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Dealing with hemorrhoids – any advice?

Started by Sandra Patel40 · · 👁 46 views · 944 replies

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Participants Sandra Patel40fadedtinker76stormypanther55Joseph Reyes60Austin Ruiz80Casey Rogers47mellowscout32Thomas Morales4Arthur Bishop6placideagle25Benjamin Parker7gentlemason95Jessica Grant56Christian Torres21Lawrence Allen4Rachel GarciaElizabeth Sullivan61Carol Nguyen5Paul Hayes45Olivia Doyle85Kate Jackson24Susan Lee5neontrucker22rustyridge272 …
Michael Diaz4 Michael Diaz4 Active Member
154 messages
joined Nov 2009
#841 ·
@feralsurfer172/">@@feralsurfer172
You really can't push yourself too hard at the gym. Avoid heavy lifting or anything that puts intense strain on your body. That’s when hemorrhoids tend to flare up or even prolapse...
feralsurfer172 feralsurfer172 Member
16 messages
joined Jun 2012
#842 ·
Michael Diaz4 said:@feralsurfer172/">@@feralsurfer172
You can't go too hard at the gym. You shouldn't be lifting heavy or pushing yourself too much because that's when those hemorrhoids really start to pop out...

I mean, obviously. It would be pretty crazy to think you could heal an open wound by putting more stress on it through intense workouts—it’s basically the same kind of strain you get when you're struggling on the toilet. How is a wound supposed to actually mend if you keep aggravating it like that?

Plus, all that straining could cause a lump to burst. Honestly, I've heard it might actually be worse if they don't bleed but just keep swelling up instead.

Once things are sorted out, you've got options. Personally, while I was dealing with that constant stinging sensation, I found that just going for light walks or doing some gentle stretching really helped since it gets the blood moving.
Isn't boosting circulation (along with using a good cream) basically the whole point when you're trying to let a wound heal?

Between sitting at a desk all day, not moving enough, and having poor circulation, it feels like I'm just creating the perfect environment for these things to flare up. I'm pretty sure lifting heavy stuff will just make it worse, and even standing in one spot for too long doesn't feel great either.🙂
Justin Rogers5 Justin Rogers5 Active Member
214 messages
joined Feb 2010
#843 ·
Woke up yesterday with diarrhea and hemorrhoids—one small one and another about the size of a walnut. It’s not my diet or standing too much; it’s always after the stomach issues caused by these pills I've been on. Been dealing with this for six months now. If I stop the meds, the diarrhea stops. Made a mistake yesterday and only took half a caffeine pill, and now I'm paying for it. Actually fainted from the pain at work, bled, and ended up in the ER. They gave me a painkiller. The doctors there were shocked at how big the hemorrhoid was. I've had issues before, but two years ago it lasted a month and I thought I was stuck with it forever. While they were giving me stuff to calm down, the doctor told me to sit in a warm chamomile bath and use ice. Just applied some soothing balm and I'm feeling slightly better. Anyone have suggestions for a good cream? Doesn't matter if it has to be ordered online. This only seems to happen to me in the summer. Please help. The pain is brutal, and surgery is absolutely out of the question right now. I heard those specific tablets might help.
Michael Diaz4 Michael Diaz4 Active Member
154 messages
joined Nov 2009
#844 ·
Betty Nelson71 said:Yesterday morning I dealt with diarrhea and flared up some hemorrhoids—one small one and another about the size of a walnut. It’s not my diet or standing too much that triggers them; it's always the diarrhea caused by certain pills I take. If I stop the medication, the diarrhea stops. Yesterday, I made the mistake of only taking half a dose of my caffeine supplement, and now I'm paying for it. I actually fainted from the pain at work, bled, and ended up in the ER. They gave me a painkiller. The staff at the ER were all shocked by how big the hemorrhoid was—literally the size of a walnut. I've struggled with this before, but the last time it was this bad was two years ago, and it lasted for a month; I thought I'd be stuck like this forever. While they were giving me meds to calm things down, the doctor told me to sit in a warm chamomile bath and apply ice. I just applied some soothing balm and feel a little better. Does anyone have advice on a specific cream? I don't mind ordering something online. This only seems to happen to me during the summer. Please help! The pain is unbearable, and surgery is absolutely out of the question right now. I heard someone mention those specific tablets might help.

