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The ethics of cannibalism

Started by Steven Clark2 · · 👁 5 views · 28 replies

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Participants Steven Clark2Amanda Jackson5steelridge58Betty FowlerEthan Gomez82Sandra Murphy33gentlerider7Laura Reyes3Mark Martin10Kenneth Cruz67Joseph Bailey41rapidnomad5shadowcobra80goldenharbor3Terry Martinez10Maria Wells14
Steven Clark2 Steven Clark2 Active MemberOP
85 messages
joined Sep 2020
#1 ·
The motivation for starting this thread stems from these two specific posts, beginning with a comment from Walnut:

Walnut said:One should always consider "naturalness" when engaging in an ethical debate... for instance, it could be argued that cannibalism is both ethically and naturally justifiable if it serves as the sole means of survival (driven by the natural instinct to persist).
In such extreme circumstances, traditional ethical arguments and objections feel somewhat hollow.
Typically, we tend to overlook these scenarios, bowing our heads and choosing not to comment.

And then there is the response from our colleague:

medonaodmoru said:That would only be the case if we relied solely on a rigid, uncompromising set of ethics. Practical ethics, however, is established based on the objective realities of the world we inhabit. If people were caught in a situation of cannibalistic necessity, they would temporarily establish a sort of "cannibalistic ethic" to suit those conditions.😁

Aside from the act of murder to obtain food, many people do not believe there is anything inherently unethical about cannibalism itself. So, I would love to hear some thoughts on this topic.🙂
Amanda Jackson5 Amanda Jackson5 Regular
320 messages
joined Dec 2015
#2 ·
A few years back, I picked up this book:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...ith_a_Cannibal

It's worth a read.
Steven Clark2 Steven Clark2 Active MemberOP
85 messages
joined Sep 2020
#3 ·
Amanda Jackson5 said:A few years back, I picked up this book:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...ith_a_Cannibal

It's worth a read.

I actually have a few more titles on this subject that I haven't quite devoured yet. Forgive me—I mean read. 😁

Do share your thoughts on this whenever you feel the inclination. 🙂
Amanda Jackson5 Amanda Jackson5 Regular
320 messages
joined Dec 2015
#4 ·
Steven Clark2 said:I actually have a few more titles on this subject that I haven't quite devoured yet. Forgive me—I mean read. 😁

Do share your thoughts on this whenever you feel the inclination. 🙂

I don't have much to add. I suppose I’d eat if I absolutely had to. 😁
Or maybe I wouldn't. Who can say for certain in any theoretical sense?
It’s the same deal with killing.
That isn't really a question of philosophy so much as it is a matter of diet.
steelridge58 steelridge58 Regular
397 messages
joined Mar 2008
#5 ·
Even so, they still teach it as a topic over at the Faculty of Arts - Department of Anthropology

I have this memory from when I was just a little kid, overhearing adults talking about how one of my dad's friends actually ate human flesh—they cooked an enemy soldier—back during World War II.

That kind of thing just stayed stuck in my head, you know?
I don't even know how to put it
... it’s just so incredibly hard to wrap my mind around.

Honestly, I can't even begin to grasp that level of starvation.
- I simply haven't lived through that kind of hunger, so I can't truly imagine what it would be like to actually eat someone
from your own species.
Betty Fowler Betty Fowler Active Member
112 messages
joined Apr 2018
#6 ·
Honestly, when you look at cannibalism outside of the actual act of murder, the real ethical gray area isn't the survival instinct—it's how you prepare and season the meat. Take the example our moderator mentioned above: there’s a massive difference between a starving soldier stripping a thigh from a fallen comrade just to stay alive, versus someone taking the time to simmer it into a gourmet soup. Even though they're both consuming someone who's already passed, wouldn't people find it much harder to forgive someone who actually seemed to enjoy the meal?

