Where art thou, America?

Given everything going down over the last few days, I’m starting to feel like America is sliding straight into an Ochlocracy.

(Ochlocracy—basically mob rule.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy

For those who aren't political science nerds—and look, no offense intended, I don't pretend to know anything about nuclear physics, so it's perfectly normal that most people aren't experts in political theory—there's a real difference between this and a true democracy. In a democracy, the government responds to the *demos*—the political body that actually functions through established institutions and reaches conclusions based on actual arguments.

We’re seeing it now with the teacher strikes, we saw it recently with the Madonna drama, and before that with Caesar... you name it. It’s like faith in our institutions and in basic logic has just evaporated. Everything is being driven by raw emotion. The people winning the arguments are the ones who are the loudest and most aggressive, not the ones who actually have a point.
Our institutions are weak—most people don't trust them, which basically makes it impossible for them to do their jobs.
Anyone who’s unhappy with a decision can just rally a mob or find a powerful connection, and the officials will fold because they don't want to deal with a public lynching or the wrath of some big-shot politician.

At its core, society is built on economics—the whole system of how we produce, distribute, and consume stuff.
Right now, the tax share of our GDP is around 47%, though if you factor in the shadow economy, it’s realistically closer to 36%.
The shadow economy is inherently immoral; people dodge their obligations to society while still reaping all the benefits. Then you have the "white" economy—that 47% goes to the budget, but when you add in at least another 19% of business activity that relies on corruption-riddled government contracts, you end up with a situation where only about a third of reported income isn't tied back to state influence.
If you crunch all the numbers, it drops to maybe 25%.
The bottom line is that this 66% within the formal economy is all about distribution.
In a society like this, the most important thing isn't producing goods or services on a free market—it's making sure you're positioned correctly within the distribution chain.

And when institutions are weak, massive corruption sets in. It eats away at the social fabric, and the people with less power band together in groups to try and force their interests through non-institutional pressure.

Sorry for the lecture; I'm just genuinely worried about the country I love.
I remember the grand ideals we held when we were first building this nation, dreaming of creating something successful and truly democratic. We haven't hit that mark, and now it feels like we're drifting even further away from democracy itself.

Question for you guys.
Which way is America heading? Toward true democracy, toward Ochlocracy, or some other kind of social arrangement entirely?

I think you’re spending a little too much time reading those trashy tabloids. The whole strike situation—and the fact that they're already talking about more strikes—isn't really about people losing faith in our institutions. It’s much more practical than that. It’s an obvious struggle to cover basic living costs, a lack of motivation, and the feeling that they can squeeze out some better terms before the next election cycle hits.

There’s also this underlying sense of dread that if the tax crackdown keeps up—and let’s be honest, it isn't just targeting the wealthy, since we've seen how the big players often get their tax debts wiped clean—then even the middle class will start looking for the exit. I'm talking about the folks with steady, full-time jobs who, at least for now, actually make more than they spend. It really makes you wonder: what’s the point of having a government if its own citizens feel like they have to leave the country just to survive?

I don't bother with any of those trashy tabloids. I just stick to this forum and whatever news pops up online.
But I actually listen to what people have to say.

Maria Wells14 said:Given everything going down over the last few days, I’m starting to feel like America is sliding straight into an Ochlocracy.

(Ochlocracy—basically mob rule.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy

For those who aren't political science nerds—and look, no offense intended, I don't pretend to know anything about nuclear physics, so it's perfectly normal that most people aren't experts in political theory—there's a real difference between this and a true democracy. In a democracy, the government responds to the *demos*—the political body that actually functions through established institutions and reaches conclusions based on actual arguments.

We’re seeing it now with the teacher strikes, we saw it recently with the Madonna drama, and before that with Caesar... you name it. It’s like faith in our institutions and in basic logic has just evaporated. Everything is being driven by raw emotion. The people winning the arguments are the ones who are the loudest and most aggressive, not the ones who actually have a point.
Our institutions are weak—most people don't trust them, which basically makes it impossible for them to do their jobs.
Anyone who’s unhappy with a decision can just rally a mob or find a powerful connection, and the officials will fold because they don't want to deal with a public lynching or the wrath of some big-shot politician.