Give Lidoproct a shot. It works incredibly well for the pain. Most of the advice out there is pretty standard stuff you probably already know: maintain perfect hygiene, don't strain, eat light, and stay away from spicy food—seriously, no heat at all. Stick to greens, avoid anything that causes bloating or constipation, and try to manage the diarrhea. Don't sit on the toilet for too long either. feralsurfer172 mentioned a good way to clean up after using the bathroom (to be honest, even though I cleared everything up over a year ago, I still follow that method because I prefer showering while I'm at it anyway...😁)
Justin Rogers5 Justin Rogers5 Active Member
214 messages
joined Feb 2010
#845 ·
Michael Diaz4 said:Give some over-the-counter hemorrhoid cream a shot. It actually works for the pain. Most of the advice is pretty standard stuff you probably already know: stay clean, don't strain, eat light, and steer clear of spicy food—seriously, no hot sauce. Stick to greens, avoid anything that causes bloating or constipation, and watch out for diarrhea. Also, don't spend forever sitting on the toilet. feralsurfer172 mentioned a good way to clean up afterward (honestly, I still follow that routine even though my issues cleared up over a year ago, but hey, I kind of like showering anyway...)😁)

I'm not even much of a spice person, so that's fine. My biggest worry is just keeping things regular. Sometimes it goes ten days without me being able to go at all.🤷I eat a variety of foods and take Metamucil for digestion. I also have some Voltaren suppositories for the pain; used one recently and it did the trick,😍though it was a bit of a struggle to get it in there.😂
Michael Diaz4 Michael Diaz4 Active Member
154 messages
joined Nov 2009
#846 ·
Betty Nelson71 said:I’m not really one to get worked up about things, so it's fine. My main worry is just staying regular. Sometimes it goes on for ten days straight without me being able to go. I eat a varied diet and take Metamucil for digestion. I also have some Voltaren suppositories for the pain; I used one and it actually helped the pain, 🤷though it took a little bit of effort to get it in there.😍 😂

Man, that constipation situation isn't great. I'm not sure how effective Metamucil really is. Regardless of what the commercials say, it can cause bloating if your system is already struggling. Maybe try taking some magnesium citrate. Someone suggested that to me when I had to do a cleanse, though it wasn't my first choice, so I don't think it'll send you running to the bathroom immediately or give you diarrhea if you just take a bit. For general regularity, maybe look into fiber supplements—maybe something like Benefiber. You usually take one to three tablespoons before a meal. Check the label; I remember it saying to start with just one tablespoon, then gradually increase the dose until you see results that work for you. I once had to chug an entire bottle at once before a surgery. Ugh, it was disgusting. Just thinking about it makes me nauseous. That was back in March 2012. You shouldn't overdo it, or you'll end up with diarrhea, and then you'll be right back to hurting. And please, go see a doctor. Dealing with bleeding and pain like that isn't okay. Surgery might be the next step. Don't be afraid of doctors or their diagnoses...
feralsurfer172 feralsurfer172 Member
16 messages
joined Jun 2012
#847 ·
Hey Lola.

I’ve been lucky enough to only deal with mild cases myself, so if I were in your shoes, I’d definitely stick to what the doctors and traditional medicine suggest first and foremost, because honestly, random people on forums like me probably aren't going to give you better advice than a medical professional. 😕

I actually wrote about my own prevention routine back in post #2346 on page 118, which really helped me get things back on track, though those steps might not be quite enough for what you're dealing with right now.

It's interesting that you mentioned constipation, because isn't having hard stools usually the big trigger for hemorrhoids in the first place? It feels like constipation and hemorrhoids are pretty much two sides of the same coin. 😢

Once you've got everything under control, maybe take some time to think about what lifestyle tweaks you could make to keep it from coming back.

There are tons of links out there online that look at this exact issue from all sorts of different angles.
The strictly scientific crowd tends to totally ignore alternative methods, even though those approaches can still work—maybe a little more slowly, but they feel more natural to me when it comes to staying ahead of things.

