Sanctions on Russia

Rachel White said:In what sense does the average American live better than the average Chinese person?

Well, first off, they can ask that exact question on any random corner of the internet, totally anonymous, without worrying about consequences.

Or even just being able to write that the President is a jerk and still be perfectly fine.

Nathan Evans78 said:I am not speaking in generalities at all. It is an objective fact that China is catching up to the West, and Western institutions have already acknowledged this—just look at the American sanctions placed on Huawei. Seriously, it would be pathetic if, after various European empires (like Nazi Germany or Great Britain) spent centuries conquering the planet for resources, we ended up weaker than China, which hasn't even moved an inch beyond its own borders in over a hundred years.🤣

Well, duh, they are catching up, but that’s totally expected when you look at where everyone started. Even back in the US, average wages saw massive spikes during certain recovery periods compared to growth rates in Germany... nobody with half a brain was actually claiming we were going to overtake Germany overnight.

At this rate of growth—which, by the way, is physically impossible to sustain forever—it would still take China decades to even touch Western living standards. It’s probably not going to happen, though I personally wouldn't mind seeing them try.

Plus, let's be real: China's whole political setup probably won't even allow them to pull it off. Eventually, a one-party system hits a wall because, at the end of the day, it's fundamentally inferior to Western democracies.

Gerald Chavez7 said:The sanctions aren't going anywhere until the regime falls... I mean, come on, Russia basically hijacked 500 planes yesterday; that's roughly $10 billion wiped off the books for Western leasing companies. You aren't lifting sanctions until that gear is returned (and that's just picking one tiny slice of the problem).

And let's be real—Russia (whether it's the current lot or whoever comes next) is definitely going to have to foot the bill for reparations to Ukraine.

Which "regimes" have we actually seen sanctions topple so far? Hardly this one—especially since they're just leaning harder into totalitarianism now. Sanctions mostly just push them further into a corner. They aren't exactly feeling any pressure from the West to stop the repression.

And if we're being honest, those planes weren't stolen—they were sanctioned. 🙂
I don't get why people are whining about the planes when "we" essentially seized hundreds of billions in assets—not just state property, but private holdings belonging to Russian citizens, even folks in the EU or Israel. In some cases, it even touches their grown children's interests.
I doubt they'd be foolish enough to hand back the planes after getting hit that hard.

wiredseal7 said:Which "regimes" have we actually seen sanctions topple so far? Hardly this one—especially since they're just leaning harder into totalitarianism now. Sanctions mostly just push them further into a corner. They aren't exactly feeling any pressure from the West to stop the repression.

And if we're being honest, those planes weren't stolen—they were sanctioned. 🙂
I don't get why people are whining about the planes when "we" essentially seized hundreds of billions in assets—not just state property, but private holdings belonging to Russian citizens, even folks in the EU or Israel. In some cases, it even touches their grown children's interests.
I doubt they'd be foolish enough to hand back the planes after getting hit that hard.

Counter-question: what other country under heavy sanctions has aggressively waged war against a neighbor that's only a third of its size?

The only one I can think of is Iran, but even they pretty much moved on from fighting wars ages ago. Honestly, things seem to be going much better for them since then.

Nathan Evans78 said:Look, I have no way of knowing through a screen if you’re actually your country's "average citizen." For all I know, you could be the kid of some corrupt white-collar criminal or someone living off taxpayer money while treating the government treasury like their own personal piggy bank. People like that usually love to shout about how great their homeland is, often while sitting comfortably in their basement. 🤣

It’s not the best in the galaxy, but our negative view of America stems from comparing ourselves to the West or the European Union, rather than China or something actually worse.

In terms of quality of life, we're pretty much among the most developed parts of the world—though personally, it took me traveling through some third-world countries for a few years to actually realize that.

Humans are evolutionarily hardwired to notice the negatives more than the positives; it was probably more useful for survival back then. That’s why it feels like we’re living on the fringes of civilization, when in the grand scheme of things, we’re doing quite well.

As for tomorrow, nobody knows. It’s not wise to project current trends too far into the future. Extrapolating what might happen based on what has happened works okay for short-term forecasts, but long-term predictions are mostly useless.

