Russia's invasion of Ukraine: Part 5

rowdytiger13 said:Even if that's the case, I doubt Russ will enjoy realizing just how exhausting and draining it actually is to be an occupier.
The war isn't over yet, and Ukraine has already started kicking off some "partisan resistance" in occupied zones—which is exactly what they're being trained for.
The USA certainly learned how draining it was to deal with Afghanistan... good luck to super-wealthy Russia!

What exactly is the Russian goal here? Taking the Donbas? And then what? The Russians claim once they have that, the "special operation" is over. Like Ukrainians will just stop fighting? It’s not like one side can just end a war by themselves. One side can start it, sure, but ending it... well, I'm sure the Ukrainians are asking themselves that very question right now. They fought tooth and nail at the very beginning, back when most of the West was predicting Kyiv would fall in a matter of days—Kyiv surrounded, the airport gone... but they fought with whatever they had. Once the Russians grab territory, they have to hold it. There are already reports coming out of the DPR and LPR about people leaking Russian positions to the Ukrainian military: partisans, soldiers, even regular civilians. Civilians won't bow to Russian pressure, doctors and teachers refuse to work—people are coming in from Russia to fill the gaps only to be sent right back home...

rowdytiger13 said:Even if that's the case, I doubt Russ will enjoy realizing just how exhausting and draining it actually is to be an occupier.
The war isn't over yet, and Ukraine has already started kicking off some "partisan resistance" in occupied zones—which is exactly what they're being trained for.
The USA certainly learned how draining it was to deal with Afghanistan... good luck to super-wealthy Russia!

The Taliban and various Islamist groups of all stripes are essentially the textbook definition of how to run a partisan insurgency. If this war keeps up at this pace, there won't be many Ukrainians left; most will end up as refugees. Those who don't care will stay behind, while those who want out will head straight for Western countries or Western Europe.

Kate Cook27 said:Whatever happens, I'd much rather fight and lose than just throw in the towel right away. Honestly, what outcome could Ukrainians possibly be unhappy with?

You mean they launch a massive counteroffensive with a "million" soldiers, lose them all, and then let the Russians just stroll right into Lviv... roughly speaking.

If Ukrainians lost a million people, that means Russ lost their entire professional army. You’ve gotta be totally... I mean, honestly, you'd have to be pretty clueless to think otherwise.

Jacob Price95 said:The Taliban and various Islamist groups of all stripes are essentially the textbook definition of how to run a partisan insurgency. If this war keeps up at this pace, there won't be many Ukrainians left; most will end up as refugees. Those who don't care will stay behind, while those who want out will head straight for Western countries or Western Europe.

You mean they launch a massive counteroffensive with a "million" soldiers, lose them all, and then let the Russians just stroll right into Lviv... roughly speaking.

Down south, it's just orcs playing defense.
And in the Donbas, it's the Ukrainians.

Basically, they have to absolutely crush them in the south.

Jacob Price95 said:The Taliban and various Islamist groups of all stripes are essentially the textbook definition of how to run a partisan insurgency. If this war keeps up at this pace, there won't be many Ukrainians left; most will end up as refugees. Those who don't care will stay behind, while those who want out will head straight for Western countries or Western Europe.

You mean they launch a massive counteroffensive with a "million" soldiers, lose them all, and then let the Russians just stroll right into Lviv... roughly speaking.

You're underestimating the Ukrainians.
Unlike Syrians, Pakistanis, or even Afghans, they are constantly looking back toward home. They’ve been welcomed with open arms elsewhere, but they want to be home, and they are Ukrainians, not Russians.
It's mostly women and children moving.
Ukrainians will fight with everything they have against the occupiers...
As one propagandist on Russian TV put it: "Why are you so surprised by the resistance? They're basically Russians!"
I guess even that fascist denial of their identity works in their favor. 🤣

Larry Walker24 said:According to Reuters, Vladimir Putin just signed a decree that makes it way easier for Ukrainians to grab Russian citizenship.

Looking at the paperwork on the Russian government's site, Putin’s basically opened the floodgates for a simplified citizenship process "for all citizens of Ukraine."

Before this, according to TASS, that fast-track citizenship was only for folks in the DPR and LPR, plus the areas of Zaporizhzhia and Kherson currently held by Russian forces. Now, they're widening the net.

It’s just heartbreaking—people are having their documents seized and never getting them back. In occupied areas, they basically blackmail folks into taking Russian passports just to access basic humanitarian aid. And don't even get me started on those trying to evacuate to eastern Russia—how are people supposed to actually leave? There are volunteers in Russia trying to help, but they end up getting arrested, hauled off to the police, or harassed; people can't even offer assistance. Some try to help Ukrainians get out of Russia entirely, while others just provide food, water, or clothes. Even the authorities managing the refugee camps for Ukrainians aren't releasing the promised funds—lots of people in Russia are left with nothing. I once saw a case where they brought 50 pairs of shoes for a camp of 300 people. They just watch people struggle. Sometimes I read something and honestly can't believe this is happening in 2022. It's not just the war, the killing, and the destruction—it's everything else. The blackmail, the forced evacuations into Russia, the document seizures, the surveillance, and forcing kids into the Russian school curriculum. Since 2014, there have been ways to get Russian citizenship, so many haven't even taken it, even in the DPR and LPR.