You'll probably see the best results if you just try combining both worlds.
Just remember, prevention and holistic stuff shouldn't be used as a substitute for actual medicine when you're in the middle of an acute flare-up!

a.) Conventional medicine
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/constipation/symptoms-causes/syc-20353961

b.) Alternative approach
http://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-to-relieve-constipation

Hope you feel better soon. Boomer. ☕
Angela Smith32 Angela Smith32 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Jul 2012
#848 ·
Hello everyone,
My husband is going through an absolute nightmare right now with hemorrhoids. He took two boxes of $267 over a 14-day period, but the pain has come back even worse than before, and the bleeding is more intense than anything we've seen. Even using Always pads isn't helping much; he leaves a trace wherever he sits. He ended up in the ER last night, but after being exhausted by all the examinations in the surgical department, they just sent him home with instructions to pick up some Detralex $40 and follow up in seven days. The problem is, the pain isn't letting up at all, and the bleeding hasn't slowed down either. I read somewhere on here that Lidoproct is effective, so I was wondering if anyone knows where we might be able to find it locally? We are living in San Diego, and tomorrow we’ll be calling clinics in NYC to see who can get him in for surgery as soon as possible. I’m assuming he might be dealing with stage 4 at this point. In the meantime, I am just looking for any advice on what he can use to manage the pain and reduce the bleeding, just enough to help him hold out until the surgery, which we are hoping happens very soon. Thank you so much, and sending warm wishes from San Diego!!
Patrick Ramos82 Patrick Ramos82 Newcomer
1 message
joined Apr 2012
#849 ·
feralsurfer172 said:Hey there, Lola.

I’ve only dealt with mild cases of hemorrhoids myself—thankfully—but if I were in your shoes, I’d say a doctor's advice and standard medical treatments should always come first. Honestly, anonymous people on a forum—myself included—can sometimes offer more practical advice than a physician can. 😕

I previously shared what I’ve been doing personally regarding prevention—check back on post #2346, page 118—and honestly, those steps really turned things around for me. But looking at your situation, I don't think those specific measures are going to cut it for you.

IIt’s pretty telling that you’re bringing up prison—because if you actually end up facing the death penalty, isn't that basically a guaranteed trigger for hemorrhoids? I mean, isn't constipation just as much of an issue as hemorrhoids are? 😢

Once you’ve managed to get everything back on track—and I mean really stabilized—it might be worth taking a moment to think about what kind of lifestyle shifts you can actually make.

If you look at the links provided below—and honestly, there are endless versions of this floating around the web—you'll see that people are looking at this exact same issue from all sorts of different angles.
A strictly scientific approach tends to completely overlook alternative methods—even when those alternatives actually show results. Sure, they might be less potent, but they are more natural, which in my opinion makes them far more effective when it comes to preventative care.

You probably get the best results by combining both approaches—it’s really about finding that sweet spot between the two.
Prevention and alternative therapies can't be used as substitutes for traditional medicine when you're dealing with the acute phase of an illness—it just isn't a fair comparison. While staying healthy through lifestyle changes is important, once things hit a critical point, you need the heavy hitters. You can't expect holistic approaches to do the job of modern medical science during an emergency.

Pfizer (precision medicine)
The link discusses the legalities surrounding prison sentences—specifically how they are served and the implications of being incarcerated within the American justice system. It’s a heavy subject, to say the least, but an important one if you want to understand how the law actually functions when things go wrong. The core idea here is about the mechanics of sentencing and what happens once a judgment is handed down by a court. It touches on the reality that once someone enters the system, their life becomes governed by very strict, often rigid, institutional rules. There is a certain finality to a prison sentence that people often overlook when they are just discussing crime in the abstract—it isn't just about the punishment itself, but the total loss of autonomy that follows. It also dives into the distinction between different types of confinement and how the state manages those who have been convicted. It’s a sobering look at the intersection of judicial decisions and the actual lived experience of being behind bars in the US. It definitely makes you think twice about the weight of a courtroom verdict.

