UFC Open Concept vs. Traditional Closed Systems

Hey everyone.
Glad this didn't turn into a "who's better" ego trip. That’s usually how these things go.

I see people comparing different styles based on how they work on the street. Maybe I'm off base, but this is a self-defense forum. Nobody asks a pro football player 🙂 how much his corner kick technique translates to a street fight.

Funny enough, we had a similar debate at a recent coaching seminar. After talking it out for ages, we landed on a few points:
- "People training any kind of self-defense have a slightly better shot than those who don't. But anyone can get blindsided by a bottle to the head from behind."
- "Athletes are actually at a disadvantage compared to non-athletes in their specific discipline." This is because they subconsciously pull their punches or focus too much on the opponent due to sports rules.
- "Those of us working security (myself included until recently) know the best weapon in a brawl is having more people on your side." One-on-one fights aren't really reality anymore.

There are plenty of other things you can figure out through discussion, and it doesn't always have to be about fighting.

JFK: Some of you might know Matt Thornton, who does JFK. Honestly, he's a better grappler than half the masters I know or have watched. In his video series (7 DVDs, highly recommend!), he often mentions the massive gap between amateur athletes and Olympic-level ones. Basically, an Olympic-level Judo guy or wrestler will handle BJJ guys or UFC fighters without breaking a sweat. It brings us back to: "The man or the skill?"

So, I'd say watch yourself when attacking traditional martial arts. They aren't as bad as the typical UFC fighter thinks. Not everyone in self-defense needs to prove themselves in a ring. Let people do what they love.

And UFC is a sport. That's a good thing.

swiftsurfer80 said:.

UFC is a sport. And honestly, that’s a good thing.

Exactly 👍—they really ought to lean into that competitive spirit more...🙂

...when you crunch all the numbers and look at the facts, it becomes quite obvious that Che simply cannot grasp the nuances of UFC...😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

Zachary Mendoza17 said:...so when you crunch all the numbers, it’s pretty obvious that Che Guerrilla just can't stand UFC...😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

🙂 I respect everyone's take—and like I said before, I actually think UFC has finally breathed life back into combat sports 👍 which, in certain instances, had basically turned into "ballet" because of all those constant rule changes😢

I think swiftsurfer80 is actually making some pretty solid points. It felt a bit strange to see Robin Palmer3 get so... let's just say, worked up about it.

I truly believe there’s a massive distinction between pure skill and organized sport. I completely agree with the points made regarding the decline of Judo and Karate; I suspect we'll see similar trends in other disciplines too. As for UFC... it really is just a distillation of what works from various martial arts. But does that automatically mean UFC is superior to every single discipline in every possible scenario? Not necessarily. I’ve watched certain BJJ matches where guys start from a standing position and immediately dive for the ground without even attempting a clinch.

CAN ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY PICTURE YOURSELF IN A REAL STREET FIGHT AND THINK THAT WOULD BE A SMART MOVE? Seriously? There are plenty of examples...

Jiu-Jitsu is great, but context matters—training varies wildly depending on whether you're a civilian looking for self-defense, a police officer focusing on control and restraint, or a soldier trained for combat.

At the end of the day, let's look at why we train. Is it for the sport or the competition? We choose Karate, Judo, Taekwondo, or BJJ based on our own preferences. If we want high-impact contact, we go with UFC or Thai boxing. If the goal is strictly self-defense, we look toward Jiu-Jitsu, Krav Maga, or wrestling. Why shouldn't someone practice Aikido if they're seeking that specific blend of defense and the personal fulfillment it provides?

Ultimately—and I'll say it again—there is no such thing as the "best" martial art. Because if one truly existed, no one would bother practicing anything else.

Of course, this doesn't apply to the system, which is absolutely top-tier.🙏 😍 👍

Donna Brown6 said:I was watching some BJJ matches lately... guys start from a standing position, and before they can even touch one another, they're already diving straight to the ground.

CAN ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY IMAGINE YOURSELF IN A REAL STREET FIGHT—LIKE, WOULD THAT EVEN CROSS YOUR MIND?!?!?!?!?!?!?! There are plenty of other examples too...

Look, obviously, they're practicing sport BJJ, though that’s starting to shift these days since everyone is incorporating throws from Judo and wrestling.
But first off, let’s be clear: BJJ is a martial art above all else (using your terminology, anyway).
For instance, in a program like Matt Thornton's for blue belts, there are at least a dozen scenarios where you have to defend against punches, kicks, or even being hit with a stick or something.
The very first thing we worked on during techniques with Jacare at the seminar was pure self-defense, like defending against knee strikes and stuff. The fundamental concept is closing the distance and getting that takedown, whether you're going for a double leg or grabbing a collar.
The second issue is just that people rarely actually practice this stuff.

wanderingridge said:Sure, they practice sport BJJ, though the landscape is shifting lately—everyone is training with Judo practitioners and wrestlers to master takedowns.
But fundamentally, BJJ is a martial art first (using your terminology).
For instance, in Matt Thornton’s curriculum for blue belts, there are at least fifty scenarios where you have to defend against strikes, kicks, or even blunt objects.
The first things we practiced during the seminar with Jacare were strictly self-defense, such as defending knee strikes. The core principle is closing the distance and executing a takedown, whether you choose a double leg or a hip toss.
The second issue is that people rarely train this way.

wanderingridge, you write well. There is much to be learned from you.👍

ruggedfalcon2 said:-No, because—let me repeat myself here—combat sports are bound by rules, while the street has none. A UFC fighter isn't training for the most common types of street assaults... I laid out a few examples in another thread already..