At its core, society is built on economics—the whole system of how we produce, distribute, and consume stuff.
Right now, the tax share of our GDP is around 47%, though if you factor in the shadow economy, it’s realistically closer to 36%.
The shadow economy is inherently immoral; people dodge their obligations to society while still reaping all the benefits. Then you have the "white" economy—that 47% goes to the budget, but when you add in at least another 19% of business activity that relies on corruption-riddled government contracts, you end up with a situation where only about a third of reported income isn't tied back to state influence.
If you crunch all the numbers, it drops to maybe 25%.
The bottom line is that this 66% within the formal economy is all about distribution.
In a society like this, the most important thing isn't producing goods or services on a free market—it's making sure you're positioned correctly within the distribution chain.

And when institutions are weak, massive corruption sets in. It eats away at the social fabric, and the people with less power band together in groups to try and force their interests through non-institutional pressure.

Sorry for the lecture; I'm just genuinely worried about the country I love.
I remember the grand ideals we held when we were first building this nation, dreaming of creating something successful and truly democratic. We haven't hit that mark, and now it feels like we're drifting even further away from democracy itself.

Question for you guys.
Which way is America heading? Toward true democracy, toward Ochlocracy, or some other kind of social arrangement entirely?

Maybe ask Joe Biden where he's taking this country ☕

America isn't actually moving in any direction at all.
Politicians are strictly looking out for themselves, the system is fundamentally broken, and frankly, nobody seems interested in changing anything. I guess Joe Biden's main priority right now is the European Union, while Americans will just stay quiet and take it. As for those who don't leave the country...

Chloe Martinez7 said:Maybe ask Joe Biden where he's taking this country ☕

America isn't actually moving in any direction at all.
Politicians are strictly looking out for themselves, the system is fundamentally broken, and frankly, nobody seems interested in changing anything. I guess Joe Biden's main priority right now is the European Union, while Americans will just stay quiet and take it. As for those who don't leave the country...

I think that would be called Ochlocracy.
Pretty sure you won't find that one on an Aristotelian list of government types...

Maria Wells14 said:I think that would be called Ochlocracy.
Pretty sure you won't find that one on an Aristotelian list of government types...

He just wasn't creative enough, I guess. 🤣
I guess we Americans are just built different, aren't we?
Whether we're in the red or the black, I guess what really matters is that we stay unique. 🤣 🤣 🤣

I honestly think you guys are whining way too much—it feels like everyone’s just looking for reasons to be miserable and see nothing but the downside

The third option? That’s just straight-up idiocracy. 😂

It’s sliding straight into an oligarchy.

nimbleharbor10 said:It’s sliding straight into an oligarchy.

Honestly, it’s been a corporate oligarchy from day one, hasn't it?

Maria Wells14 said:Given everything going down over the last few days, I’m starting to feel like America is sliding straight into an Ochlocracy.

(Ochlocracy—basically mob rule.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy

For those who aren't political science nerds—and look, no offense intended, I don't pretend to know anything about nuclear physics, so it's perfectly normal that most people aren't experts in political theory—there's a real difference between this and a true democracy. In a democracy, the government responds to the *demos*—the political body that actually functions through established institutions and reaches conclusions based on actual arguments.

We’re seeing it now with the teacher strikes, we saw it recently with the Madonna drama, and before that with Caesar... you name it. It’s like faith in our institutions and in basic logic has just evaporated. Everything is being driven by raw emotion. The people winning the arguments are the ones who are the loudest and most aggressive, not the ones who actually have a point.
Our institutions are weak—most people don't trust them, which basically makes it impossible for them to do their jobs.
Anyone who’s unhappy with a decision can just rally a mob or find a powerful connection, and the officials will fold because they don't want to deal with a public lynching or the wrath of some big-shot politician.

