Spiritualist BV practitioners vs. pseudoskeptic BS practitioners

Let’s wake this forum up—here’s a topic we’ve circled back to plenty of times, but it never gets old. Read through this piece, and if anyone feels like diving in, feel free to drop a quick summary so we can actually get a discussion going.
http://subversivethinking.blogspot.c...wrestling.html

Robin Palmer3 said:Let's wake this forum up a bit. Here is a topic we’ve circled back to plenty of times before, but it’s always worth revisiting. Give this a read, and if you feel like it, drop a quick summary so we can get a discussion going.
http://subversivethinking.blogspot.c...wrestling.html

I'm sticking to the first part of my signature here. 🙂

Those first two lines I just read? They hit the nail on the head.

The author really hit the nail on the head here. I definitely agree that while there's valid criticism coming from both sides, people tend to go overboard when they start tearing things down. The real issue with these "spiritual" or non-material skills is how easy it is to get lost in the grind—spending decades practicing endless routines just to chase some vague sense of "enlightenment" twenty years down the line. Of course, that isn't true for every discipline, or every master and gym out there. Still, it can be incredibly disorienting to commit to something where you might see results in two decades, assuming you even live to be a hundred. A lot of people also love to unnecessarily mystify the way training should actually look.

As for the more "practical" sports and combat systems, I think the author covered most of the ground... let me try to jot down my thoughts if I can remember them clearly.

I feel like this topic hasn't been chewed over on this forum since the day of the CHE meet (legend status)...

The real issue is how traditional martial arts have been watered down. Back in the day, they were developed just like MMA is today—it was survival of the fittest. Whoever came out on top of the most fights earned the right to go to war while everyone else stayed sidelined. A lot of that comes down to culture, too—for example, grappling—specifically ground fighting—was pretty much ignored in China because they saw it as beneath them. Since the way most enthusiasts practice traditional martial arts hasn't actually served a combat purpose in at least a century, you could argue they've become archaic... basically just turned into a form of performance art.

I gotta admit, messing around with different styles has given me some experiences I can't really explain with "science." Does that make me a cultist? 🤷

(And as for all that mysticism stuff, that’s just what people pull when they either don't know what they're actually supposed to be training, or they're just jerking students around.)

Most martial arts basically grew out of cultures where religion and spirituality were everywhere. This whole thing about fighting or MMA being some kind of atheist statement is BS—the Greeks literally thought gods were guiding their every move in the ring.🙄 Same goes for Muay Thai coming from Buddhist monks. Personally, I put hardcore skeptics and those New Age spiritual fanatics in the exact same trash bin... both sides are just blinded by extremes and totally missing the point.
I’m skeptical about spiritual stuff myself, but you can't just ignore certain findings in scientific circles. There's proof that prayer under specific circumstances can actually heal illnesses—and we aren't talking about a placebo effect here. Because of that, they're opening a center for spirituality in medicine over in Washington, D.C. A family friend of mine—one of the big-shot professors at a top medical school helping run this center—told me straight up that there are certain energies that affect people, even in martial arts (since I did karate for years). Now, if he's just a fanatic or full of crap, who knows what's actually legit...
Look, I don't buy into the whole spiritualism vibe, but I train traditional styles with the same mindset as modern ones—nobody's trying to convert me or anything. At the end of the day, it's a personal choice whether you want to believe the traditional interpretations or not.

I honestly think all this "spiritual" stuff in martial arts was just tacked on way after the practical side was already figured out. Like using Mikkyo or Zen as a mental crutch to feel secure or handle fear. Or those Taoist principles in Chinese martial arts—just a way to give boxing some intellectual street cred. Concepts like chi or pneuma are basically just old-school attempts to explain how the body actually works, not an attempt to turn a skill set into a religion. Just because certain systems trigger weird physical sensations—tingling, electric shocks, paralysis, or feeling like someone else is pulling your strings—doesn't mean it’s religious... :P

(The idea that prayer heals people, including those cases of spontaneous recovery, usually boils down to a misdiagnosis rather than an actual miracle.)