And while we're on the subject...
Ethan Gomez82 Ethan Gomez82 Active Member
111 messages
joined Jan 2021
#7 ·
Betty Fowler said:Honestly, when you look at cannibalism outside of the actual act of murder, the real ethical gray area isn't the survival instinct—it's how you prepare and season the meat. Take the example our moderator mentioned above: there’s a massive difference between a starving soldier stripping a thigh from a fallen comrade just to stay alive, versus someone taking the time to simmer it into a gourmet soup. Even though they're both consuming someone who's already passed, wouldn't people find it much harder to forgive someone who actually seemed to enjoy the meal?

And while we're on the subject...

Look, we aren't here to swap recipes. The reason one scenario is questionable while the other isn't comes down to simple necessity. Cannibalism implies absolute desperation—the kind of situation where you wouldn't even have access to basic seasonings, let alone life-saving medicine. If you're resorting to that, it means you're choosing it despite having other options, and that’s exactly why it's such a moral gray area.

Even in places where cannibalism was once a common practice, some kind of ethical framework always existed. There were established rules about who could be consumed and when—usually a fallen enemy or a deceased ancestor. As long as you have a society, you have an order to things. Of course, nothing is permanent. When living conditions shift, the social order shifts with them, which is exactly why you don't see that happening in New Guinea anymore. It’s simply no longer necessary.
Sandra Murphy33 Sandra Murphy33 Active Member
239 messages
joined May 2022
#8 ·
I find it highly suspicious that they’re teaching this at the Faculty of Arts; it immediately makes me wonder if there's some underlying agenda at play. It feels like a calculated attempt to predict a future where we're reduced to cannibalism, serving as one last bit of "civilized" preparation for when things finally fall apart. 😲
gentlerider7 gentlerider7 Regular
291 messages
joined Jan 2021
#9 ·
Look, ritual cannibalism isn't actually about being hungry, okay? It’s not like they’re just looking for a snack. For example, if you eat a fallen enemy, it's all about absorbing their strength and taking over their power.
Sandra Murphy33 Sandra Murphy33 Active Member
239 messages
joined May 2022
#10 ·
Do you honestly think we should be looking at that possibility as something that actually makes sense... ? 🤔
Steven Clark2 Steven Clark2 Active MemberOP
85 messages
joined Sep 2020
#11 ·
First and foremost, I feel it is vital to acknowledge that this remains a taboo subject—to some, perhaps one of the last great taboos that we truly need to discuss more openly.

The topic is far from straightforward. Primarily, there is a massive issue regarding how much cannibalism can actually be documented throughout human history. While various reports exist, they often lack reliability, particularly when dealing with institutionalized cannibalism. On the other hand, there are far too many individual instances. Something came to mind that I briefly touched upon in an earlier chat thread:

Steven Clark2 said:I was thinking back to that famous flight in 1972, flight 571, traveling from Uruguay to Chile. Out of 45 passengers and crew members, 16 survived at an altitude of roughly 11,800 to 14,700 feet, where cannibalism was ultimately accepted as a necessity. Quite simply, those who were still alive had to consume those who had frozen to death. They were stranded for "as long as" 72 days before they were finally found. There were no animals or vegetation nearby—nothing of the sort. Just a few scraps of candy and that was it. Apparently, the remaining group reached an agreement: if someone passed away, the survivors could consume them to stay alive. It sounds brutal, savage, and utterly unbelievable, but human existence requires very little to tip the scales. It takes very little for human beings to transform into something unimaginable to the average person. The decision to resort to such things was by no means easy—there were friends, colleagues, and relatives among them. Regarding this case, Nando Parrado, one of the 16 survivors, wrote his memoirs titled Miracle in the Andes (2006). The beauty of Parrado's book is that it was released about 34 years after the event, allowing him to provide his perspective on everything that transpired leading up to, during, and following those 72 days. His mother, Eugenia, and his younger sister, Susy, were with him, though he somehow managed to preserve their bodies, which were ultimately not consumed. Susy survived the initial crash but passed away eight days later, a detail he describes in depth in his book. Interestingly, Nando himself was in a coma for three days immediately after the accident, yet he pulled through. Of those 16 survivors, I believe only one, Javier Methol, has passed away—nearly 43 years after that plane crash. All the others are still living.