At its core, society is built on economics—the whole system of how we produce, distribute, and consume stuff.
Right now, the tax share of our GDP is around 47%, though if you factor in the shadow economy, it’s realistically closer to 36%.
The shadow economy is inherently immoral; people dodge their obligations to society while still reaping all the benefits. Then you have the "white" economy—that 47% goes to the budget, but when you add in at least another 19% of business activity that relies on corruption-riddled government contracts, you end up with a situation where only about a third of reported income isn't tied back to state influence.
If you crunch all the numbers, it drops to maybe 25%.
The bottom line is that this 66% within the formal economy is all about distribution.
In a society like this, the most important thing isn't producing goods or services on a free market—it's making sure you're positioned correctly within the distribution chain.

And when institutions are weak, massive corruption sets in. It eats away at the social fabric, and the people with less power band together in groups to try and force their interests through non-institutional pressure.

Sorry for the lecture; I'm just genuinely worried about the country I love.
I remember the grand ideals we held when we were first building this nation, dreaming of creating something successful and truly democratic. We haven't hit that mark, and now it feels like we're drifting even further away from democracy itself.

Question for you guys.
Which way is America heading? Toward true democracy, toward Ochlocracy, or some other kind of social arrangement entirely?

That’s pure fantasy. You really think we live in a country where the people reach decisions based on logic and debate? It doesn't happen anywhere.
You're just kidding yourselves, and then you act shocked when things fall apart. Seriously, what kind of system did we think we were building?

Steven Fox37 said:That’s pure fantasy. You really think we live in a country where the people reach decisions based on logic and debate? It doesn't happen anywhere.
You're just kidding yourselves, and then you act shocked when things fall apart. Seriously, what kind of system did we think we were building?

Look, we're talking about perfect systems here. Obviously, nothing is ever perfect.
There’s always going to be someone getting a better deal than everyone else.

And in most places, that's pretty much the standard.
Otherwise, the whole thing would just blow away in the first storm.

I dig the Latin in the headline—sometimes it feels like we’re being overly precious, sometimes it feels religious, and in this case, it’s just pure melodrama. And man, I love a good melodrama. I might add "touristocracy" to that list too, because let's be honest—aside from tourism, I don't see any other way this country survives.

Maria Wells14 said:Given everything going down over the last few days, I’m starting to feel like America is sliding straight into an Ochlocracy.

(Ochlocracy—basically mob rule.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy

For those who aren't political science nerds—and look, no offense intended, I don't pretend to know anything about nuclear physics, so it's perfectly normal that most people aren't experts in political theory—there's a real difference between this and a true democracy. In a democracy, the government responds to the *demos*—the political body that actually functions through established institutions and reaches conclusions based on actual arguments.

We’re seeing it now with the teacher strikes, we saw it recently with the Madonna drama, and before that with Caesar... you name it. It’s like faith in our institutions and in basic logic has just evaporated. Everything is being driven by raw emotion. The people winning the arguments are the ones who are the loudest and most aggressive, not the ones who actually have a point.
Our institutions are weak—most people don't trust them, which basically makes it impossible for them to do their jobs.
Anyone who’s unhappy with a decision can just rally a mob or find a powerful connection, and the officials will fold because they don't want to deal with a public lynching or the wrath of some big-shot politician.

At its core, society is built on economics—the whole system of how we produce, distribute, and consume stuff.
Right now, the tax share of our GDP is around 47%, though if you factor in the shadow economy, it’s realistically closer to 36%.
The shadow economy is inherently immoral; people dodge their obligations to society while still reaping all the benefits. Then you have the "white" economy—that 47% goes to the budget, but when you add in at least another 19% of business activity that relies on corruption-riddled government contracts, you end up with a situation where only about a third of reported income isn't tied back to state influence.
If you crunch all the numbers, it drops to maybe 25%.
The bottom line is that this 66% within the formal economy is all about distribution.
In a society like this, the most important thing isn't producing goods or services on a free market—it's making sure you're positioned correctly within the distribution chain.

And when institutions are weak, massive corruption sets in. It eats away at the social fabric, and the people with less power band together in groups to try and force their interests through non-institutional pressure.

Sorry for the lecture; I'm just genuinely worried about the country I love.
I remember the grand ideals we held when we were first building this nation, dreaming of creating something successful and truly democratic. We haven't hit that mark, and now it feels like we're drifting even further away from democracy itself.