Still, there's a reason you can't just slap a scientific label on everything. Maybe we could split it up: "supernatural" being the stuff we can't explain, and "spiritual" being a method for self-improvement?

I'll give you this—fanatical skeptics are just as much of a headache as those chi-huggers.

briskgull4 said:The author really hit the nail on the head here. I find myself agreeing that while there’s some truth to the criticisms coming from both sides, people tend to go overboard when they try to tear one side down. The real issue with these "spiritual" or non-physical disciplines is how easy it is to get sucked into this endless cycle of practicing every little thing for decades just to reach some vague goal after twenty years of grinding. Obviously, that doesn't apply to every single master or martial arts club out there, but it's a reality. It can be incredibly disorienting to commit to training something where you might see results in two decades—assuming you even live to be a hundred—and frankly, too many instructors love to wrap their training methods in unnecessary layers of mysticism to make it sound more profound than it actually is.

As for the "practical" combat sports and systems, I think the author covered most of it... if I can pull my thoughts together, I'll write more later.

Results should show up fast; BV was created for self-defense, and what good is self-defense when you're 80? If you aren't seeing progress quickly, either the training method is flawed or someone is ripping you off.

Robin Palmer3 As stated by...
Let’s wake this forum up a little. I wanted to bring back a topic that we’ve gone over quite a few times here, but honestly, it never really gets old. Take a look at this text... and if anyone feels like diving in, feel free to drop a condensed version or just some thoughts so we can get a conversation going...
I’ve been spending quite a bit of time lately thinking about the intersection of professional wrestling and political philosophy—specifically how the spectacle of the ring mirrors the grander, often absurd theater of our own social structures. It’s easy to dismiss wrestling as mere mindless entertainment, but if you look closer, there’s a profound layer of ritualized conflict that feels uncomfortably familiar. When we watch a heel dominate a hero, we aren't just watching a scripted match; we are witnessing a dramatization of power dynamics that play out in our own institutions every single day. There is a certain catharsis in seeing the "bad guy" eventually get their comeuppance, yet the reality of modern life rarely offers such tidy resolutions. In the real world, the villains often win through systemic leverage rather than a steel chair to the back of the head. It brings to mind some of the heavier existentialist ideas we've touched on before. If we consider the perspectives of Sartre or Heidegger regarding the construction of identity and the weight of existence, one could argue that the wrestler’s persona is an extreme manifestation of "being-in-the-world." They adopt a mask, a set of behaviors designed to elicit a specific reaction from the crowd, essentially performing a version of themselves that exists solely for the consumption of others. It’s a heavy concept when you realize how much of our own "performative" lives in American society mimic this exact struggle... trying to find an authentic self amidst the constant pressure to play a role for the audience. There’s also something to be said about the way authority is presented in these matches. The referee, the promoter, the governing body—they represent the rules of the game, but they are also part of the show. This creates a fascinating tension between the illusion of order and the chaotic reality of the fight itself. It’s a microcosm of how we perceive law and governance in the States; we want to believe the rules are being followed, even while we suspect the outcome was decided behind closed doors long before the bell rang...