The worst part was when a woman found grenades hidden inside every single one of her child's toys 😢.

Terry Green3 said:Did the US do anything differently with Japan?

They used the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, then walked right into those cities. Those places rebuilt, and people live there today.

Post-apocalyptic scenarios from movies like Mad Max work well enough to scare the public into fearing nuclear strikes, but reality isn't quite like that.
Actually, the scale of what the Americans used is applicable in conventional warfare.

If things are going to go down, why is everyone freaking out and losing their minds so much over Nukes?😬

But hey, you actually made me wonder—does anyone know what finally happened to those Russians from the Chernobyl Forest? The last thing I caught in the news was that they were starting to show signs of radiation sickness, but then the whole story just kind of vanished from the media. 🤔

Jacob Price95 said:The Taliban and various Islamist groups of all stripes are essentially the textbook definition of how to run a partisan insurgency. If this war keeps up at this pace, there won't be many Ukrainians left; most will end up as refugees. Those who don't care will stay behind, while those who want out will head straight for Western countries or Western Europe.

You mean they launch a massive counteroffensive with a "million" soldiers, lose them all, and then let the Russians just stroll right into Lviv... roughly speaking.

And the Russians? Does the Russian government not care about the lives of their own soldiers? Well, Ukrainians have millions too—it's not like they're a nation of just a million and a half people. There will always be people willing to fight. Not everyone is going to run off to the West.

Kate Cook27 said:It’s just heartbreaking—people are having their documents seized and never getting them back. In occupied areas, they basically blackmail folks into taking Russian passports just to access basic humanitarian aid. And don't even get me started on those trying to evacuate to eastern Russia—how are people supposed to actually leave? There are volunteers in Russia trying to help, but they end up getting arrested, hauled off to the police, or harassed; people can't even offer assistance. Some try to help Ukrainians get out of Russia entirely, while others just provide food, water, or clothes. Even the authorities managing the refugee camps for Ukrainians aren't releasing the promised funds—lots of people in Russia are left with nothing. I once saw a case where they brought 50 pairs of shoes for a camp of 300 people. They just watch people struggle. Sometimes I read something and honestly can't believe this is happening in 2022. It's not just the war, the killing, and the destruction—it's everything else. The blackmail, the forced evacuations into Russia, the document seizures, the surveillance, and forcing kids into the Russian school curriculum. Since 2014, there have been ways to get Russian citizenship, so many haven't even taken it, even in the DPR and LPR.

The worst part was when a woman found grenades hidden inside every single one of her child's toys 😢.

That is incredibly brutal, though clearly by design.
Russians are actually losing ground demographically compared to other ethnic groups within the Russian Federation. The goal is to force Ukrainians to become Russians and just part of Russia. Whether it's through kindness or pure force.

Gregory Ramos3 said:If things are going to go down, why is everyone freaking out and losing their minds so much over Nukes?😬

But hey, you actually made me wonder—does anyone know what finally happened to those Russians from the Chernobyl Forest? The last thing I caught in the news was that they were starting to show signs of radiation sickness, but then the whole story just kind of vanished from the media. 🤔

Do people even live in Nagasaki and Hiroshima today, or is that just Americans filming in a Hollywood studio? 🕺

PS. Chernobyl was a hundred times worse than an atomic bomb. While that reactor was exposed, every single second was basically equivalent to dropping a bomb on Nagasaki (or maybe more, I can't recall the exact figure).

rowdytiger13 said:You're underestimating the Ukrainians.
Unlike Syrians, Pakistanis, or even Afghans, they are constantly looking back toward home. They’ve been welcomed with open arms elsewhere, but they want to be home, and they are Ukrainians, not Russians.
It's mostly women and children moving.
Ukrainians will fight with everything they have against the occupiers...
As one propagandist on Russian TV put it: "Why are you so surprised by the resistance? They're basically Russians!"
I guess even that fascist denial of their identity works in their favor. 🤣

I’m not underestimating them at all; I respect their fight, but I’m skeptical about whether it will be enough. Only time will tell over the next six months to a year which way the scales tip. As for some long, bloody guerrilla warfare, I highly doubt it.

Kate Cook27 said:And the Russians? Does the Russian government not care about the lives of their own soldiers? Well, Ukrainians have millions too—it's not like they're a nation of just a million and a half people. There will always be people willing to fight. Not everyone is going to run off to the West.

