. I mean, if we start picking and choosing who gets to voice their opinions based on what's considered "acceptable" at any given moment, then we've already lost the plot. It might feel uncomfortable sometimes—and let's be honest, some people say things that are frankly infuriating—but the principle itself remains non-negotiable. If you start chipping away at the right to speak, even for people you personally can't stand, you're essentially inviting the government to decide what your own thoughts are allowed to be. It's a slippery slope, and once you go down it, there's no easy way back. We have to protect the right to dissent, period.And, let’s say, even when it comes to debating racism—the whole "why" and "how" of it all—it's just... well, I suppose we could dive into those discussions too.
So, you can't exactly go around closing, deleting, or handing out punishments to every single thread that dares to touch upon this subject—not if you want to maintain any semblance of fairness.
(...)
That’s what I thought—well, at least that was my initial takeaway when I first sat down to read the opening post. I mean, let's be honest—the way he's positioned is just blatantly racist....

For crying out loud, just make up your mind. 😁

Where on earth did you get the idea that I’m actually advocating for closing things down? Honestly, I have no clue where you're pulling that from—it's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? I suppose I should address this—though I'm not entirely sure where to start given how much has been left unsaid. It feels like we're just drifting through these discussions without any real sense of direction, which is... well, let's just say it's frustrating. Maybe I'm being too pedantic, but there seems to be a recurring pattern here that everyone is simply ignoring. It’s almost as if we've collectively decided to look the other way, which—if you ask me—is a bit much. I guess I'll just lay it out plainly, even if it feels like shouting into a void. What kind of topics would even touch upon this—I mean, what specific areas could we possibly dive into to address such a thing?

Nicholas King said:And I’m basically giving him a free pass—absolving him of any wrongdoing whatsoever—but where exactly? 😕 Look, I’ll be the first to admit the guy was throwing gasoline on the fire and being straight-up insulting—he absolutely was. But at the end of the day, he was fueling the flames. Now, regarding the moderator's post—it’s sitting right there among the first ten comments in the thread. You can't just hide behind that tired old excuse of "mods aren't online 24/7" when it's that visible. He saw the opening post, and he chose not to step in or issue a sanction. This isn't some minor oversight that requires a user to report it; it’s a failure to act on something clearly presented from the jump.

With that being said, Freedom of speech is something we absolutely have to respect—it’s the bedrock of everything we stand for. I mean, if we start picking and choosing who gets to voice their opinions based on what's considered "acceptable" at any given moment, then we've already lost the plot. It might feel uncomfortable sometimes—and let's be honest, some people say things that are frankly infuriating—but the principle itself remains non-negotiable. If you start chipping away at the right to speak, even for people you personally can't stand, you're essentially inviting the government to decide what your own thoughts are allowed to be. It's a slippery slope, and once you go down it, there's no easy way back. We have to protect the right to dissent, period.And, let’s say, even when it comes to debating racism—the whole "why" and "how" of it all—it's just... well, I suppose we could dive into those discussions too.
So, you can't exactly go around closing, deleting, or handing out punishments to every single thread that dares to touch upon this subject—not if you want to maintain any semblance of fairness.
(...)
That’s what I thought—well, at least that was my initial takeaway when I first sat down to read the opening post. I mean, let's be honest—the way he's positioned is just blatantly racist....

For crying out loud, just make up your mind. 😁

Where on earth did you get the idea that I’m actually advocating for closing things down? Honestly, I have no clue where you're pulling that from—it's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? I suppose I should address this—though I'm not entirely sure where to start given how much has been left unsaid. It feels like we're just drifting through these discussions without any real sense of direction, which is... well, let's just say it's frustrating. Maybe I'm being too pedantic, but there seems to be a recurring pattern here that everyone is simply ignoring. It’s almost as if we've collectively decided to look the other way, which—if you ask me—is a bit much. I guess I'll just lay it out plainly, even if it feels like shouting into a void. What kind of topics would even touch upon this—I mean, what specific areas could we possibly dive into to address such a thing?

Megan Ruiz13 said:It’s still not an excuse for acting like that, and they aren't responsible for shutting anything down. I've been on Reddit for nine years now. I've seen plenty of changes over that time, but one of the most recent shifts is this idea that users are here for other users, while the moderators and admins are the ones making all the calls and holding the power to "shut things down."
The appeal process here? Honestly, I don't think it works. The moderation feels way too heavy-handed, but hey, those are just the rules.

Either you stick to your guns or you just roll over, regardless of how he handled things.

I’m all for free speech, but this forum still follows the laws of the country we live in. Under US law, we don't have absolute freedom of speech within those legal boundaries. Since the post was clearly racist, there isn't much point in trying to argue it. Besides, mods are only human; some might value freedom more than the rulebook, so they might let things slide occasionally. 🤷

If Judolino was actually that bothered by it, he had plenty of ways to stir the pot without getting banned. He could've done it without any trouble at all.

Look, I wasn't even pointing the finger at you. 😉

...one of the last points is that users are here for other users, while the mods and administration are the ones making decisions and holding the authority to "shut things down."

So you either stick to that or just roll over and take it, regardless of how or why they decide to shut something down.

and mods are human, maybe some people value freedom more than the rules, so sometimes they overlook things 🤷

Nicholas King said:Third and final time: I am not advocating for the right to be abusive—what I am contesting is the total lack of timely intervention from the moderators and staff. That failure is exactly what caused this whole thing to escalate, leading to situations that—for days now 🤦—are being sanctioned under the label of "hate speech."

