Handball Euro: USA vs. Norway ends in a 23-23 draw

Sean Gonzalez95 said:What a king.😂🤣Maybe do a little homework on Bengt, Maksimov, and Brandt first—see if they actually held the reins when it came to their superstars. Then you can come back with those expert analyses of yours. Every one of those heavy hitters, whether it was Magnus Wislander, Tuckin, Torgovanov, Dusebajev, Lovgren, Olsson, Narcisse, or Urdangarin, was a virtuoso. You can't exactly stifle a genius with restrictive offensive plays just because they have the green light to score. Balic wasn't an exception either; if he saw a gap, he took it. Of course, that just makes Lino a clown in the eyes of some, while Balic keeps leading the pack.🤣So, tell me, is Bengt really a clown? He’s sitting on three Olympic silvers, four European golds, and two World Championship titles, all while dealing with Lovgren driving him crazy with those questionable calls during clutch moments. Did he actually coach the national team? If he had been there in Tunisia or Sweden, maybe we’d be looking at another World Cup or European Championship trophy right now. And let's be honest, in Canada, he wouldn't have stood a chance against the officiating anyway. What an "expert."

Get serious for a second.
Back when Bengt first took over the national team and Lovgren was still playing hide-and-seek around the house—with Wislander playing backcourt instead of pivot—it felt like Andersson, Olsson, and Wislander were playing blindfolded. That was easily the most cohesive squad we've ever seen. And let’s be honest, the brains behind that operation wasn't Wislander or later Lovgren; it was Magnus Andersson.
I wasn't really following the game back then. Just let Magnus Andersson take the lead and run the show from the six-meter line. Half of Sweden's strategy relied on that aggressive 6-0 defense and letting Erik Hajas tear it up on the counterattack. For everything else, they just leaned on Andersson, Olsson, and Wislander.
Based on how you described Bengt clutching his head whenever Lovgren took a shot, it’s pretty obvious you weren't actually watching the Swedish team. Bengt started building that roster back in the late 80s, long before Lovgren was even in the picture.
By the way, it’s Urdangarin, not Undagarain. He was really just a role player for the Spanish national team, serving as Garraldi's backup on the right back. Or did you actually think he was ahead of Masip?

Regarding Maskimov and your theory that he calls the shots when the star player takes control—I can't help but laugh. Who exactly was running the show? You claim it was Torgovanov? Since when does a pivot build the offense and direct the play?
Maskimov chewed out Kuleshov for trying to run too much of the show himself, yet you’re bringing him up as an example of a coach who lets his players take the lead?

I don't know, man. I just don't think you can reach the top of handball by playing solo. Isn't the whole point of the game to move the ball fast and keep players moving to create an opening?
That’s exactly what our national team is missing. Luckily, we have one standout player who can create something out of nothing—something none of the guys you listed could ever pull off.
Some of those guys are just raw material—all jump shots and nothing else. And you actually called them virtuosos? Give me a break. Narcisse and Urdangarin, "virtuosos." Really?
Virtuosos of what, exactly?

Sean Gonzalez95 said:Hehe, I don't think you quite caught my drift... look, he was seriously good, maybe even great during the tournament, but he still needs more time before he's considered an absolute elite, one of those legends we see today—though he definitely has the ceiling for it. He just really needs to tighten up his defense against wing players. It honestly kills me when some guy comes flying in from the corner and just casually lofts it over him😠..

Honestly, you can lob just about any goalie if the shooter has enough skill; that’s more about how good the wing player is than anything the keeper did, because once a lob is perfectly placed, it's basically a guaranteed goal...

Alilović is a top-tier keeper.

It feels pretty ungrateful of me to even try and debate who the best in the world is when we’re comparing players from completely different positions. Take Pipe, for instance—the man was easily the greatest winger to ever step onto a court, just someone who could bury a shot from a dead angle without blinking. Honestly, if you look at the game today, a winger with his kind of magic doesn't just not exist; they aren't even half as good as he was. And look, much respect to Dzomba, I really do, but he was never anywhere near Pipe's level when it came to pure technique.

Besides, how on earth am I supposed to compare a guy like Pipe to some pivot, or even a left or center back? It makes zero sense.