Oh, please. The Russian government has never given a damn about the lives of its soldiers, whether they're from the western side of Russia or the eastern side.

Terry Green3 said:Did the US do anything differently with Japan?

They used the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, then walked right into those cities. Those places rebuilt, and people live there today.

Post-apocalyptic scenarios from movies like Mad Max work well enough to scare the public into fearing nuclear strikes, but reality isn't quite like that.
Actually, the scale of what the Americans used is applicable in conventional warfare.

America was an absolute industrial powerhouse back then.

Russia is basically a medieval state. Once they run out of gas to sell, even the Middle Ages are going to look like a paradise to them.

I can't help myself, but I don't think they're even doing this to save Ukraine...

The Russians got a little too ahead of themselves and started feeling pretty smug
it's like they've already got a choir of kids singing about how they’re going to hand Alaska back to Mother Russia 🎉
View on twitter

rowdytiger13 said:That is incredibly brutal, though clearly by design.
Russians are actually losing ground demographically compared to other ethnic groups within the Russian Federation. The goal is to force Ukrainians to become Russians and just part of Russia. Whether it's through kindness or pure force.

Well, of course it's planned. It’s like a rerun of the 1930s when they were moving Russians into new territories. Just look at what’s been happening since 2014: they’ve been pushing pro-Ukrainian people out of Donbas. I won't say "Ukrainians" specifically, because you have Russians who consider Ukraine their home and defend it, just like you have Ukrainians looking toward Russia. But they made life impossible there. They claimed everyone under the Russian flag was an anti-fascist, while labeling anyone under the Ukrainian flag a fascist. Then came the "Ukrainization," the nationalism, and all those other labels. Even though the Ukrainian language was technically official alongside Russian on paper, using it was effectively banned. By 2015, they were even going as far as saying Ukrainian speakers were traitors or spies—that they needed to be reported so they could be "re-educated." They even put up murals of Stalin and other figures to act as heroes. I mean, how can Stalin be a hero? The guy killed millions of Soviet citizens outside of any war, and they want him celebrated.
They rallied the people to demonstrate against Maidan, and then back in 2014, leaders from the DNR and LNR were claiming that they would finally hold legitimate elections in Donbas because nothing had been "regular" since 1991. Wait—so you called the people into the streets to defend Viktor Yanukovych, and now suddenly everyone is saying the elections were never legitimate??? Does that mean Yanukovych wasn't legitimate either?
Then there was the burning of Ukrainian flags, the surrounding of pro-Ukrainian protesters, and sending in people to shoot at them, only to turn around and claim: "Ukrainian fascists are shooting at civilians"?
They sent in Igor Girkin, brought in the death penalty—where you could face execution just for getting into a fight or stealing—and those sentences were actually carried out. Once Slovyansk was liberated, mass graves were found; people were just picked up off the street and killed.
They set up prisons to lock people up for all sorts of activities—just to spread fear, break spirits, and leave everyone feeling completely confused.

https://www.rferl.org/a/the-executio.../30743132.html

http://america.aljazeera.com/article...slovyansk.html

https://khpg.org/en/1583020294

Terry Green3 said:Do people even live in Nagasaki and Hiroshima today, or is that just Americans filming in a Hollywood studio? 🕺

PS. Chernobyl was a hundred times worse than an atomic bomb. While that reactor was exposed, every single second was basically equivalent to dropping a bomb on Nagasaki (or maybe more, I can't recall the exact figure).

I think you're totally missing the point here.

You don't just go dropping an atomic bomb on the very territory you're trying to liberate or annex (I mean, if you have even a shred of sanity, you aren't dropping anything at all, right? 🙂).

Even if the blast is weak enough that the radiation dissipates quickly, how exactly do you think the locals are going to look at you when you come charging in with a big ol' smile amidst the ruins? 🤷

The whole thing about being able to live normally in h & n seventy years later doesn't really change my argument, and besides, nobody ever claimed that radiation levels wouldn't eventually normalize over time—even if that normalization takes years or decades to actually happen. 🤷

gentlestag15 said:The Russians got a little too ahead of themselves and started feeling pretty smug
it's like they've already got a choir of kids singing about how they’re going to hand Alaska back to Mother Russia 🎉
View on twitter

Kids are out here singing about how even if peace is an option, they’ll head into one last battle—basically suicide—if Uncle Vova calls them up. It feels like he's literally raising a generation of kids to be suicidal while sending these barely grown boys straight into a meat grinder. And then you have the Russophiles acting like Russia is some kind of moral giant.

Terry Green3 said:Did the US do anything differently with Japan?

They used the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, then walked right into those cities. Those places rebuilt, and people live there today.

Post-apocalyptic scenarios from movies like Mad Max work well enough to scare the public into fearing nuclear strikes, but reality isn't quite like that.
Actually, the scale of what the Americans used is applicable in conventional warfare.