...one of the last points is that users are here for other users, while the mods and administration are the ones making decisions and holding the authority to "shut things down."

In other words, just shut up and mind your own business? Don't get involved, just post and don't ask questions? If we followed that logic, I suppose I could triumphantly toast and say, "Serves him right!"—since I've been told more than once that I've nearly lost my own relatives because of my mouth. But honestly, can you really just sit there calmly "doing your job" while absolute chaos unfolds in the next room? Would you just walk past a literal house fire because, hey, you don't have the authority to grab a hose?

It’s just not going to work. Users aren't just here to "interact with other users"; they are here because they expect the environment to be tolerable. I’m not a proponent of vigilante tactics, but there is a massive difference between someone acting out of pure malice and someone drawing a line in the sand after the "law enforcement" (the mods) has taken a completely indifferent stance.

So you either stick to that or just roll over and take it, regardless of how or why they decide to shut something down.

Fourth and final time 😁: I am neither advocating for nor justifying crude insults—but there is no hate speech occurring here.

and mods are human, maybe some people value freedom more than the rules, so sometimes they overlook things 🤷

😲 😲 😲

Following that logic (which I certainly do not support), Judolina also valued freedom more than the (forum) rules.

Brian Edwards6 said:We’re all just part of the same crowd.👍

Now, jokes aside. This thread was framed in a way that could only ever lead to one conclusion, and that’s exactly what Judolino correctly identified. And sure, he probably deserved a reprimand for how he handled himself, but the thread itself should have been shut down immediately (or at the very least, the opening post should have been completely overhauled). Racism and hate speech are inexcusable, and there is absolutely no reason to tolerate them just because they've been wrapped up in pretty packaging. A massive 👎 to the moderators. There is a more appropriate emoji for this situation, but I’d likely be penalized if I actually used it.👍

In short, Judolino earned a warning (take your pick) or even a ban, but he certainly wasn't the only person in that thread who deserved one. At the same time, a permanent exile was overkill, whereas some others definitely earned it, despite having barely posted anything. Another big 👎 for the mods (though again, a different emoji would be more fitting here). It’s honestly pathetic that they’ll drive away an excellent contributor who is always a pleasure to read, only to leave... Well, I'll stop there. I think I see now how he got caught in this mess.😁

mellowlynx68 said:I just want to know one thing: was Judolino reporting posts before he started swearing at people?

If he was, then the moderators should be penalized for negligence, while he only gets points for his first one or two posts (since everything else is just him insulting users). By failing to act, the moderators basically paved the way for his constant insults and hate speech.

But if he wasn't reporting others, then every single one of those posts should be penalized. Correcting a mistake regarding the Danube isn't his job—he should just be flagging it. Even so, he doesn't deserve a permanent ban because this whole mess happened because nobody was moderating. The mods just need a little 😬 nudge for not reading their own PDF.

cosmicrider5 said:I often find myself dropping by Reddit as a quick pit stop between jokes, trashy threads, bits of wit, or champions of stupidity... just looking for a little entertainment. And I have to admit, this is easily the most massive misjudgment I’ve seen on this entire site so far.
I read through that whole ridiculous thread. Judolino made a huge mistake by letting himself get provoked and actually engaging with a troll in the first place. But not a single one of his posts was hate speech; he was just insulting other users. What constitutes hate speech here is actually the opening post. It’s a textbook example of calculated hate propaganda fueled by racism. I find it hard to believe anyone could spin a tale suggesting that guy just wanted an intellectual debate to learn something or hear a different perspective. Which begs the question: why hasn't this thread been deleted yet? Or better yet, WHY THE HELL IS IT STILL UP? Just wipe that garbage immediately; locking it isn't enough.
But what absolutely floored me was this statement from the admin: Believe it or not, people have the right to be racists. Also, you have the right to express your disagreement with those views.
Are you kidding me? Since when? What else do people have the right to be—thieves, murderers, rapists? There are all sorts of degenerates among the human race, but that doesn't mean everything can be categorized under "freedom of speech." You have to draw a line somewhere and prohibit statements that are dangerous to the environment—to the rest of society that recognizes the importance of mutual tolerance, which is what makes us a civilized society rather than pure anarchy.
I am well aware that this is private property and might not carry legal liability. However, it still functions as a form of public media, and if nothing else, it carries a moral and social responsibility for the content they choose to leave indexed for search engines. I highly doubt any reputable public media outlet would allow this kind of propaganda in its archives, if only to protect their future funding.

In my opinion, the moderators of this site made a much larger blunder than Judolino did, and I sincerely hope they rectify it soon.
To wrap things up, here is a song for the individual who started this thread, and for everyone else who can't seem to grasp where the problem lies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY_5e5ew12I

Nicholas King said:Now that things are finally reaching a breaking point, I honestly think there’s a valid argument for just wiping this whole disgraceful thread from existence—meaning, we delete everything except for that penultimate paragraph in the opening post, because frankly, the rest isn't even worth the digital space it's occupying on our boards.

Please, don't view this suggestion as some legalistic maneuvering; rather, look at it as a necessary bit of housekeeping. 😁