What kind of site is this, exactly...?😕😲
The only thing he actually said was that martial arts basically split into two camps: those rooted in spirituality and those that are purely materialistic, atheistic, or just plain pseudo-skeptical...😲
Then you have these pseudo-skeptics who spend their time training stuff like MMA, Muay Thai, wrestling, or kickboxing, all while convinced they’re just engaging in some typical physical nonsense. Honestly, we should probably just introduce a specific category for people who practice combat sports and MMA, because most of them don't fall into that pseudo-skeptic camp at all. As it stands, the pseudo-skeptics tend to be mostly atheists and materialists—two groups that, frankly, aren't exactly known for being reliable sources...🙄And then, if you look further down in the text, they even go as far as to bring up that "Stalinist" influence...🤣
You have to hand it to Jack Shannon; he really knocked it out of the park with this website design... If you ever find yourself down a rabbit hole late at night, you might stumble upon scientificwrestling.com. It’s one of those corners of the internet that feels like it was built by people who take their niche interests just a little too seriously—but in the best way possible. It’s a deep dive into the mechanics and the sheer madness of the sport... a place where logic meets the chaotic energy of the ring. It's definitely worth a look if you want to see how much thought actually goes into something most people just watch casually on TV... But honestly, anyone considering enrolling really needs to be careful. You don't want to accidentally fall under the spell of his whole atheist-materialist-pseudoskeptic ideology...
The rest of the text went on to break down the whole concept of pseudoskepticism...🤣

This text is a perfect example of why an average person might view a philosopher as nothing more than a hollow windbag. It actually started off on the right foot, too... Combat sports aren't some sacred sanctuary immune to lies and propaganda... It’s easy to think that because it’s "real" fighting, everything surrounding it is somehow more honest, but that’s just not the case. You can have all the grit and sweat in the world, but if the narrative being fed to the fans is manufactured, the whole thing becomes a circus...... and then he just completely blew it. What can I even say? Philosophy, I guess...😵

Edit: I noticed there's actually some writing on this same page about evolution—specifically, why it's supposedly flawed...🤣

I was wondering what you think about him, Robin Palmer3. Is he actually sane? Or is he just such a deep-seated philosopher that we ought to give him a pass...😁

hiddensailor14 said:What’s your take on the guy, Robin Palmer3? Is he actually sane—or just some deep-seated philosopher who needs a pass for his nonsense?😁

Look, I'm not saying anything about that guy—honestly—but he certainly provides some interesting premises for discussion on this forum.😉😁.

hiddensailor14 said:...philosopher, philosopher, philosopher...

Why are you getting so hung up on philosophers and philosophy?

rustyangler02 said:Why are you getting so hung up on philosophers and philosophy anyway?

🤷 Maybe it’s because most philosophy is just way too dense for my tiny, flat cerebral cortex to process, and I can never quite figure out what they're actually rambling about. Back when I was an overachieving, overly ambitious high schooler, I tried to tackle Sartre and Heidegger head-on, and honestly, my head started throbbing from the sheer mental strain of trying to digest a single chapter. Fortunately, after a few metaphorical seizures, I realized I should probably ditch that kind of "literature" and embrace things more my speed: Alan Ford, Zagora, and those novels about Leslie Eldridge that my cousin was kind enough to pass down to me. 👍 Taking this opportunity, I'd also like to ask for my cousin's forgiveness, because I borrowed his collection of old Start magazines—back when they were filled with all sorts of interesting illustrations and where you could still catch a glimpse of some hairy female anatomy. Stephen, if you're reading this, damn it, I'm sorry; for a middle schooler, stuff like that felt as vital as a freshly slaughtered dog to a fly... 🙂

To be blunt—I think philosophers are hacks. I don't consider philosophy (or the social "sciences") to be actual sciences. It’s almost an insult to the natural and technical sciences, which are the only true sciences, to group them together with these waste products of human idle speculation. ☕

So, tiger, do me a favor and read the entire text that Robin Palmer3 linked to, then tell me what you think. There isn't much of a difference between this guy (who sees a threat in "pseudoskepticism" and atheism 🙄) and that dim-witted religious fanatic (I posted a link to him in the Humor thread on BV) who believes most martial arts and sports are just stepping stones to the devil and hell. 🤣

hiddensailor14 said:🤷 Maybe it's just because most philosophy is way too complex for my tiny, flat cerebral cortex... I honestly have no clue what they're blathering about/scribbling down.