b.) an alternative approach
I’ve been thinking about how we handle our local politics—specifically how much influence big money actually holds over the people making the rules. It feels like we're constantly being told that everything is transparent and democratic, yet when you look at the way certain interest groups pull the strings behind the scenes, it paints a much different picture. The reality is that our political system isn't just a collection of voters and candidates; it’s a complex machine fueled by campaign contributions and lobbying efforts. When massive corporations or wealthy donors pour millions into a race, they aren't doing it out of pure patriotism—they’re buying access. They want to make sure that when a bill hits the floor in D.C., there’s already a seat reserved for them at the table. It creates this frustrating cycle where the average person—someone working a 9-to-5 in a place like Chicago or Phoenix—feels completely disconnected from the legislative process. You cast your vote, you feel like you've had your say, but then you watch as policy decisions seem to favor special interests rather than the public good. It’s hard not to feel like the "will of the people" is often just a secondary consideration once the checks have cleared. We talk a lot about reform, but true change would require dismantling the very structures that allow this level of influence to exist. It’s a tall order, honestly—changing the way power is distributed is never easy—but if we don't address the sheer scale of corporate involvement in our elections, we might find ourselves living in a system that serves everyone except the actual citizens.

I hope you have a quick recovery, Boomer. ☕

Hard stools aren't really my issue—I can deal with straining from sunrise to sunset if I have to—but I once used this specific herbal laxative that just completely wrecked my system. It irritated my colon so badly that it ended up triggering hemorrhoids, so I don't touch that stuff anymore.🙂For instance, a few days ago I had this terrible headache—it was brutal—and then I ended up having two servings of coffee and a puff on my vape, followed by some serious stomach issues. Now, it’s like mushrooms popping up after a rainstorm; it’s pretty obvious that either the caffeine or the vaping triggered it—so I’ve cut out the coffee entirely. Right now, things are still about the size of a walnut, but there's no pain, and my digestion has returned to being totally normal and regular. My doctor also prescribed some medication recently, which has left me feeling incredibly calm and settled.🙂I’ve been using Daisy’s balm lately—it’s honestly been my biggest lifesaver. I’ve just been sticking to a strict routine of washing and applying it regularly, and things are finally looking up. Still, I know I need to schedule an appointment with a specialist soon. There’s a history of colon cancer in my family, so I can't really skip that step—it's something I have to get ahead of. I'm not overly worried, though; my mom says she’s dealt with this her whole life, and it's just one of those things that flares up occasionally. Thanks for all the support, everyone. — Lola
Patrick Ramos82 Patrick Ramos82 Newcomer
1 message
joined Apr 2012
#850 ·
Angela Smith32 said:Hello,
my husband is dealing with some really intense hemorrhoid issues—he took two boxes of Pilex $267 over 14 days, but the pain just came back even worse, and the bleeding is more frequent than ever. Even using Always pads isn't helping much; he leaves a trace wherever he sits. He ended up in the ER last night, but they just exhausted him with surgical exams and sent him home with a prescription for Detralex $40 and instructions to follow up in seven days. The pain hasn't let up, and the bleeding hasn't slowed down at all. I read here that Lidoproct is effective, so I was wondering if anyone knows where to pick that up locally—we are in San Diego. Tomorrow we are calling clinics in New York City to see who can take him in for surgery as soon as possible; I'm assuming he's at stage 4. I'm mainly looking for advice on what he can use to manage the pain and reduce the bleeding just to get him through until the surgery, which we hope happens very soon. Thanks so much, and best regards from San Diego!!

I went to the ER myself and they didn't give me anything🙂, and mine are stage 3. They actually asked me, "Are you really coming to the ER because of hemorrhoids?" I have six walnut-sized hemorrhoids—they practically had to carry me to the car, and they offered nothing. It was incredibly painful, burning and bleeding constantly; I was even having to use tampons. Honestly, someone should just take Voltaren suppositories—they work as an anti-inflammatory and can be used in an emergency. Another thing is sitting in a warm chamomile bath. If you live near the coast, the ocean helped me quite a bit—it stung a little at first, but then😍. It's now my fourth day and while it's still large, there's no pain or bleeding. Also, he should wash the area with sterile water—you can buy it at any pharmacy for about $3.25—and if he’s feeling brave, applying a little ice wrapped in a cloth to the painful spot helps. Regarding surgery, it really depends on the surgeon; my aunt's condition worsened and she couldn't sit down for two months!😲 Be careful about which doctor you choose. And try Kevin ointment. For me, my primary care physician prescribed something for the pain that basically numbed my entire lower back area.
Michael Diaz4 Michael Diaz4 Active Member
154 messages
joined Nov 2009
#851 ·
Angela Smith32 said:Hello,
my husband is going through hell right now because of hemorrhoids. He took Pilex (two boxes $267) for 14 days, but the pain just came back even worse, and the bleeding is more intense than ever. Even Always pads aren't cutting it; he leaves a trace everywhere he sits. He ended up in the ER last night, but they just exhausted him with exams in surgery and sent him home with a prescription for Daflon ($40) and instructions to follow up in seven days. The pain isn't stopping and the bleeding hasn't slowed down at all. I read here that Lidoproct is good, so I'm wondering if anyone knows where we can buy it. We are in San Diego, and tomorrow we are calling clinics in New York City to see who can take him for surgery ASAP. I'm assuming it's stage 4 at this point. I just want to know if anyone can suggest something for the pain or to help reduce the bleeding just so he can hold out until the surgery, which we hope happens very soon. Thanks so much, and best wishes from San Diego!!