Question for you guys.
Which way is America heading? Toward true democracy, toward Ochlocracy, or some other kind of social arrangement entirely?

I feel like I’ve spent over twenty years listening to everyone drone on about how we shouldn't suppress our feelings, how vital "emotional intelligence" is, and how we should always "follow our hearts." It eventually paved the way for this era of political correctness, where we're all walking on eggshells just to make sure nobody's feelings get bruised...

And now, somehow, we’re acting surprised that everything is being run by sentimentality. We look around and wonder where common sense went. The thing is, emotions are incredibly easy to manipulate, and I suspect some people are taking full advantage of that. We've reached a point where ignorance is shouting from the rooftops while intelligence stays quiet while the loudmouths get rich.

brighteagle25 said:Honestly, it’s been a corporate oligarchy from day one, hasn't it?

Exactly—it's basically this:

https://www.nytimes.com/index....vna-oligarchy

Roger Perez9 said:Exactly—it's basically this:

https://www.nytimes.com/index....vna-oligarchy

Yeah, except in America, it’s actually taken to a whole new level of absurdity. You’ve got Congress members and Presidents who are basically corporate executives themselves—and the current one definitely isn't the first. At this point, is there even a line between big business and the government? It feels like they're just one and the same group of people.

America isn't a functioning state characterized by robust institutions or even a basic adherence to the rule of law.

The current protests aren't actually about whether the US should be a democracy or not—they are a direct symptom of everything else failing.

In broken, decaying nations—regardless of their specific social structure—protests and revolutions are often the only mechanisms left to force a system toward change. America is teetering on the edge of that exact reality.

America’s in a tight spot right now—honestly, we might finally see how bad the damage is by today or tomorrow.
There’s a massive chance all those winter trips are going to fall through, leaving a bunch of people stuck at home instead of hitting the slopes.
If we don't sort out this total mess immediately—and I mean right freaking now—we're looking at a complete disaster.
We're toast.
Ski season? Dead in the water.
So yeah, that’s the mess America is dealing with at the moment.

crimsonorca42 said:I feel like I’ve spent over twenty years listening to everyone drone on about how we shouldn't suppress our feelings, how vital "emotional intelligence" is, and how we should always "follow our hearts." It eventually paved the way for this era of political correctness, where we're all walking on eggshells just to make sure nobody's feelings get bruised...

And now, somehow, we’re acting surprised that everything is being run by sentimentality. We look around and wonder where common sense went. The thing is, emotions are incredibly easy to manipulate, and I suspect some people are taking full advantage of that. We've reached a point where ignorance is shouting from the rooftops while intelligence stays quiet while the loudmouths get rich.

Logic alone has never won an election. That’s just a myth we tell ourselves about the "good old days"—you know, that nostalgic idea that people used to be smarter before they were constantly glued to Twitter and Instagram? Back then, folks actually sat at home, flipped through a magazine, listened to some Verdi, and enjoyed a nice bowl of chili and a glass of Napa Valley Cabernet. Wouldn't that have been something?

Emotions and passions? They’ve always been number one. Honestly, they still are. Whether it was back then or right now, isn't that just how it works?
I haven't actually read any of Mr. Hume's work, aside from this one quote...😁) rekao:
They say reason should be nothing more than a servant to our passions. But really, isn't that how it works? We feel something first—an impulse, a spark, a gut instinct—and then we look for the logic to justify it. Is there any other way to live? If we let pure logic run the show without any heart behind it, wouldn't life just become a cold, mechanical grind? I truly believe our emotions provide the compass, while our intellect simply handles the navigation. After all, what's the point of being smart if you aren't driven by something deeper?

That's complete nonsense because:

'OUTRAGED BY THE RULING AGAINST THOMPSON FOR USING THE SLOGAN “ZA DOM SPREMNI”: TELL THE Germans THAT THE GREETING Heil Hitler IS TOTALLY FINE'

Members of the Democratic Party are claiming this verdict serves as a "fantastic prelude to the American presidency of the European Union," arguing that while the civilized world views any glorification of fascism as an anti-civilization act, apparently "except for America"...