With most cycles like this, you eventually hit stagnation. The graph flattens out; nothing moves in one direction forever. When that plateau happens is the million-dollar question. If we could actually predict it, investment funds would be paying us tycoon-level salaries instead of us typing away on a forum. 😬

wiredseal7 said:Which "regimes" have we actually seen sanctions topple so far? Hardly this one—especially since they're just leaning harder into totalitarianism now. Sanctions mostly just push them further into a corner. They aren't exactly feeling any pressure from the West to stop the repression.

And if we're being honest, those planes weren't stolen—they were sanctioned. 🙂
I don't get why people are whining about the planes when "we" essentially seized hundreds of billions in assets—not just state property, but private holdings belonging to Russian citizens, even folks in the EU or Israel. In some cases, it even touches their grown children's interests.
I doubt they'd be foolish enough to hand back the planes after getting hit that hard.

Why look at this like both sides are playing on a level field when they aren't? The West gets whatever it wants from Russia. It's the West that imposes the sanctions, not the other way around. That’s why you never hear Russians threatening to cut off oil or gas exports—they know it would be suicide for them.

Brenda Murphy3 said:Look, if we're talking pure economics, that's number one... but then you can always pivot to things like freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of choice, and all that jazz.
When you factor in labor rights, healthcare, life expectancy... etc., etc... is that enough for you, or do I need to keep going?

Why even bother comparing China to the US?

wiredseal7 said:Which "regimes" have we actually seen sanctions topple so far? Hardly this one—especially since they're just leaning harder into totalitarianism now. Sanctions mostly just push them further into a corner. They aren't exactly feeling any pressure from the West to stop the repression.

And if we're being honest, those planes weren't stolen—they were sanctioned. 🙂
I don't get why people are whining about the planes when "we" essentially seized hundreds of billions in assets—not just state property, but private holdings belonging to Russian citizens, even folks in the EU or Israel. In some cases, it even touches their grown children's interests.
I doubt they'd be foolish enough to hand back the planes after getting hit that hard.

Was that sanctioned property actually seized, or is it just frozen? 🤔

Anthony Hill5 said:Abramovich has returned from Israel to Russia. Word on the street is he’s planning to establish an even older and more prestigious version of Chelsea FC

He’s just another one of those Yeltsin-era oligarchs...
The guy made his fortune in Russia before moving West...
Now he's dating a girl from Ukraine...
But honestly, you see how Jews used to flee Western Europe for Russia all the way back in the days of Catherine the Great... they found everything there that the West wouldn't give them.

bluemason3 said:The standard of living.
Better healthcare.
Better education.
Better social services.
Superior infrastructure.
Higher quality housing and construction in general.
A freer society.
Democracy.
Freedom of speech.
Market freedom (though even in China, until the Party decides otherwise).
.
.
.

Honestly, I can't think of any metric where life in China would be better, except perhaps for the elite class.🤔

I'd also throw in:

Cleaner air.
Better food safety regulations.
Preserved nature—especially water resources.

bluemason3 said:The standard of living.
Better healthcare.
Better education.
Better social services.
Superior infrastructure.
Higher quality housing and construction in general.
A freer society.
Democracy.
Freedom of speech.
Market freedom (though even in China, until the Party decides otherwise).
.
.
.

Honestly, I can't think of any metric where life in China would be better, except perhaps for the elite class.🤔

Well, America has its share of an elite class too...
But China has all the heavy hitters—from the Apple factories to Adidas... It’s all happening there.
You’re using products from China every single day here in the States...

wiredseal7 said:Which "regimes" have we actually seen sanctions topple so far? Hardly this one—especially since they're just leaning harder into totalitarianism now. Sanctions mostly just push them further into a corner. They aren't exactly feeling any pressure from the West to stop the repression.

And if we're being honest, those planes weren't stolen—they were sanctioned. 🙂
I don't get why people are whining about the planes when "we" essentially seized hundreds of billions in assets—not just state property, but private holdings belonging to Russian citizens, even folks in the EU or Israel. In some cases, it even touches their grown children's interests.
I doubt they'd be foolish enough to hand back the planes after getting hit that hard.