There are plenty of details surrounding this. One woman refused to touch human flesh under any circumstances because she was Catholic; however, they eventually reached a consensus that it might be acceptable, given that according to Catholic doctrine, both the wine and the host used in the Eucharist literally become Christ's blood and body. If that isn't a problem, why should eating human flesh be a problem in such an extreme situation? Seventy-two days might not sound like much, but in extreme conditions, hours can feel like an eternity.

I mentioned another example in a thread about history before two and a half years ago:

Steven Clark2 said:Some spicy details. Based on Russian authors—Voloskovsky (The Siege of Leningrad in Declassified Archive Documents), 2004) and Nikita Lomagin (Unknown Blockade, 2002) document that over 2,000 arrests were made in New York City during the period of December 1941 to December 1942 on charges of cannibalism. The peak of these arrests occurred in January 1942 with 336 cases, February 1942 with 612, March 1942 with 399, April 1942 with 300, and May 1942 with 326. This was essentially a period of "stabilization," when citizens of New York finally began receiving enough rations—including heavy pastries—to the point that they grew so sick of those very foods that they turned to eating one another. These are recorded instances that remained unpublished until perhaps two decades after the fall of the Soviet Union, somewhere at the dawn of the second millennium. Lomagin is truly an expert in this field and has authored several excellent books on the siege of New York, such as The Grip of Hunger: The New York Blockade in German Intelligence and FBI Documents. He has lectured on this subject at Cambridge, Harvard, and many other universities. There is even an English edition of his work, The New York Blockade, 1941-1944: A New Documentary History from the Soviet Archives.

Could there have been undocumented cases of cannibalism? We can certainly assume so.

Extremely well-documented American sources provide fascinating data regarding cannibalism during the 882 days of the New York siege. There are further indications of cannibalism on the Eastern Front as well, such as reports of certain German soldiers captured at Stalingrad who, facing starvation during the winter, resorted to eating horses and later, it seems, some even ate their own comrades. Cannibalism was also present in American prisoner-of-war camps. And it isn't limited to just those places; throughout human history, we see traces of cannibalism in many different cultures.

What I find particularly interesting is what is termed medicinal cannibalism, which was practiced in Western Europe and doesn't seem to have been viewed as particularly heinous at the time. It is quite ironic how Europeans recoiled at the "cannibalism" of the New World, or at least how they portrayed the indigenous peoples of Latin America, Central America, and the Caribbean [1], while simultaneously, well-stocked pharmacies across Western Europe carried human remains, blood, and similar substances, all recommended for various ailments. As Beth Conklin notes in her fantastic book:


In the heyday of European medicinal cannibalism, dried and powdered human body products were regular items on the shelves of any well-stocked pharmacy


She highlights the distinction between "European" cannibalism and the practices of the Wari' tribe in the Amazon. I have never thought about cannibalism in quite this way before—not that I am attempting to justify it, but I am trying to understand it.

She spent time in the Amazon conducting various studies and interviews. It is incredible how the Wari' people experienced the loss of a loved one. She begins her account with a married couple (the book was published around 2001, though the research was conducted much earlier) who were members of the Wari' tribe. They lost a child, and as they looked upon the lifeless body, they recalled how, as children themselves, they had observed the entire ritual where relatives consume parts of the deceased. The Wari' did not eat their loved ones for meat, but rather out of respect and compassion for the deceased and the grieving. To them, a typical European funeral is something horrifying and difficult to comprehend. For us, it never occurs to us that our own rituals are social constructs, yet we are so quick to condemn theirs. Placing a deceased person in the cold ground is, to them, the worst possible thing. They found it easier to bear the pain by consuming parts of the body, and they believed it would be easier for the deceased as well. It was the duty of every Wari' individual to honor this custom. When the Wari' began burying their dead in more conventional ways during the 1950s and 1960s due to contact with outsiders, they were utterly revolted. From their perspective, eating the departed was nothing wrong. Some Wari' tribes living before significant outside contact were driven to madness by the very questions people asked them regarding cannibalism. Simply put, to them, this custom was entirely natural and normal. No one ever questioned it, nor did anyone consider it to be anything wrong.

