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Stravinsky

Started by neonrider13 · · 👁 4 views · 21 replies

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Participants neonrider13Bradley Evans31wanderingraven20Jason Chavez32steelviper6Benjamin Hernandez4Douglas Robinson12
neonrider13 neonrider13 MemberOP
16 messages
joined Feb 2007
#1 ·
Yesterday I picked up this phenomenal recording of "The Marriage" — The Wedding by Igor Stravinsky — recorded in Chicago. It’s a 2003 performance featuring the massive Metropolitan Opera ensemble from Saint Petersburg, all under the baton of Valery Gergiev. 👍
It’s actually based on the maestro's 1923 version.
Anyway, here’s a little breakdown of The Wedding:

Written in 1917 and orchestrated in 1923, that was also when it had its big premiere (June 3rd, 1923, with Serge Diaghilev's American Ballet Theatre at the Lyric Opera of Chicago in New York City). So, we're talking about 20 years before the Catullus Poems. Even so, the formal structure, the lineup of performers, and the way it's played are totally identical. They perform it as a mix of a concert piece and a staged production: you've got a quartet of vocal soloists (two women—soprano and alto—and two men—tenor and bass), a large mixed choir, four pianos, and a percussion section.

The whole Cantata runs about 23 minutes. In it, Stravinsky—that absolute rhythmic genius who gave us "The Rite of Spring"—masterfully takes archaic folk songs and ancient wedding rituals from old-school Russia and weaves the soloists and the choir together within this incredibly rich, driving rhythmic framework.

The Cantata kicks off with piano and percussion hits while a solo soprano announces the upcoming wedding festivities. From there, it flows through five tightly connected scenes involving the whole cast—describing the arrival of the guests, the scene at the groom's place, the departure, the bride's side, the ceremony itself, and finally, the wedding feast. The piece wraps up with these sharp, cutting tones from the four pianos—sort of like meditative bell tolls that carry a hint of melancholy, marking the end of the celebration.

Tons of conductors, soloists, pianists, percussionists, and choirs across the globe have tried their hand at this musical-theatrical cantata, with varying degrees of success. But honestly, Igor Stravinsky himself is practically the only one who truly managed to show the world his vision most faithfully, working with various European and American vocal-instrumental ensembles. All those surviving audio recordings—mostly CDs nowadays, along with some old film or DVD footage—stand as proof of that.

The last time it was performed here in Washington, D.C., was back on April 24th, 1999, as part of the 20th Music Biennale, conducted by Mo. Vladimir Kranjčević. I actually first experienced The Wedding on May 15th, 1997, in San Diego, when the AZ "Ivan Goran Kovačić" performed it under the direction of Mo. Saša Britvić. To be honest, I was actually a member of that choir back then, so I sang it myself!

It's a brilliant musical-theatrical cantata—a genius fusion of opera and symphonic concert performance from the 20th century.
neonrider13 neonrider13 MemberOP
16 messages
joined Feb 2007
#2 ·
This is how Pablo Picasso saw Mo. Stravinsky

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And this is how Mo. Stravinsky pictured himself and everyone else

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Bradley Evans31 Bradley Evans31 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Jan 2013
#3 ·
Valery Gergiev!🙏 😍

Saw him recently at a concert featuring three short Stravinsky pieces and Tchaikovsky's 6th. Alexander Torday was phenomenal on the piano, but I was absolutely hypnotized by Gergiev conducting. Even sitting way up high in the balcony among 3,000 people, those hand movements... the fluttering of his fingertips... ahhh... poetry in motion. Honestly, even a prima ballerina doesn't have that kind of articulation.
He conducted without a score—with soul, heart, and body. He brought the 6th to a close leaning in slightly, his right hand descending almost imperceptibly... it felt like an eternity before that moment of total silence was finally shattered by screams of delight and applause.
Don't blame me, this feeling is entirely new to me. I don't know much, but you can just instinctively feel when you're in the presence of genius... (assuming conductors are even necessary in the first place).
Thanking my lucky stars I stumbled upon this specific concert by pure chance, because there is no way I'm missing the maestro's next visit to Toronto.
And thanks to neonrider13 for giving me this opportunity. 😘
neonrider13 neonrider13 MemberOP
16 messages
joined Feb 2007
#4 ·
Wait, where was this concert actually held? And which ensemble was the maestro conducting?