Real talk—I think philosophers are total hacks. Philosophy (and those "social sciences") aren't even real sciences in my book. It’s actually embarrassing to lump them in with actual natural and technical sciences—those are the only true sciences, while this stuff is just the leftover waste from human laziness.☕

Social sciences and basic life skills definitely aren't your strong suit—your posts make that pretty obvious. 😛 If you ask me, why do engineering schools even bother teaching things like ethics, communications, or psychology? They're all social subjects, yet you call them nothing but the byproduct of human idleness.🙄

Ontopic: Now that I've read the whole thing, I get the point. The guy is arguing that pseudo-skepticism is the polar opposite of spiritualism and mysticism. He's saying pseudo-skeptics aren't acting scientific at all because they don't actually use a research-based approach—they just negate things "in the name of science."
What part of that is so hard to grasp, hiddensailor14?😍

hiddensailor14 said:Look, rustyangler02, just do us all a favor and actually read the whole article Robin Palmer3 linked before you weigh in... then tell me what you think. There’s a massive gap between this guy—who sees "pseudoskepticism" and atheism as some kind of existential threat🙄—and that total nutjob religious fanatic (check the link I dropped in the BV Humor thread) who thinks basically all martial arts and sports are just gateways to hell🤣... seriously...

Your comparison is honestly pretty basic and, frankly, childish.🙄 He doesn't even view pseudoskepticism as a threat—he sees it as an extreme opposite that's just as fanatic as any spiritualism or mysticism stuff.
Let's be real, you definitely fall into that "pseudoskeptic" category, and it's obvious that text just bruised your massive ego.🙂

Honestly, you all are a bit too overcomplicated for my taste.

I can't quite tell if you're being serious or just kidding around here.🙂

placidbison20 said:You guys are way too deep for me... honestly...

Not even sure if you guys are being serious or just trolling at this point... 🙂

I'm definitely not trying to be the center of attention here—just trying to spark some actual constructive debate... maybe...😬

hiddensailor14 said:Back when I was an ambitious little high schooler, I tried tackling Sartre and Heidegger. Honestly, my head just started pounding from the sheer grind of trying to wrap my brain around a single chapter.

Luckily, after a few metaphorical seizures, I realized I needed to ditch that "literature" and embrace what actually fits me: Alan Ford, Zagora, and those novels about Leslie Eldridge...

For a middle schooler, that stuff was like a fresh puppy wandering into a butcher shop. 🙂

So, did you go back to middle school after high school?

You're talking a lot of nonsense here, and I'm not even going to dignify most of it with a response. I'll only ask you one thing, though... You claim linguistics as a social science is basically civilization's garbage. So, how exactly do you plan on communicating with anyone? ☕

If you all want to argue, please take it to the chat spam...

rustyangler02 said:So, did you actually go back to finish middle school after you graduated high school?...

You’ve blathered on about quite a few nonsense points here, most of which don't even warrant a response. But, I suppose there is one thing I might ask you... For instance, if you truly believe that language, as a social science, is nothing more than a byproduct of a decaying civilization, how exactly do you propose we communicate? How would you even attempt to reach an understanding with someone else?...

It looks like the logic behind my sentences is tripping you up just a little bit. No worries, though—I’ll break it down for you. And please, don't feel bad about asking if anything else seems fuzzy...

I’m taking this opportunity to ask for my brother's forgiveness. I ended up borrowing his old collection of vintage *Start* magazines—you know, those back issues where you could find all sorts of interesting illustrations, including some rather questionable shots of women... If you're reading this, Stephen, man, I am truly sorry. For an elementary school kid, stumbling upon stuff like that felt about as intense as a hungry dog spotting a butcher's shop... The only part of this text that actually connects back to my earlier rambling about philosophers and my own mental hurdles is my little brother. He used to own a whole collection of comic books and several dozen issues of Start magazine. I should probably clarify that time isn't exactly linear here; just because one paragraph follows another doesn't mean the events actually happened in that order...☕
Maybe I should try breaking things up into separate sections? Or perhaps adding some timestamps to keep everything in order? It might make it a little easier for him to follow...😁
The start takes place back in the early nineties, whereas the comic strips follow later on. Does that make more sense now...?