Then again, you have to admit that these pure shooters we see nowadays, guys like Bielecki, are just something else entirely; I don't think I can remember a time when we had shooters with that kind of firepower.

But looking at the big picture, handball has evolved so much that it's almost unrecognizable; the game has gotten stronger, attacks are lightning-fast and way more efficient, and defenses have leveled up significantly, which makes it nearly impossible to weigh the impact of old-school legends against today's stars. It’s like trying to compare how dominant Gucmirtl was back in the day to someone like Cristiano Ronaldo.🤷

😂😂..ugh, my bad for calling that guy an idiot back in the chat... and look, Lovgren didn't just show up out of nowhere, right? I can't even remember which specific game it was where they should've finished the play, but Lovgren's face just lights up at the 7-meter line and he blasts it wide of the net😁.. yeah, okay, maybe I said Torgovanov ran the show, but the guy used to have these total brain farts in the attack that had Maksimov pulling his hair out... seriously, don't try to lecture me on Swedish handball, please... man... I've been watching since the '86 era and that Soviet squad in Switzerland during Bengt's first run... Magnus Andersson was such a beast, honestly a tragedy how injuries cut him short because he could've been legendary, but nobody ever topped Magnus or Staffan. Magnus, Staffan, and Ola Lindgren were the absolute backbone of that insane 6-0 defense that carried them all the way to the semifinals back in '96... Lovgren came in later, sure, but Bengt coached him for a solid 6 or 7 years. And Narcisse? That guy will take any shot he sees if there's an opening. Just wait for tomorrow's game and you'll see... even if the coach tells him he'll lose his head, he’s gonna fire away the second he sees a gap. It's just how Ivano is, and plenty of other players too. During those years, the US—well, the whole system—always built success on that 6-0 defense... hmm, if I wanted to be this stubborn, I might as well just say I'm like Lino running a 3-2-1 and claim we can't say anything against it... besides, with Bengt, it wasn't like he was reinventing the wheel. The core stayed the same, with others just stepping in to help... just like with Lino. Five guys stayed in that rotation for 13 years!!! Andersson stepping in for Jilsson, Svenson for Olsson... then later Lovgren, Vranjes, and Petterson filling the gaps and becoming heavy hitters... but they stayed in the mix a little too long... and the roster refreshes happened way too late. Lino handles it better; he gives the young kids a shot much earlier than Bengt ever did. There are way too many similarities in how they fix the mistakes Bengt made—mistakes that caused the US to crash and burn—but Lino actually fixes them in real-time. Pretty impressive for a clown, if you ask me

Look, I’m not trying to be cocky or anything... I can see the momentum building, and I really hope it keeps heading in this direction... because if it does, we might actually end up with a world-class keeper to match the rest of the squad too...

But hey, you can't have everything, right? We had Balić, who was truly one of a kind... and we had Dzomba for a long time, too. I mean, he's still around, but he's just not that same old Dzomba we used to know... the kind of player nobody else could ever replicate...

wearyeagle2 said:The folks running the handball federations and associations definitely know what's up. Word is, over in Norway, they hold meetings specifically about this exact issue. They’re pushing for the World Cup and the European Championship to be held every four years—just like soccer. That way, they could pull off even bigger, more lavish events, and honestly, it would give the whole thing a lot more prestige and weight.

That isn't quite the full picture. Right now, the EHF and the IHF are basically at war over who actually gets to call the shots regarding tournament organization... and let's be real, the core of the fight is money. The organizer walks away with the lion's share of the cash...

That’s exactly why we have tournaments every single year... it's all about squeezing out as much revenue as possible...
Things won't really start moving in the right direction until the EHF and the IHF finally stop bickering and reach an agreement...

And setting aside the international tournaments for a second, the clubs playing in the Champions League have started putting on the pressure regarding how the money is split up... up until now, the EHF has been pocketing most of those Champions League funds... but now the clubs want the biggest slice of the pie... if they don't get it, they're threatening to just start their own league altogether... and since you've got 32 major clubs involved here, that might actually turn into something real...