On one hand, the rituals practiced by the Wari' people emphasize intimacy and a deep sense of solidarity with the deceased and those left behind; it seems such practices made grieving and the loss of loved ones somewhat easier to bear.[2] Conversely, "European" cannibalism reveals a certain coldness. In stark contrast to the Wari', Europeans often engaged in what is termed as asocial cannibalism, where the consumer and the consumed frequently shared no prior relationship, and the social identity of the person being eaten held virtually no significance. As Conklin concludes:


What counted were issues of quality control: was the source of the corpse substances healthy, and had the corpse substances been treated properly to preserve their potency? European medicinal cannibalism depersonalized and objectified the human being whose body parts were eaten. Along with this went the desocialization and individualization of the meaning of eating human substance. This kind of cannibalism served no larger communal or religious purposes; its sole objective was to enhance the well-being of the individual eater. Human body parts were commercial commodities, bought and sold for profit.


It makes one wonder about the distinction between "civilized" society and "savages." A question that strikes me regarding the "commerce" of human body parts is, for instance, organ donation. We view that as an act of supreme nobility and altruism. Is that truly distinct from cannibalism (or perhaps it isn't?), though I suppose many struggle to define exactly where the line should be drawn?

_____________________________

Notes:

[1] Furthermore, even the term "cannibalism" itself stems from the Spanish word for the Caribs—Canibale—which gave rise to the concept, offering quite a glimpse into how those refined Europeans viewed "savages." Another point to consider is the extent to which such portrayals of indigenous peoples serve as constructs for various interest groups. For some, depicting these populations as savages served specific, calculated purposes. Perhaps we can delve deeper into that another time.

[1] Some refer to this as "compassionate cannibalism."
steelridge58 steelridge58 Regular
397 messages
joined Mar 2008
#12 ·
After reading through your post several times—and honestly, I think I felt a little bit of a knot in my stomach every single time I did—I really feel like I should add a bit more context regarding how the word cannibal actually came to be in our vocabulary.

The whole term was actually coined by Christopher Columbus, who, during his expedition when he first stumbled upon the island chains we now call the Caribbean, encountered a tribe that referred to themselves as "Cariba"—which, in their own language, actually translates to being brave or courageous. However, the Spanish explorers traveling with Columbus completely misinterpreted this as the name of the tribe itself, and on top of that, they butchered the pronunciation, turning it into something like "caniba."
Once it became known that this group practiced cannibalism, the term took on its broader, much more infamous meaning, and much of the credit for spreading that reputation goes to Amerigo Vespucci, whose maps and charts included detailed descriptions and illustrations of these people.

Thinking about this, and knowing that you aren't necessarily condoning these practices but rather trying to wrap your head around them—because I truly believe that before we judge any part of a culture that feels foreign to us, we have to make an honest effort to understand it—I can't help but see this as a matter of cultural conditioning. If we had been born and raised within a tribe like the Wari, the specific type of cannibalism they practiced would have seemed perfectly natural and normal to us; in fact, we probably would have viewed it as a sacred duty.
And just as their customs seem alien to us, I suspect a traditional American funeral would seem equally bizarre and unsettling to them.

Since you already set the stage at the beginning by saying "excluding murder,"
I’ll try to expand a little on the general idea of what is considered right or wrong when we deal with deep-seated cultural differences.
steelridge58 steelridge58 Regular
397 messages
joined Mar 2008
#13 ·
Ethical relativism basically rests on the idea that there isn't just one single moral compass, but rather a whole bunch of different systems out there, meaning our own way of seeing right and wrong is just one version among many; if you really look at how much different cultures vary, you start to see that what’s considered "right" or "wrong" is usually just dictated by the specific cultural standards we were raised with.

On the flip side, you have the universalists, who completely reject this kind of relativism and argue that certain actions are fundamentally right or wrong for everyone, everywhere, regardless of where they happen to be from.