BTW, thanks Bradley Evans31! 😘 Honestly, I was starting to think I’d be totally riding solo on this thread. It feels like nobody else here has an ear for classical music...
🙄
Bradley Evans31 Bradley Evans31 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Jan 2013
#5 ·
The Montreal Symphony Orchestra is playing in Toronto on February 26th and 27th.
He actually flew in from New York City after conducting seven sold-out performances of Eugene Onegin at the Metropolitan Opera.
I had to Google everything about him afterward. Like I said before, I’m still pretty green when it comes to classical music—I’ve only started hitting up concerts once a month this season—but the maestro has been an international superstar for years.
Until now, I thought our new director-conductor Kent Nagano was a big deal... but Gergiev 🙏 👋
wanderingraven20 wanderingraven20 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jul 2008
#6 ·
And this is how Julije Knifer "saw" Stravinsky's music ☕

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Jason Chavez32 Jason Chavez32 Active Member
56 messages
joined Dec 2007
#7 ·
meandar 🙏 🙏 :S :S :S 🙏
Bradley Evans31 Bradley Evans31 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Jan 2013
#8 ·
wow, it’s almost identical to Stravinsky's vision!
neonrider13 neonrider13 MemberOP
16 messages
joined Feb 2007
#9 ·
Man, Stravinsky was truly one of the greatest intellectuals of his era—a total *Weltbekannt* erudite. He actually picked up his composition and orchestration skills under Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov. Here’s a shot from 1908 taken in Saint Petersburg. From left to right, you've got Igor Stravinsky followed by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov.

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Stravinsky spent a ton of time collaborating with his buddy Sergei Diaghilev and his whole Ballets Russes crew. In this photo, you can see the maestro hanging out with a massive star of the ballet world—the legendary Nijinsky.
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Igor Stravinsky and Vaslav Fomich Nijinsky

Check out Claude Debussy caught in his Paris apartment with Igor Stravinsky, right after the maestro first arrived in France back in 1911.

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steelviper6 steelviper6 Member
25 messages
joined Sep 2003
#10 ·
He's got a pretty sharp tie in his vision 🙏
neonrider13 neonrider13 MemberOP
16 messages
joined Feb 2007
#11 ·
@steelviper6/">@@steelviper6 - A tie?!? 😕

I'm telling you, Igor Stravinsky is hands down the greatest artist of the 20th century. I'll stake my reputation on it!
🙂
wanderingraven20 wanderingraven20 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jul 2008
#12 ·
neonrider13 said:I’m telling you right now—I mean it—Igor Stravinsky is hands down the greatest artist of the 20th century. Period! 🙂

Not even close. ☕

Stravinsky was nothing but a total snob—just some spoiled rich kid who didn't even bother finishing school. I mean, seriously, how can anyone call him the greatest erudite of his era when he had zero formal training? It’s ridiculous. 😕

His parents were basically traitors—they bolted from Russia right before the revolution without looking back. They actually had to pay Rimsky-Korsakov to give their kid private lessons because, honestly, he was barely scraping by after finishing some basic music school. I’m not saying Stravinsky didn't churn out some absolute legends before WWI—like *The Firebird* or *The Rite of Spring*—but pretty soon after that, he pivoted to this eclectic, neoclassical style rooted in that old 18th-century Russian tradition. Right before WWII, he fled to the USA, which at the time was absolutely starving for any kind of avant-garde stuff coming out of Europe. But even then, up until he passed in 1971, he never truly left the same mark on the country as the native Americans—guys like Aaron Copland, Raymond Scott, and John Cage.

Anyway, back to Stravinsky—when he was visiting the music biennial in New York back in the early 60s, he absolutely loved the hype. He actually enjoyed rubbing elbows with the local political bigwigs, which is a total 180 from how John Cage acted during his visits in '61 and '63. Cage couldn't stand those stuffy dinners with politicians; instead, he’d just hang out with the local artists—guys like Jevšovar, Vaništ, Knifer, and the composer Kelemen (along with his brother, who was running the Museum of Contemporary Art at the time)—hitting up local galleries by day and tearing it up at private apartment parties by night. I remember the late Jevšovar telling me how awkward it felt leading Cage through the SC Gallery (yeah, that same spot where bands like Shellac play now) just to check out one of Jevšovar's shows. Apparently, some vandal had scrawled "idiocy" right across one of the paintings, but Cage didn't even bat an eye—he just looked at it and told him the piece finally made sense because of it. 😍