Chris Lopez59 said:What exactly were they leaning toward? What kind of favors were the refs actually handing out to them?
A little bit of compensation here and there—nothing major, just enough to keep things moving.
The Norwegians get four minutes, we get ten—including two double suspensions... you really think four minutes of penalties is enough to account for all the absolute beatdowns they handed out?

And just how exactly did those refs manage to prevent a full-blown brawl? By calling that four-minute timeout? Please. Give me a break.

Honestly, it would have been even better if they hadn't called that one, too. ☕

Let’s be real—the Norwegians were playing it incredibly smart. They knew exactly how much they could get away with, keeping those hits just "subtle" enough so the whole thing wouldn't devolve into an all-out brawl. Honestly, you have to hand it to the French officials; they practically policed them during that previous match to make sure things didn't spiral out of control. It was calculated.

Alright, figured I’d finally jump into this debate... work was a bit more of a grind than usual today, so I haven't really had a second to breathe, let alone chime in.
So, just to flex a little bit—I’ve been busy getting everything squared away for the trip to Norway. Flights are booked, tickets for the semifinals and the finals are all set... yeah, I'm basically running this whole operation at this point.🙂...who knows, maybe I'll run into the Queen of Torcida while I'm out.

As far as the officiating goes... it wasn't actually that bad—at least if you compare it to how much the refs tended to favor the home teams during past championships... or even look at that Romanian duo handling the Norway-Norway matchup.

Those first two penalties they gave to Norway? Total garbage. Let’s be real—on that first one, Dominiković was clearly positioned in the crease, practically holding the shooter back. And get this: the guy had his back turned to the goal. How is someone with their back to the net considered an immediate scoring threat? It’s a textbook nine-meter shot, nothing more. If you aren't facing the goal, you aren't in a scoring position. Plus, Dominiković was partially shoved into the area. Just a complete mess of a call.

On that second penalty, the players—Balić and either Špoljarić or Metličić—jumped into the block from out of bounds, but they didn't even touch the player or the ball... nothing. Now, if you want to talk about when a penalty actually gets called, look at the very next play. That’s when the Norwegians jumped in from the crease and blocked our guy's shot, knocking the ball out of the zone—that's the kind of situation that earns you a penalty.

People are still losing their minds over the whole seven-meter penalty debate—it’s one of those endless arguments that never seems to die down. You’ve got these folks who swear it’s a penalty even if the player jumps completely out of bounds and blocks the shot while mid-air... they argue that the 6-meter line acts like some kind of impenetrable wall that you aren't allowed to jump over into the crease. Honestly, it sounds ridiculous to me—especially when you look at how the "zeppelin" play works, where a player basically dives into the keeper's space on a teammate's assist just to snag the ball. It's all pretty inconsistent if you ask me.

We end up with ten minutes of suspensions while they only get four—it’s ridiculous. If you ignore that stupidly obvious foot fault from the Vorijevo play (which was clearly intentional, and honestly, the refs were practically begging for an excuse to blow the whistle there), we would’ve had eight minutes of advantage against them, and the Norwegians would’ve been sitting in the penalty box for four. Plus, let's be real, there were at least two other blatant calls where the refs should have tossed those Norwegians out of the game entirely. But hey, you have to factor in how the officials basically gave Dominiković a free pass on that shove through the lane right after the last timeout. Typical.

First off, that "double" suspension? Totally justified. You saw it—the guy was pulling the Norwegian player from behind. It was blatant. As for the second one, we got hit because of that little moment where Vorijev decided to play soccer instead of handball. Just classic.

The officiating was pretty much spot on—they kept both the Norwegians and Balić in check. There was that one moment with the double ball situation where the refs tried to justify giving the Norwegians a 9-meter throw by claiming they were just a split second late on the call... typical.

Every single one of Metličić's drives was totally justified—well, except for that last one where the refs completely lost the plot. There was absolutely no foul there. It’s especially ridiculous when you consider the linesman behind the goal was calling it a charge, which is supposed to be the main field official's territory—so why even bother insisting on a call like that? In my book, that was easily the biggest blunder the officiating crew made all night.