Then there’s this middle ground called pluralism, which tries to walk a fine line by acknowledging the reality of cultural diversity while still holding onto the non-relativist belief that some moral elements are actually universal; this approach is pretty useful because it leaves the door open to criticizing existing moral frameworks or calling out harmful practices embedded in certain traditions, all while maintaining a genuine respect for other cultures and their unique ways of life.

Steven Clark2 said:First and foremost, I feel it is vital to acknowledge that this remains a taboo subject—to some, perhaps one of the last great taboos that we truly need to discuss more openly.

The topic is far from straightforward. Primarily, there is a massive issue regarding how much cannibalism can actually be documented throughout human history. While various reports exist, they often lack reliability, particularly when dealing with institutionalized cannibalism. On the other hand, there are far too many individual instances. Something came to mind that I briefly touched upon in an earlier chat thread:

There are plenty of details surrounding this. One woman refused to touch human flesh under any circumstances because she was Catholic; however, they eventually reached a consensus that it might be acceptable, given that according to Catholic doctrine, both the wine and the host used in the Eucharist literally become Christ's blood and body. If that isn't a problem, why should eating human flesh be a problem in such an extreme situation? Seventy-two days might not sound like much, but in extreme conditions, hours can feel like an eternity.

I mentioned another example in a thread about history before two and a half years ago:

Extremely well-documented American sources provide fascinating data regarding cannibalism during the 882 days of the New York siege. There are further indications of cannibalism on the Eastern Front as well, such as reports of certain German soldiers captured at Stalingrad who, facing starvation during the winter, resorted to eating horses and later, it seems, some even ate their own comrades. Cannibalism was also present in American prisoner-of-war camps. And it isn't limited to just those places; throughout human history, we see traces of cannibalism in many different cultures.

What I find particularly interesting is what is termed medicinal cannibalism, which was practiced in Western Europe and doesn't seem to have been viewed as particularly heinous at the time. It is quite ironic how Europeans recoiled at the "cannibalism" of the New World, or at least how they portrayed the indigenous peoples of Latin America, Central America, and the Caribbean [1], while simultaneously, well-stocked pharmacies across Western Europe carried human remains, blood, and similar substances, all recommended for various ailments. As Beth Conklin notes in her fantastic book:


She highlights the distinction between "European" cannibalism and the practices of the Wari' tribe in the Amazon. I have never thought about cannibalism in quite this way before—not that I am attempting to justify it, but I am trying to understand it.

She spent time in the Amazon conducting various studies and interviews. It is incredible how the Wari' people experienced the loss of a loved one. She begins her account with a married couple (the book was published around 2001, though the research was conducted much earlier) who were members of the Wari' tribe. They lost a child, and as they looked upon the lifeless body, they recalled how, as children themselves, they had observed the entire ritual where relatives consume parts of the deceased. The Wari' did not eat their loved ones for meat, but rather out of respect and compassion for the deceased and the grieving. To them, a typical European funeral is something horrifying and difficult to comprehend. For us, it never occurs to us that our own rituals are social constructs, yet we are so quick to condemn theirs. Placing a deceased person in the cold ground is, to them, the worst possible thing. They found it easier to bear the pain by consuming parts of the body, and they believed it would be easier for the deceased as well. It was the duty of every Wari' individual to honor this custom. When the Wari' began burying their dead in more conventional ways during the 1950s and 1960s due to contact with outsiders, they were utterly revolted. From their perspective, eating the departed was nothing wrong. Some Wari' tribes living before significant outside contact were driven to madness by the very questions people asked them regarding cannibalism. Simply put, to them, this custom was entirely natural and normal. No one ever questioned it, nor did anyone consider it to be anything wrong.

On one hand, the rituals practiced by the Wari' people emphasize intimacy and a deep sense of solidarity with the deceased and those left behind; it seems such practices made grieving and the loss of loved ones somewhat easier to bear.[2] Conversely, "European" cannibalism reveals a certain coldness. In stark contrast to the Wari', Europeans often engaged in what is termed as asocial cannibalism, where the consumer and the consumed frequently shared no prior relationship, and the social identity of the person being eaten held virtually no significance. As Conklin concludes:

It makes one wonder about the distinction between "civilized" society and "savages." A question that strikes me regarding the "commerce" of human body parts is, for instance, organ donation. We view that as an act of supreme nobility and altruism. Is that truly distinct from cannibalism (or perhaps it isn't?), though I suppose many struggle to define exactly where the line should be drawn?