This whole argument is stuck at an elementary school level.
You’re trying to compare today’s reality—where the entire planet is bristling with nuclear silos and submarines—to the end of WWII, when there were only a handful of nukes in existence and zero chance of triggering a global nuclear firework show.

So, I have to wonder if you genuinely don't get it, or if you're just playing dumb. 🤔

Kate Cook27 said:Well, of course it's planned. It’s like a rerun of the 1930s when they were moving Russians into new territories. Just look at what’s been happening since 2014: they’ve been pushing pro-Ukrainian people out of Donbas. I won't say "Ukrainians" specifically, because you have Russians who consider Ukraine their home and defend it, just like you have Ukrainians looking toward Russia. But they made life impossible there. They claimed everyone under the Russian flag was an anti-fascist, while labeling anyone under the Ukrainian flag a fascist. Then came the "Ukrainization," the nationalism, and all those other labels. Even though the Ukrainian language was technically official alongside Russian on paper, using it was effectively banned. By 2015, they were even going as far as saying Ukrainian speakers were traitors or spies—that they needed to be reported so they could be "re-educated." They even put up murals of Stalin and other figures to act as heroes. I mean, how can Stalin be a hero? The guy killed millions of Soviet citizens outside of any war, and they want him celebrated.
They rallied the people to demonstrate against Maidan, and then back in 2014, leaders from the DNR and LNR were claiming that they would finally hold legitimate elections in Donbas because nothing had been "regular" since 1991. Wait—so you called the people into the streets to defend Viktor Yanukovych, and now suddenly everyone is saying the elections were never legitimate??? Does that mean Yanukovych wasn't legitimate either?
Then there was the burning of Ukrainian flags, the surrounding of pro-Ukrainian protesters, and sending in people to shoot at them, only to turn around and claim: "Ukrainian fascists are shooting at civilians"?
They sent in Igor Girkin, brought in the death penalty—where you could face execution just for getting into a fight or stealing—and those sentences were actually carried out. Once Slovyansk was liberated, mass graves were found; people were just picked up off the street and killed.
They set up prisons to lock people up for all sorts of activities—just to spread fear, break spirits, and leave everyone feeling completely confused.

https://www.rferl.org/a/the-executio.../30743132.html

http://america.aljazeera.com/article...slovyansk.html

https://khpg.org/en/1583020294

It's the most raw form of imperialism imaginable.
Conquer a territory, assimilate the population as much as possible, and kill or displace anyone who resists.
And then they have the nerve to give moral lectures...
Neighboring states really need to secure themselves. This is a medieval empire playing modern games.

gentlestag15 said:The Russians got a little too ahead of themselves and started feeling pretty smug
it's like they've already got a choir of kids singing about how they’re going to hand Alaska back to Mother Russia 🎉
View on twitter

Here is some slightly more serious footage of children singing that same Russian hit about "Uncle Vova," paired with some hardline right-wing salutes and a little bit of measuring the wheat height:
https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/s...o-t7bn9_-a9HIA

I also have the full video of the song with English subtitles, featuring a member of the Russian parliament alongside children with such mournful expressions they look like they're singing about the end of the world and the final battle they are prepared to fight.

And, as one Twitter commentator put it—is it Uncle Vova or Uncle vulva?

Timothy Williams5 said:This whole argument is stuck at an elementary school level.
You’re trying to compare today’s reality—where the entire planet is bristling with nuclear silos and submarines—to the end of WWII, when there were only a handful of nukes in existence and zero chance of triggering a global nuclear firework show.

So, I have to wonder if you genuinely don't get it, or if you're just playing dumb. 🤔

We could compare this to the 21st century too, though I don't share your optimistic faith in human willpower. For instance...

The media went into a frenzy condemning reports that during the opening hours of the invasion, Russ tried to pull off an assassination or kidnapping of Zelenskyy via helicopter assault. Everyone painted them as the ultimate villains.
Fast forward to the first day of the invasion of Afghanistan: American cruise missiles hit the house of the equivalent of Zelenskyy—the leader of Afghanistan. He managed to save his own skin.
The difference? In that strike, the Americans managed to kill Omar Mula's ten-year-old son.
Same tactics used by great powers....

That's why I don't see why the Russians wouldn't be just as "inhumane" as the Americans and deploy their full arsenal if they felt backed into a corner.
Especially since neither the Americans nor the Russians have signed any international agreement banning the use of such weapons. And it’s a safe bet nobody would hesitate to strike Russia just because they struck Ukraine.
There would certainly be condemnation. Probably more directed at Russia than the USA for what happened there.

You can draw a direct line between this failed attempt on Zelenskyy where no one died, and the American action where a ten-year-old child was killed....
Morality doesn't really exist in this world. No point in being surprised or thinking certain things are impossible.