Google... I am so sorry to hear that...😢 I know all too well what hemorrhoid pain feels like. Please, make sure he doesn't take Metamizole, as that can actually increase the bleeding. I'm not sure where you could find Preparation H locally; maybe someone could bring some over from Canada? But honestly, there's no time to wait. Get him to a doctor in New York City. I've seen people here successfully resolve this through surgery. Good luck...
vividsailor7 vividsailor7 Active Member
217 messages
joined Sep 2011
#852 ·
Angela Smith32 said:Hello,
my husband is going through absolute hell with hemorrhoids. He took two boxes of Pilex $267 over 14 days, but the pain just came roaring back even worse than before, and the bleeding is more intense than ever. Even Always pads aren't doing the trick—wherever he sits, he leaves a trace. He was in the ER last night, and honestly, they just exhausted him with exams in surgery and sent him home with a prescription for Daflon $40 and instructions to follow up in seven days. The pain isn't stopping and the bleeding hasn't slowed down at all. I read here that Lidoproct is good, so I'm wondering if anyone knows where we can buy it around here? We're in San Diego. Tomorrow we’re calling clinics in New York City to see who can get him in for surgery ASAP; I'm assuming he's at stage 4. In the meantime, can anyone suggest anything for the pain or to help reduce the bleeding just so he can hold out until the surgery? Fingers crossed it happens quickly. Thanks so much, and greetings from San Diego!!

Michael Diaz4 said:Google... I am so sorry to hear that...😢 I know firsthand how brutal hemorrhoid pain can be. Whatever you do, don't let him take Metamizole because it can actually increase the bleeding. I'm not sure where you'd find Preparation H locally, maybe someone could bring some in from Canada? But honestly, there's no time to wait. Get him to a doctor in New York City. There have been people here who successfully dealt with this through surgery. Good luck...

In the US, Tylenol is an alternative to Preparation H.
As for Metamizole—it belongs to the pyrazolone group. Even though it has a very strong analgesic effect, it carries a massive, unacceptable risk of serious side effects. It's rarely prescribed in America these days; it used to be popular, but it's been replaced by much safer painkillers.
My recommendation is Paracetamol—Tylenol—up to a maximum of 4g per day, or if the pain persists, a combination of Paracetamol and Tramadol.
Angela Smith32 Angela Smith32 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Jul 2012
#853 ·
Thank you all so much for the responses!!! We have an appointment scheduled for September because that is the earliest the specialist will be available in New York City to perform the THD procedure, but I am honestly struggling to figure out how we are going to make it through until then. Currently, they are taking Daflon (along with Tylenol for the pain) and using Dolokain topically, while sticking strictly to a diet of just soups and yogurt; the bleeding has actually subsided, but the pain is relentless—it’s absolutely agonizing. I would love to ask for one more piece of advice regarding which method is truly superior (or if they are essentially the same): DG HAL + RAR versus THD, specifically for stage 4, if the goal is a permanent fix and the fastest possible recovery. Since DH-HAL + RAR might be an option sooner, there wouldn't be any need to wait until September if the outcomes are identical. I have done some reading on both techniques, but I find myself placing much more trust in the real-world experiences shared by people who have actually gone through it. Thank you in advance, and sending my best wishes from San Diego!!!
Michael Diaz4 Michael Diaz4 Active Member
154 messages
joined Nov 2009
#854 ·
Angela Smith32 said:Thank you all so much for the replies!!! We've scheduled everything for September because that's when the specialist finally arrives in New York City for the THD procedure, but I honestly don't know how we're going to make it until then. They're taking Daflon (plus Tylenol for the pain) and using Dolokain, and they can only handle soups and yogurt right now. The bleeding has let up, but the pain just won't stop—it’s absolutely agonizing. I need one more piece of advice: which method is actually better, or are they basically the same? Is it DG HAL + RAR or THD for stage 4? We want a permanent fix and the fastest recovery possible. He might be able to do the DH-HAL+RAR sooner, so waiting until September feels unnecessary if the results are identical. I've read up on both, but I trust real-world experience way more than brochures. Thanks in advance, and sending best wishes from San Diego!!!