When I talk about language, I’m really referring to the toolset used by the "sciences" to function, rather than the science itself. It’s much the same way I view mathematics—I see it through the lens of the language used to deploy it, which is almost exclusively tied to technical and natural sciences, mostly because anything else seems to struggle to find its footing there...☕)
Beyond that, there’s the matter of language itself... Not really... Science... it’s a heavy word, isn't it? People toss it around like it's some kind of magic wand that can fix everything, but when you really sit with it and look at how we actually build our understanding of the world, things get a bit more complicated than just "facts" and "figures"...

@Daniel GarciaI’ll be the first to admit that I was a total nerd growing up... basically a straight-A student in almost everything. If there was one glaring hole in my education, it was German, but in my defense, the professor was a complete alcoholic disaster who didn't have a clue what he was doing. For some inexplicable reason, nobody ever had the guts to fire him; honestly, he’s still teaching to this day...😳 )
Please, don't even get me started on psychology...🙄 If these people actually had any competence, they would have ground through six years of medical school just to land a residency in psychiatry...🙏
The whole concept of social science "methodology" strikes me as a joke, and don't even get me started on their actual theories...🤣

The whole point is completely lost. The article was supposed to be about combat sports, plain and simple. Who actually gives a damn if the coach is an atheist, a Buddhist, a Protestant, or some guy bowing down to wooden totems? It’s irrelevant. Or maybe he’s out there snorting something ridiculous like that guy from San Francisco, thinking it's some secret shortcut to reaching a higher spiritual plane... lol...
How's it going... research-oriented... My approach? Look, I’m not really interested in all the heavy philosophical theorizing—that should have been obvious by now. The only kind of research I actually respect is this: you build your lever or whatever technique you're so proud of (I'll use ikkyo as an example), and then I'll try to shut you down. Whoever comes out on top... well, that's the winner...
It’s honestly pretty incredible how you all... Tempting... It’s like if my coach started getting all deep into some spiritual nonsense or chasing these wild, metaphysical fantasies... I guess the unspoken expectation would be that I'm supposed to just follow suit and embark on whatever "path" he thinks we should be walking together...🙄


Robin Palmer3, do you offer any extra sessions focused on personal philosophy, spirituality, or deeper existential stuff specifically for advanced students, or is that kind of thing already woven into the standard training for everyone😬

hiddensailor14 said:I get the feeling my point is flying a bit over your head. No worries, I'll break it down for you—don't feel bad if you're still lost.

I should probably apologize to my brother, too, since I swiped his old collection of CHEX magazines. They had all those weird little illustrations in them, and back then, you could actually spot some hairy lady business on the pages. Stephen, if you're reading this, man, I'm sorry; for a kid in elementary school, that stuff was basically like a fresh dog carcass in a butcher shop. is just a tangent from the part above where I talk about philosophers and my own struggles, because my brother used to own both comics and dozens of those CHEX issues. Time isn't linear, so just because one paragraph follows another doesn't mean they happened in order.☕
Maybe I should use separate paragraphs? Or maybe add timestamps? Would that make it easier for you to follow?😁

I guess a simple period would have done the trick...

hiddensailor14 said:
Robin Palmer3Do you offer extra sessions focused on personal philosophy, spirituality, and deep mindset work specifically for advanced students—or is that stuff just baked into the standard training for everyone?😬

I’m an agnostic—not exactly someone burdened by religious dogma—so I don't deal much with that stuff. My circle consists of people who practice all sorts of different beliefs; honestly, it wouldn't be fair to bog them down with anything other than MMA and everything else that comes with the sport.
p.s.
It’s an interesting observation—I’ve noticed that my most effective fighters are always those who aren't religious—whether they're agnostic or full-on atheists.😁