Honestly, Sušeć was the only one getting under my skin here—he actually thought that because Metličić got injured, it somehow constituted a foul against him. Give me a break. An injury has absolutely nothing to do with whether a foul occurred. I still remember this one time I was officiating a game and had to call a charging violation; the player involved ended up dislocating his shoulder during the collision. Just because he suffered a dislocation didn't mean I couldn't call the charge. It’s about the mechanics of how the foul happened during the play, not whether someone ends up in the training room. Simple as that.

And they missed another penalty call for Cupić too...

All things considered, the officiating wasn't terrible—look, nobody calls a game perfectly every single time. It’s really just about figuring out when someone is actually making a mistake versus when they're intentionally playing dirty...

Sean Gonzalez95 said:😂😂My bad for calling him an idiot back in the city. It’s not like Lovgren showed up late to the party or anything. I can't quite recall which specific game it was where they really needed to close out a play, but Lovgren stands up at the eleven-meter line and just blasts it wide. Why bother?😁.

Man, you actually watched that? One. That game where Lovgren missed that penalty, and you immediately decided Bengt had zero control over the squad? Really?

Have you actually sat through thirty or forty games involving Sweden between '88 and '04 to claim something as ridiculous as Bengt losing control of his team?
I’ve watched dozens of games, and if Bengt brought anything to the table, it was a crystal-clear system. He had a center back weighing barely 165 pounds leading the charge—the smallest star on the court—but the offense was perfectly synchronized, and they ran arguably the most lethal fast break in handball history.

Did I say Torgovanov was running the show? Sure, but Faca used to have these total lapses in judgment on offense that left Maksimov pulling his hair out—and he didn't have nearly as much of it back then.

Wait, what?
What nonsense. Sure, Torgovanov missed a few seven-meter shots here and there, but he was practically flawless from the six-meter line. I don't see why he was constantly riding Maksimov's back when he was easily the most reliable scorer whenever he played alongside Gopin in the wing.
Players like I. Lavrov or Kulešov really knew how to get under Maksimov's skin.

Don't try to lecture me on Sweden. I've been watching since the '86 World Cup in Switzerland—Bengt's first outing. Magnus Andersson was a phenomenal player; it's a shame those injuries cut him short before he could reach his full potential, but he was never quite on the level of Magnus or Staffan. It was Magnus, Staffan, and Ola Lindgren who anchored that legendary 6-0 defense that carried them to the semifinals sixteen years ago. Lovgren stepped in later, but he spent a solid six or seven years under Bengt's leadership.

So? What’s the lesson here? That Bengt Johansson had zero control over a squad doing whatever they felt like while he just stood there shouting, "Come on, squeeze it out!" Is that actually how you play the game? For the glory of the country?

Narcisse is going to take his shot the second he sees an opening. Just wait until tomorrow's game and you'll see. If the coach told him to go out there and lose his head, he’d still take the shot if the opportunity presented itself.

Look, my friend, Narcisse is going to take half as many shots as Karabatić, yet he'll end up seeing fewer passes than Girault or Abalo. You can tell me that things are exactly the same under Constantinija as they were with Ćervar, or that Onesta builds his entire game around either Karabatić or nothing at all—but honestly, you might as well just give up now.

Sweden has always built its success on that 6-0 defense. Hmm, if I were being truly pedantic, I might argue that Lino’s 3-2-1 approach is just as valid, and we wouldn't be able to say a single word against it.

I disagree. The US team has been incredibly fluid, switching between 3-2-1 and 6-0 defenses (just look at that final in Athens). Besides, the 3-2-1 setup is a classic part of the old American school used to grab medals long before Lino arrived... think Stenzl or Pokrajac.

Lino handles things better and gives the younger players a shot much sooner than Bengt did. There are too many similarities here—Lino is essentially fixing the mistakes Bengt made, which eventually led to Sweden's decline. He's doing it in real-time. Pretty impressive for a clown, if you ask me.

Look, my friend, Bengt's Sweden lasted 16 years. Lino's American squad has only been at it for five. Don't try to compare apples to oranges.
Lino owes everything he has to Balić. Before Balić came along, he was a nobody, coaching in some obscure minor league for pennies.
Bengt had a rigid, established system; Lino relies on a solid defense paired with individual improvisation on offense.

If you actually understood handball, you'd probably point out that our offensive game is practically non-existent. Why is that? Maybe Lino will provide an answer one of these days.