If it's stage 4, you'll likely need an anal area reconstruction too, which points toward DG HAL RAR. Honestly, try looking elsewhere for the surgery; you shouldn't have to wait for someone to fly into New York City... If you were closer, maybe Boston would be an option, but since that's a long haul, I guess that's out immediately...
Angela Smith32 Angela Smith32 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Jul 2012
#855 ·
A huge thank you to such a great man, wishing you all the very best, Leslie!
Ethan Richardson22 Ethan Richardson22 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Jul 2012
#856 ·
I'm dealing with some hemorrhoid issues myself. It hurts pretty bad when I go, though there isn't much blood. Not sure what stage I'm even at. This first started about a week ago, and now the pain is getting pretty intense. I've dealt with some occasional itching over the last ten years, but nothing serious—this is definitely on another level of uncomfortable. I’ve always been super diligent about cleaning up after every bathroom trip for years, so hygiene has always been my top priority, but clearly, that hasn't saved me this time.

Any advice would be awesome.

Thanks!
Andrew Hernandez45 Andrew Hernandez45 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jul 2012
#857 ·
Hey everyone. As you can tell, I’m new here, and I’m reaching out because I’m dealing with some absolutely miserable hemorrhoids and rectal issues.🙂
I’m 19 years old. About six months ago, I noticed a small lump, but at the time, there was zero pain or itching. Fast forward to five days ago, and now the pain is driving me insane—it throbs constantly and itches sometimes. I tried slathering on some lard for two days, which did nothing. Then I tried a random ointment, still nothing. Yesterday, I picked up some HADES cream, and honestly? I feel like I'm finally seeing some progress. The lump is about the size of an olive and it hurts like hell. To make matters worse, yesterday was the first time I noticed bleeding during bowel movements, which hasn't happened before. I feel like I'm way too young for this kind of mess, but it's likely genetic; my mom and two of my aunts deal with this too. What should my next move be? It’s been five days now. My mom says her flare-ups usually clear up in two or three days, which just makes me more anxious... please don't just tell me to go to the doctor.😢
Ethan Richardson22 Ethan Richardson22 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Jul 2012
#858 ·
Just grabbed some Vaseline from the drugstore. My wife swears by this stuff, says it works wonders. We'll see if she's right! It set me back $20.
Nathan Harris Nathan Harris Newcomer
2 messages
joined Sep 2011
#859 ·
Ethan Richardson22 said:Just walked out of the drugstore—my wife handed me some German Vaseline cream, claims it’s top-tier. We'll see about that. It cost $20.

Dunno, isn't anything really special :S it doesn't work as well as Hemoproct 😁 personally I use that Vaseline because Hemoproct makes me itch so bad I feel like I could scrub myself raw with a wire brush afterward 🙂
Scott Martin6 Scott Martin6 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Aug 2012
#860 ·
Hey everyone, I never thought I’d be the guy asking questions about this kind of thing online.
Over the last couple of days, I’ve noticed two little black spots—one slightly larger than the other—right at the opening. It started with this weird, uncomfortable ache that actually made me stop and wonder what was going on. Naturally, I jumped straight on Google to see if I could figure it out. 🤦

From what I’ve managed to dig up, it looks like an early stage of something. I’m pretty sure I know what caused it, too: I skipped the bathroom for over five days last week, which turned into a really painful, rough situation once I finally went. 😢
Basically, my diet has been pretty dry and inconsistent lately.

What I want to know is, for those of you who have dealt with this or are going through it now, what’s the first move? What should I be using? How does this usually progress, and is there any rule of thumb for how fast this turns into something more serious?
😕

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