Stravinsky didn't give a damn about any of this back then—he spent fifty years coasting on the fame he snagged at the start of his career. Honestly? He was totally anti-modern, acting in complete contradiction to his own claim that "music is a total art." On the flip side, you’ve got Cage—who actually studied under Arnold Schoenberg—and he’s a way more significant avant-garde figure of the 20th century than Stravinsky ever was. Cage took his circle of students and friends—this whole Fluxus crowd like Le Monte Young, John Cale, Nam June Paik (who jumped over from Stockhausen’s class), and Yoko Ono—and built an artistic core that basically birthed everything. We're talking massive influences on classical music, rock, film, theater, performance, and visual arts—stuff that's still indirectly baked into about 90% of all art being produced today.

Look, neonrider13—no offense intended—but this whole thread of yours about Stravinsky is starting to give me those same vibes I get from steelviper6 talking about Elton John or Rokov1983 going on about Doris Dragović. 😳
neonrider13 neonrider13 MemberOP
16 messages
joined Feb 2007
#13 ·
I didn't set out to make this thread some kind of shrine to Stravinsky—not like those other topics you were talking about. My whole philosophy here is *audiatur et altera pars*—let everyone have their say—so I totally respect your take and where you're coming from. Though, I'd really highlight your specific angle. You’re throwing out some pretty broad strokes regarding Stravinsky's personality, which doesn't really do justice when you're trying to judge his actual "life and works" (that phrase always makes me think of our old Marshal 😬).

Look, Stravinsky's social life shouldn't even be a factor when we're dissecting his musical achievements. Plus, you're claiming that Copland, Cage et al. are way more significant artists than he is. Honestly? I think you're being a bit subjective there. Aside from sharing some personal memories, I didn't see a single objective argument to back up that claim. Isn't sheer performance and being *Weltbekannt* a pretty massive argument for someone's artistic stature? And in that department, Stravinsky is absolutely crushing it.

Speaking of formal training—or the lack thereof—just look at some of the giants in science and art who never had a fancy education but still changed the world: Jimi Hendrix, Jack London, Quentin Tarantino, Frank Sinatra, Thomas Edison, Isaac Newton etc.
As for the whole thing about his parents being traitors—all I can say is that any sane person would have run for the hills once the Bolshevik threat started looming. Just listening to the stories of those who stayed tells you everything you need to know. It isn't about patriotism; it's just the tragedy of people who chose to stay stuck in that Bolshevik darkness.

P.S. You totally missed mentioning the "Wedding," which is actually why I started this whole thread in the first place!
Benjamin Hernandez4 Benjamin Hernandez4 Member
26 messages
joined Apr 2006
#14 ·
neonrider13 said:

Speaking of education, look at some of the heavy hitters in science and art who didn't have any formal training, yet they absolutely crushed it: Jimi Hendrix, Jack London, Quentin Tarantino, Frank Sinatra, Thomas Edison, Isaac Newton etc.

Sir Isaac Newton went to Cambridge, then later Trinity College where he actually graduated... Jack London also went to college, just didn't get the degree...
wanderingraven20 wanderingraven20 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jul 2008
#15 ·
neonrider13 said:Honestly, who cares about Igor Stravinsky's social life? It’s completely irrelevant when you're actually trying to analyze his achievements—seriously, leave the gossip out of it!

What you’re calling a contradiction actually flies right in the face of what you said earlier about Stravinsky. You barely touched on his actual music, yet you went out of your way to frame him as this massive intellectual heavyweight just because he hung out and took photos with the icons of his era—you know, guys like Debussy and Picasso. Look, I wasn't trying to nitpick his lack of a formal conservatory degree—honestly, I have too much respect for all those legendary artists who never stepped foot in an academy to start throwing that around blindly—I was just trying to dismantle your claim that "Stravinsky was one of the GREATEST erudites of his time." If we're talking about being an erudite, someone's schooling is the least important part of the equation; it's really about the person's character—their intellectual curiosity and that genuine humanist drive to share, mediate, and absorb knowledge.