And you think you're some kind of authority on officiating? It’s pretty much common knowledge how bad American referees can be... unless, of course, you aren't one of those two famous officials who haven't been called for a game all season? Is this just some weird, random combination? People on this forum don't have a clue how terrible your officiating actually is—but anyone who truly follows handball probably just laughs when they see an experienced hand trying to comment on an American ref...

Adam Collins4 said:That’s not exactly the most accurate way to look at it—the EHF and IHF are currently at odds, and they're basically fighting over who gets to call the shots regarding tournament organization... though, let's be honest, the real reason behind the friction is money... the organizer walks away with the lion's share of the loot...

That’s why these championships happen every single year... just to squeeze out as much profit as possible...
Things won't really start moving in the right direction until the EHF and IHF actually reach an agreement...

Separately from the tournaments themselves, the clubs participating in the Champions League have also started pushing for a better cut of the revenue... up until now, the EHF has been pocketing most of that Champions League cash... but now the clubs want the biggest slice of the pie... or they'll threaten to start their own competition entirely... and since there are 32 clubs involved here, that might actually turn into something real...

And honestly, you aren't exactly the best person to judge this without losing your mind—it’s common knowledge what a mess the officiating can be in America... weren't you one of our two most famous officials who isn't even calling games this season? It’s all just a messy combination of things... people on this forum don't realize how subpar the officiating actually is, but those who follow the sport closely probably just laugh when they see someone commenting so confidently about an American referee...

Not saying anything against the refs!!

😂

Going to take a look at the couch. Enough nonsense—just listen to someone who actually knows what they're talking about... me.

Look, I’ve watched more than 40 games involving Sweden, but honestly, that doesn't even matter... I don't get why you're coming at me with this rhetoric in your replies, using those examples... You're acting like there's total chaos in the American squad and like the coach has zero control over anyone, all because of that one thing Balić did yesterday. I was just pointing out that even Lovgren had a moment like that, so what's your point? It doesn't mean Lovgren or Ivano don't respect Bengt or Lin, and it definitely doesn't mean coaches like them can fully micromanage players like that. This is Lin's seventh semifinal, right? (I think...) and can he really keep a grip on this national team for that long? As for the "chaos" in the locker room... man, I don't know who else might be acting out. Just look at Brazil at the World Cup in Germany... now I'm sitting here thinking about Torgovanov's wild shots. He was one of the greatest scorers ever, but he had his own moments of madness. Did he mess up Maksimov's rhythm by fifty percent? Absolutely not, but he genuinely thought he was doing what was best for the team and that the ball would go in. By the way, neither Oleg Kulesov nor Torgovanov even traveled to this tournament... hm, for "personal reasons"... yeah, right, I'd love to know why. Lin's era in American handball has lasted seven years now, and maybe it can only last that long. Let's frame it this way: what was Balić like before Ćervar took over as coach? He never played anything close to that level for his club compared to how he played for the national team. And why? As for Narcisse, people are saying he'll see fewer balls from both Girault and Abalo... but if we play solid defense, even with a 3-2-1, that Abalo guy is an under4

Bryan Nelson352 said:Oh, sure—you’re clearly some top-tier expert on officiating too. It's common knowledge how bad American referees can be... unless you happen to be one of those two famous guys who haven't even stepped on a court this season? Just a messy combination of errors? People on this forum have no clue how much of a disaster your officiating is, but anyone actually following handball probably just laughs when they see an "expert" like you trying to comment on an American referee...

An ex-referee... and those two specific guys haven't officiated since last season—now they’re busy being supervisors and sitting on the UHRS administrative boards...

Look, don't take all your frustrations out on me—I highly doubt you ever made it past a local recreational league, let alone the pros... or any EHF or IHF tournaments... and honestly, if a referee actually reaches that level, they deserve some respect.

There will always be refs with an "agenda"... doesn't mean everyone falls into that trap.

The only thing I’m doing here is breaking down questionable calls... nothing else. I'm not here to lecture anyone... unlike you.

I realized a long time ago that players will blame even the best officials in the world—you miss ten fast breaks in a game, lose by two points, and suddenly the refs are the problem. Sure, why not?