Have you really sunk this low, whimpering over the seized assets of Putin's thieving oligarchs? 🤣

Only yesterday, everyone was celebrating the seizure of Khodorkovsky's assets.🤦

wiredseal7 said:Which "regimes" have we actually seen sanctions topple so far? Hardly this one—especially since they're just leaning harder into totalitarianism now. Sanctions mostly just push them further into a corner. They aren't exactly feeling any pressure from the West to stop the repression.

And if we're being honest, those planes weren't stolen—they were sanctioned. 🙂
I don't get why people are whining about the planes when "we" essentially seized hundreds of billions in assets—not just state property, but private holdings belonging to Russian citizens, even folks in the EU or Israel. In some cases, it even touches their grown children's interests.
I doubt they'd be foolish enough to hand back the planes after getting hit that hard.

The point of sanctions isn't necessarily to topple a regime overnight, but to make it more impotent and less dangerous—primarily by gutting any high-tech industry they rely on. If the American people—or rather, the Russian people in this context—don't want to go down with the ship, they can always choose to sink the regime themselves.

I understand why they're acting out over the planes; I'm just saying there's no such thing as an "easy" lifting of sanctions. Someone has to settle the tab first.

Paul Anderson7 said:So, most people seem convinced that these sanctions are going to stick around for years, even if they eventually scale back on the essential resources the West relies on.
Personally, I’m hoping that’s the case and that we can weaken Russia as much as possible, especially since they pulled off something like this at a time when everyone thought it was impossible.

It would be a real win if there were some significant change in leadership, perhaps allowing us to demand denuclearization from Russia in exchange for lifting sanctions, though I know that’s a massive long shot.
It’s hard to put any trust in Russia, but I honestly wonder how many of their citizens actually grasp what’s happening and how many of them truly support this war. We can look to history for guidance, and looking back, we see plenty of Russian rulers behaving exactly like Putin does, which is why we really need to eliminate that nuclear threat once and for all. Beyond that, you have to wonder how they manage to maintain all of this and what the actual odds are of them causing a nuclear disaster within their own borders that ends up affecting the entire planet.

I realize I’m getting ahead of myself here, as the fighting is still going on and there’s no end in sight, but I can't help but wonder about the long-term implications and how Russia will ever find its way back into the fold of normal global functioning.

Whether it lasts for years or not is the real question, but I'm with the people who think these measures aren't going anywhere until Putin's regime collapses, their seized assets are returned to corporations, and they finally pull out of Ukraine.

I wouldn't say the goal is just weakening Russia itself; it's more about crippling everyone tied to this whole madness.

"Quote"

Masqueron (No content provided to rewrite.) Have you really hit such a new low—whining about the assets being seized from Putin's thieving oligarchs? 🤣 Yesterday was all about celebrating that Khodorkovsky asset seizure. 🤦

Khodorkovsky was convicted exactly where he committed his crimes—in Russia.
When it comes to those oligarchs, we're talking about assets that belong to them or to Russia—period. At the end of the day, only Russian courts have any say in that matter.

Even if the European Union starts pretending they have any jurisdiction over Russia—it’s a joke—they’re just freezing assets through sanctions without anyone ever seeing a courtroom.

bluemason3 said:Was that sanctioned property actually seized, or is it just frozen? 🤔

It’s basically a theft from the owner—the only difference is that some other party can't actually touch the frozen funds. Or maybe they can, if the big banks decide to play around with those deposits behind the scenes.

From what I've gathered so far, I get the impression
that these massive sanctions against Putin actually caught him off guard.

My guess? He’ll want to roll them back ASAP—but he can only do that if
he makes some kind of formal withdrawal from Ukraine without actually stepping foot out of there.
He'll need those buffer zones in the east to pull it off. Maybe that's why they're
ramping up military recruitment over there?

wiredseal7 said:"Quote"

Masqueron (No content provided to rewrite.) Have you really hit such a new low—whining about the assets being seized from Putin's thieving oligarchs? 🤣 Yesterday was all about celebrating that Khodorkovsky asset seizure. 🤦

Khodorkovsky was convicted exactly where he committed his crimes—in Russia.
When it comes to those oligarchs, we're talking about assets that belong to them or to Russia—period. At the end of the day, only Russian courts have any say in that matter.