Che, look—in the UFC, you train everything that works in a fight, and any UFC fighter is definitely more prepared to react to unexpected situations than some hobbyist practicing so-called "traditional" martial arts.

Che Guerrilla said:A UFC fighter trains in a ring for when the bell rings, raising their guard and circling the cage and so on... none of that exists on the street.😉

That happens to me all the time... the second I hear a buzzer or a bell, I immediately snap into a guard and start circling around—usually while I'm riding the subway!😂 😂 😂

Che Guerrilla said:-The point is once again that one thing is combat sports and another is self-defense on the street... sports and self-defense share no common ground. Sparring in martial arts isn't a game... whereas a sporting competition is a game..
-A round isn't even a constraint... think again about what the actual difference is between a skill and a sporting game...

Che, if you saw me in person, you’d see the scars on my face from everything I've dealt with in life—or as everyone here calls it: "in RL."
Aside from sports, I've had countless fights in real life (🤣 how dangerous those two little letters are), from childhood right up to today (just three months ago, I "put to sleep" some arrogant criminal from my neighborhood). So, when I read the theories in your posts and those from your supporters, I can only tell you that you and your crowd are basically trying to sell ice to an Eskimo.

Donna Brown6 said:Džija is great, but context matters—training changes depending on whether you're a civilian looking for self-defense, a cop focusing on restraint, or a soldier trained for combat.

If the training is strictly dictated by whether you are a civilian, a police officer, or a soldier, then you aren't learning a martial art; you're just taking a tactical seminar.

Robin Palmer3 said:Che, UFC training covers everything that actually works in a fight, so any UFC fighter is definitely going to be better prepared for unexpected situations than some hobbyist practicing traditional martial arts.

I laid out a few common street scenarios and didn't even get a response... 😁 what exactly are you implying when you say people from TBV are just hobbyists? 🤣 Tell me—are everyone training UFC at your gym professional fighters or what?

Robin Palmer3 said:It happens to me all the time... as soon as I hear a gong or a bell, I immediately snap into my guard and start circling around—usually while I'm riding the subway!😂 😂 😂

🤣

Robin Palmer3 said:Che, if you saw me in person, you'd see the marks on my face from everything I've been through in life, or as most people write here: in RL.
Aside from sports matches, I've had plenty of fights in RL (🤣 how dangerous those two letters can be), ranging from my childhood right up to today (just three months ago, I "put to sleep" some arrogant criminal from my neighborhood)... so when I read the theories in your posts and those from your supporters, all I can say is that you and your crowd are basically "trying to sell ice to an Eskimo."

Why on earth do you think anyone is trying to sell you anything?😕 Has anyone actually pressured you? Is someone trying to talk you into switching sports? Why do you feel like anyone is offering you something or challenging you? This is a forum for discussing and sharing experiences in martial arts... honestly, it seems like you and a few of your buddies are the only ones spitting on everything else as a discipline, insisting that UFC is the only thing that matters because it's "real"... but fine, people have gotten used to it and actually find it kind of funny... tell me specifically, has anyone from the traditional arts ever tried to recruit you or mocked you by sending videos related to what you love? Think about it and give me a straight answer... it’s actually your own colleagues who constantly start threads just to trash TBV...
It's a shame you're taking this discussion so "aggressively"... you and a couple of your friends have openly mocked Ninjutsu, Wing Chun, Aikido, etc... and did anyone complain? No... in fact, people found it hilarious... so I don't get why someone from the UFC camp needs to feel "threatened" just because not everyone on this forum shares your opinion on UFC... isn't this a democratic forum where anyone can write what they want and read what they want? I have to say, it's disappointing to see you getting so worked up over the fact that people—who have poured their time, energy, effort, and above all, their love into practicing what they love for years—seem to bother you so much. And worst of all, you view it as "selling ice to an Eskimo"... as Donna Brown6 said, it doesn't make sense to me either... instead of posting an actual argument on the original thread, you just label the guy a Japanophile who barely knows anything... I mean, really... what's the point?😢

Look, jademarlin26, that’s not quite how it works, but hey, fair enough. Everyone’s entitled to their own take. But you have to admit there’s a massive logical gap between self-defense, detaining someone, and actually killing them. Don't you think?

As for Afr... It’s the same story with Judo, which basically devolved because of the sport aspect. I used to train Judo years ago, and I tell you, we spent a ton of time on ground fighting. Sure, we focused more on standing, but that was mostly because throws are harder to master than ground techniques—at least that was the case for me and everyone else at my gym. Nowadays, ground work is almost non-existent. Look at Karate or TKD... Essentially, only what fits within a competitive sport setting remains. Everything else is just mentioned in passing, and if someone actually uses those moves, it becomes the exception that proves the rule. That's where you see the real divide between a sport and a true skill.

Donna Brown6 said:Look, jademarlin26, that isn't quite right, but it doesn't matter. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, you have to admit there is a logical distinction between self-defense, law enforcement, and homicide. Right?

From a technical standpoint, there is no difference, nor should one be drawn. A skill set develops a complete individual (conditionally) rather than discriminating based on profession. I associated what you referred to as "Džija" with Jujutsu. Were you implying something else?

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant by under the radar.