Do us all a favor and dial back the insults. Ad hominem attacks aren't actual arguments, and frankly, they're pretty unacceptable in a civilized discussion. Your entire post is essentially meaningless because there isn't a single valid point in it.

So, go ahead—take your little tantrum somewhere else.

And one more thing: what does commenting on a ref have to do with their actual quality? If Americans, Brazilians, and other "handball superpowers" get to have their officials at major championships, then at least Sokol-Posavec deserves a fair shot...

Adam Collins4 said:The former referee... and those two specific guys haven't actually officiated a match since last season—but now? Now they’re sitting pretty as referees' supervisors and members of the UHRS administrative boards...

Are you seriously defending those two? Honestly, maybe you actually are one of Kavranov's little lackeys—it’s hard to tell sometimes. I’d love to hear from an actual pro, someone who actually plays the game and knows what we're talking about, just to get a real perspective on these absolute idiots running the officiating in American handball. They are a total disgrace to this beautiful sport. It’s honestly baffling to me that someone can sit here, chest-thumping like they’re some world-class expert on our domestic handball scene, and still find a way to take their side.

Bryan Nelson352 said:So you're actually defending two guys like them? Maybe you really are just one of Kavran's little errand boys... I’d love to hear from an actual NBA player who knows what we're talking about—someone who could give us their take on these absolute idiots ruining American officiating... They are a massive disgrace to this beautiful sport, and it honestly baffles me that someone who acts like such a huge expert on our local basketball scene would actually take their side...

I never said, nor did I ever write, that I was defending them... what I said was that in every single sport, and honestly in every part of life, there are people with an "agenda"...

Try reading between the lines for once... I'm not defending anyone...

I know more about certain things than you do... specifically regarding that infamous women's cup from two years ago... you remember that, right?
How they absolutely slaughtered Kraft?

Like I already told you, I'm not here to lecture you or play bodyguard for anyone... I'm just giving a general commentary on the officiating... and pointing out where, in my opinion, the refs messed up...

That's it... and spare me the "expert" talk... I have no idea where you're getting the idea that I'm acting like some big shot in my posts...

Adam Collins4 said:Look, I never said—or even implied—that I was defending them... what I actually wrote was just that in any sport, and honestly in life too, you’re always going to run into people who have a certain "agenda"...

Maybe try reading between the lines a bit... I am not out here playing defense for anyone...

I think I know a few things better than you do... specifically regarding that infamous women's cup from two years ago... you remember that, don't you?
How they absolutely slaughtered Kraft?

Like I've already mentioned, I'm not here to lecture anyone or play protector... I'm just offering a general observation on the officiating... and, in my opinion, where the refs actually messed up...

That's it... nothing more... and I certainly wasn't chest-thumping about it... I have no idea where you're getting that impression from my posts...

Okay, my bad, I clearly misread your intent... I remember the Kraft situation, of course, but it's just a shame that it ended up being such a tiny footnote in their career...

Bryan Nelson352 said:Alright, my bad—misunderstood you there... I mean, sure, I remember the Kraft days, obviously, but it’s honestly pretty pathetic that it’s nothing more than a tiny footnote in their career history...

And look, nobody here is some errand boy for Kavran... Kavran just points him toward whichever refs suit his needs (thanks to Pipa), while Gobac picks whoever fits his agenda... and UHRS is basically stuck caught in the crossfire...

A lot of shady stuff is going down here... and in the end, it's the refs who get burned... everyone is just looking out for themselves—Kavran, Gobac, the UHRS leadership... meanwhile, the referees are just left out there spinning in the wind...

Adam Collins4 said:Look, nobody here is some errand boy for Kavran... he just calls the refs who suit his agenda—mostly because of Pipa—while Gobac picks whoever fits his own interests... and UHRS? They’re basically caught in the crossfire between the two.

There is a lot of dysfunction happening here... and eventually, those referees are going to pay the price. Everyone is just looking out for themselves—Kavran, Gobac, the entire UHRS management... while the officials are left completely exposed to the elements.

I know... my only real confusion is why Gobac is even mentioning that recommendation about awarding a point two seasons in a row.🤷