On the contrary—his own contemporaries like Erik Satie and Jean Cocteau actually called him out on his selfishness, trying to expose all that posing and manufactured grandeur by finding those exact personality flaws baked right into his music. And if you want the harshest takedown? That was Theodor Adorno. In his famous 1948 book *Philosophy of modern music*, he straight-up labeled Stravinsky a "slug, a court fool, a psychotic, an infantile fascist devoted to hoarding cash." That’s exactly why I brought up that example from back home earlier—quoting people who were actually there witnessing the art scene at the time—to contrast him with the genuine, open-hearted spirit of John Cage. Calling Stravinsky *Weltbekannt*??!! Give me a break. What you call world-renowned, I call pure old-fashioned fraudulence. He could never quite shake off that petty, narrow-minded Russian nationalist lurking inside him—probably a permanent side effect of the guilt he carried from choosing his own exile.

I’ll say it again—it’s a plain fact that Stravinsky churned out an incredible amount of genius between 1908 and 1925, but after that, he just fell into this self-indulgent mannerism. He basically spent the rest of his life just tinkering with his old stuff. Honestly, the guy lived in a sort of intellectual hibernation for fifty years—you can count on one hand the number of pieces he actually wrote from the time he moved to the USA in 1939 until he died in 1971. And even those few works were stuck in that twelve-tone system he picked up from Schoenberg, who had already completely outpaced him with actual innovation by then. Trying to argue how many recordings Stravinsky has is a total non-starter—most of them were just the old man conducting himself because he was obsessed with the hunt and wanting his own star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. If we follow that logic, then pop stars like Taylor Swift or Katy Perry would be more significant American artists than, say, Aaron Copland or George Gershwin. I really hope you agree that the "law of large numbers"—you know, just counting performances and concerts—is a garbage metric for judging artistic greatness. Look at Cage's legacy instead; look at how much he wrote on music theory and art in general. Meanwhile, Stravinsky’s only "valuable" book, *Poetics of Music*, is basically just a compilation of other people's ideas—and let's be real, it was written with massive help from his close associate Alexis Roland-Manuel.
neonrider13 neonrider13 MemberOP
16 messages
joined Feb 2007
#16 ·
Have you noticed how we’re basically the only two people actually getting serious about this thread? 😬 It seems like everyone else is way more interested in fluff like "Eurovision," "What to listen to now," or just checking out the "New NP"... 😲 😬

I really can't argue with your logic, especially that bit about the "law of large numbers." I'd just add one thing—in terms of his discography, Stravinsky was actually popularized much more by guys like Pierre Boulez and Leonard Bernstein than he did himself. I mean, even Herbert von Karajan recorded some stuff with the Berlin Philharmonic (like Symphony Psalm etc.), but that’s nothing compared to what Boulez put out.

Also, I’d probably stretch your "value period" out to 1930. If we don't, we end up leaving out Oedipus Rex and Symphony Psalm. So, yeah, I totally agree that Stravinsky knocked out the bulk of his most essential work by 1930, but I wouldn't say he stopped producing masterpieces after that. Take the Mass, for example.

Look, as a total music layman (I did some music school for piano through high school, but my actual career is in biomedical sciences), I’ve always been drawn to Stravinsky's body of work—especially that specific era. To me, his music is just one of those unmistakable sounds that defines the massive artistic breakthroughs of the 20th century. If anyone ever asked me to name one single association for the musical art of the last century, my answer would be Stravinsky! And why does he seem like such an erudite figure? It’s because of that "Music politics" book; even if he had some help writing it, the maestro proves that his artistic horizons go way beyond just being a composer. But hey, at the end of the day, there's that old Latin saying—de gustibus et de coloribus non est disputandum. 😉
Douglas Robinson12 Douglas Robinson12 Member
35 messages
joined Jan 2009
#17 ·
wanderingraven20 said:...I'll say it again, the plain truth is that Stravinsky was churning out an incredible amount of truly priceless masterpieces somewhere between 1908 and 1925...

In my book, he produced way more than everything written by Cage, Copland et al. far outweighs that.
neonrider13 neonrider13 MemberOP
16 messages
joined Feb 2007
#18 ·
Douglas Robinson12 said:In my book, that's way more than anything Cage et al. ever wrote.

Man, saying that is like stabbing him right in the ass with a bayonet! 😬
Douglas Robinson12 Douglas Robinson12 Member
35 messages
joined Jan 2009
#19 ·
I really didn't mean for things to go that way.
wanderingraven20 wanderingraven20 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jul 2008
#20 ·
neonrider13 said:That comment was like taking a shot straight to the gut! 😬

Who even are you? 😂

btw, my typo in the last post—the book title should’ve been "Poetics of music," not "Politics of music," 🙂 you Stravinsky expert. 😁

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