Even if the European Union starts pretending they have any jurisdiction over Russia—it’s a joke—they’re just freezing assets through sanctions without anyone ever seeing a courtroom.

It’s basically a theft from the owner—the only difference is that some other party can't actually touch the frozen funds. Or maybe they can, if the big banks decide to play around with those deposits behind the scenes.

The truth is that Khodorovsky was convicted in a trial that was nothing more than a political sham because he dared to oppose Putin; as for the others, once they witnessed what happened to the wealthiest and most powerful oligarch among them, they quickly tucked their tails between their legs and began dancing to Putin's tune just to ensure they wouldn't suffer the same fate.

I can only hope that the West is merely scratching the surface regarding these seizures, and that this money will eventually be utilized to rebuild Ukraine and provide compensation to the families of those who lost their lives.

How did we go from hearing all this hype about the European Union entering a brand new industrial renaissance, to seeing companies like General Electric struggling to assemble a single damn train car without hiring entire crews from Asia just to keep the air cleaner in the States? 🙏🙏

Every civilization follows its own lifecycle, and clearly, the West hit its absolute peak back in the 90s and early 2000s; now, we’re looking at a decline (and frankly, Russia is caught up in that downward slide too). You can technically halt a cycle like this, but the real question is whether there are enough brilliant minds left to pull it off—and more importantly, will the wealthy elite actually deploy their assets toward innovation, or will they just dump everything into tax havens? Without some massive, ground-breaking technological revolution, I honestly don't see anything capable of slowing down China.

Nathan Evans78 said:How did we go from hearing all this hype about the European Union entering a brand new industrial renaissance, to seeing companies like General Electric struggling to assemble a single damn train car without hiring entire crews from Asia just to keep the air cleaner in the States? 🙏🙏

Every civilization follows its own lifecycle, and clearly, the West hit its absolute peak back in the 90s and early 2000s; now, we’re looking at a decline (and frankly, Russia is caught up in that downward slide too). You can technically halt a cycle like this, but the real question is whether there are enough brilliant minds left to pull it off—and more importantly, will the wealthy elite actually deploy their assets toward innovation, or will they just dump everything into tax havens? Without some massive, ground-breaking technological revolution, I honestly don't see anything capable of slowing down China.

😁🤦

Come on... you’re at least entertaining, unlike those typical trolls... even if what you're saying is total nonsense. And honestly, this whole thing about the local factory started with you anyway—why on earth are you trying to compare China to America? And why does it always have to be at America's expense? 😁

And besides, who exactly is going to replace the West when the time comes? Would it even matter to you? A collapsed Russia? A one-party China?

Also, it's pretty funny that you picked the 90s as the absolute peak of Western civilization. Based on what, exactly? Whatever, it's an interesting way to look at things, I guess...🍿

Brenda Murphy3 said:😁🤦

Come on... you’re at least entertaining, unlike those typical trolls... even if what you're saying is total nonsense. And honestly, this whole thing about the local factory started with you anyway—why on earth are you trying to compare China to America? And why does it always have to be at America's expense? 😁

And besides, who exactly is going to replace the West when the time comes? Would it even matter to you? A collapsed Russia? A one-party China?

Also, it's pretty funny that you picked the 90s as the absolute peak of Western civilization. Based on what, exactly? Whatever, it's an interesting way to look at things, I guess...🍿

Fresh news coming in from Eurostat.

euro zone industrial production was unchanged in January fra December , dati showed on Tuesday, indicating a sluggish start to 2022 even before any impact from Russia's invasion of Ukraine, which began at the end of February.

The European Union's statistics office Eurostat Said industrial output in The 19 countries sharing The euro was unchanged month-on-month in January and down 1.3 % year-on-year.

Well, at least this provides plenty of fuel for the upcoming revolution. 😁