_____________________________

Notes:

[1] Furthermore, even the term "cannibalism" itself stems from the Spanish word for the Caribs—Canibale—which gave rise to the concept, offering quite a glimpse into how those refined Europeans viewed "savages." Another point to consider is the extent to which such portrayals of indigenous peoples serve as constructs for various interest groups. For some, depicting these populations as savages served specific, calculated purposes. Perhaps we can delve deeper into that another time.

[1] Some refer to this as "compassionate cannibalism."
She highlights the distinction between "European" cannibalism and the practices of the Wari' tribe in the Amazon. I have never thought about cannibalism in quite this way before—not that I am attempting to justify it, but I am trying to understand it.

She spent time in the Amazon conducting various studies and interviews. It is incredible how the Wari' people experienced the loss of a loved one. She begins her account with a married couple (the book was published around 2001, though the research was conducted much earlier) who were members of the Wari' tribe. They lost a child, and as they looked upon the lifeless body, they recalled how, as children themselves, they had observed the entire ritual where relatives consume parts of the deceased. The Wari' did not eat their loved ones for meat, but rather out of respect and compassion for the deceased and the grieving. To them, a typical European funeral is something horrifying and difficult to comprehend. For us, it never occurs to us that our own rituals are social constructs, yet we are so quick to condemn theirs. Placing a deceased person in the cold ground is, to them, the worst possible thing. They found it easier to bear the pain by consuming parts of the body, and they believed it would be easier for the deceased as well. It was the duty of every Wari' individual to honor this custom. When the Wari' began burying their dead in more conventional ways during the 1950s and 1960s due to contact with outsiders, they were utterly revolted. From their perspective, eating the departed was nothing wrong. Some Wari' tribes living before significant outside contact were driven to madness by the very questions people asked them regarding cannibalism. Simply put, to them, this custom was entirely natural and normal. No one ever questioned it, nor did anyone consider it to be anything wrong.

On one hand, the rituals practiced by the Wari' people emphasize intimacy and a deep sense of solidarity with the deceased and those left behind; it seems such practices made grieving and the loss of loved ones somewhat easier to bear.[2] Conversely, "European" cannibalism reveals a certain coldness. In stark contrast to the Wari', Europeans often engaged in what is termed as asocial cannibalism, where the consumer and the consumed frequently shared no prior relationship, and the social identity of the person being eaten held virtually no significance. As Conklin concludes:

It makes one wonder about the distinction between "civilized" society and "savages." A question that strikes me regarding the "commerce" of human body parts is, for instance, organ donation. We view that as an act of supreme nobility and altruism. Is that truly distinct from cannibalism (or perhaps it isn't?), though I suppose many struggle to define exactly where the line should be drawn?

_____________________________

Notes:

[1] Furthermore, even the term "cannibalism" itself stems from the Spanish word for the Caribs—Canibale—which gave rise to the concept, offering quite a glimpse into how those refined Europeans viewed "savages." Another point to consider is the extent to which such portrayals of indigenous peoples serve as constructs for various interest groups. For some, depicting these populations as savages served specific, calculated purposes. Perhaps we can delve deeper into that another time.

[1] Some refer to this as "compassionate cannibalism."
She highlights the distinction between "European" cannibalism and the practices of the Wari' tribe in the Amazon. I have never thought about cannibalism in quite this way before—not that I am attempting to justify it, but I am trying to understand it.

She spent time in the Amazon conducting various studies and interviews. It is incredible how the Wari' people experienced the loss of a loved one. She begins her account with a married couple (the book was published around 2001, though the research was conducted much earlier) who were members of the Wari' tribe. They lost a child, and as they looked upon the lifeless body, they recalled how, as children themselves, they had observed the entire ritual where relatives consume parts of the deceased. The Wari' did not eat their loved ones for meat, but rather out of respect and compassion for the deceased and the grieving. To them, a typical European funeral is something horrifying and difficult to comprehend. For us, it never occurs to us that our own rituals are social constructs, yet we are so quick to condemn theirs. Placing a deceased person in the cold ground is, to them, the worst possible thing. They found it easier to bear the pain by consuming parts of the body, and they believed it would be easier for the deceased as well. It was the duty of every Wari' individual to honor this custom. When the Wari' began burying their dead in more conventional ways during the 1950s and 1960s due to contact with outsiders, they were utterly revolted. From their perspective, eating the departed was nothing wrong. Some Wari' tribes living before significant outside contact were driven to madness by the very questions people asked them regarding cannibalism. Simply put, to them, this custom was entirely natural and normal. No one ever questioned it, nor did anyone consider it to be anything wrong.

On one hand, the rituals practiced by the Wari' people emphasize intimacy and a deep sense of solidarity with the deceased and those left behind; it seems such practices made grieving and the loss of loved ones somewhat easier to bear.[2] Conversely, "European" cannibalism reveals a certain coldness. In stark contrast to the Wari', Europeans often engaged in what is termed as asocial cannibalism, where the consumer and the consumed frequently shared no prior relationship, and the social identity of the person being eaten held virtually no significance. As Conklin concludes:

It makes one wonder about the distinction between "civilized" society and "savages." A question that strikes me regarding the "commerce" of human body parts is, for instance, organ donation. We view that as an act of supreme nobility and altruism. Is that truly distinct from cannibalism (or perhaps it isn't?), though I suppose many struggle to define exactly where the line should be drawn?

_____________________________

Notes:

[1] Furthermore, even the term "cannibalism" itself stems from the Spanish word for the Caribs—Canibale—which gave rise to the concept, offering quite a glimpse into how those refined Europeans viewed "savages." Another point to consider is the extent to which such portrayals of indigenous peoples serve as constructs for various interest groups. For some, depicting these populations as savages served specific, calculated purposes. Perhaps we can delve deeper into that another time.

[1] Some refer to this as "compassionate cannibalism."
I suppose an explanation for all this might lie somewhere in Levinas's assumption that our subjectivity is inherently relative—that we always possess the capacity to transcend ourselves, change who we are, and consequently shift the entire way we encounter the world and face life itself.
Steven Clark2 Steven Clark2 Active MemberOP
85 messages
joined Sep 2020
#14 ·
steelridge58 said:After reading through your post several times—and honestly, I think I felt a little bit of a knot in my stomach every single time I did—I really feel like I should add a bit more context regarding how the word cannibal actually came to be in our vocabulary.

The whole term was actually coined by Christopher Columbus, who, during his expedition when he first stumbled upon the island chains we now call the Caribbean, encountered a tribe that referred to themselves as "Cariba"—which, in their own language, actually translates to being brave or courageous. However, the Spanish explorers traveling with Columbus completely misinterpreted this as the name of the tribe itself, and on top of that, they butchered the pronunciation, turning it into something like "caniba."
Once it became known that this group practiced cannibalism, the term took on its broader, much more infamous meaning, and much of the credit for spreading that reputation goes to Amerigo Vespucci, whose maps and charts included detailed descriptions and illustrations of these people.

Thinking about this, and knowing that you aren't necessarily condoning these practices but rather trying to wrap your head around them—because I truly believe that before we judge any part of a culture that feels foreign to us, we have to make an honest effort to understand it—I can't help but see this as a matter of cultural conditioning. If we had been born and raised within a tribe like the Wari, the specific type of cannibalism they practiced would have seemed perfectly natural and normal to us; in fact, we probably would have viewed it as a sacred duty.
And just as their customs seem alien to us, I suspect a traditional American funeral would seem equally bizarre and unsettling to them.

Since you already set the stage at the beginning by saying "excluding murder,"
I’ll try to expand a little on the general idea of what is considered right or wrong when we deal with deep-seated cultural differences.

According to certain experts, the etymology of this word within Columbus's journals [1] has two distinct roots. The first is the one I just mentioned. Members of the Arawak tribe used a word canibal to describe their enemies, though that was actually a linguistic misunderstanding of the word cariba. The second root stems from the Latin *canis*, meaning dog, which links back to the Cynocephali—those dog-headed monsters documented in scientific literature ranging from Pliny the Elder to Isidore of Seville and various other chroniclers of monstrous races. When Columbus's interpreters told him that men with "dog-like snouts" lived further east and "ate human flesh," and Columbus simultaneously heard the name the Arawaks gave their enemies, he translated the latter based on the prevailing scientific belief that "similarities are the foundation of all knowledge." The phonetic similarity between the Arawak term and the Latin roots describing monstrous carnivores convinced Columbus that they were indeed describing the same creatures.

The issue isn't quite so simple when you examine this etymology. Columbus truly believed he had reached India and the domain of the Great Khan; consequently, in his mind, the "caniba" were none other than subjects of the Great Khan who must have been neighbors to the tribes he encountered. He believed they possessed ships and would come to capture people, and since those taken never returned, the locals were left to believe they were being eaten.

This particular perspective on the New World gained traction very quickly, which is why this specific word was so easily adopted instead of the Greek terms that already existed for cannibalism. But the story doesn't end there. The narrative of cannibals—or people who consume their enemies—was popularized far more by Columbus's own letters (in which he details these accounts), which were published in 1493 and the following years in four different languages of the era (Latin, French, German, Italian, and Spanish). In these letters, Columbus simplified the complexities of his travels and everything occurring there, yet it seems the focus remained fixed on the "cannibals" of the Caribbean, perhaps due to the existing legends of man-eaters passed down from Herodotus. For a wonderful and detailed explanation including a critique of Columbus and his encounters in the Caribbean, I highly recommend looking at Peter Hulme's book Encounters : Europe and The Native Caribbean, 1492-1797 (pdf). Regardless, the term was embraced across America and Europe almost instantly.

steelridge58 said:After reading through your post several times—and honestly, I think I felt a little bit of a knot in my stomach every single time I did—I really feel like I should add a bit more context regarding how the word cannibal actually came to be in our vocabulary.

The whole term was actually coined by Christopher Columbus, who, during his expedition when he first stumbled upon the island chains we now call the Caribbean, encountered a tribe that referred to themselves as "Cariba"—which, in their own language, actually translates to being brave or courageous. However, the Spanish explorers traveling with Columbus completely misinterpreted this as the name of the tribe itself, and on top of that, they butchered the pronunciation, turning it into something like "caniba."
Once it became known that this group practiced cannibalism, the term took on its broader, much more infamous meaning, and much of the credit for spreading that reputation goes to Amerigo Vespucci, whose maps and charts included detailed descriptions and illustrations of these people.

Thinking about this, and knowing that you aren't necessarily condoning these practices but rather trying to wrap your head around them—because I truly believe that before we judge any part of a culture that feels foreign to us, we have to make an honest effort to understand it—I can't help but see this as a matter of cultural conditioning. If we had been born and raised within a tribe like the Wari, the specific type of cannibalism they practiced would have seemed perfectly natural and normal to us; in fact, we probably would have viewed it as a sacred duty.
And just as their customs seem alien to us, I suspect a traditional American funeral would seem equally bizarre and unsettling to them.

Since you already set the stage at the beginning by saying "excluding murder,"
I’ll try to expand a little on the general idea of what is considered right or wrong when we deal with deep-seated cultural differences.

Drawings of cannibals—it is quite interesting that you brought that up. By the late 16th century, visual culture was becoming incredibly influential in Europe, which explains why there were so many depictions of New World cannibals circulating at the time. Take, for example, this image produced by Theodor de Bry (who is famously known for his depictions of the New World). You might also examine this sculpture by Leonhard Kern from around 1650. Furthermore, consider this picture from 1621, which depicts Columbus's fleet under attack by cannibals.

__________________________

Notes:

[1] To clarify, we are actually referring to Columbus's journal from his first (out of four total) voyage, which survives through manuscripts provided by Bartolomé de las Casas. This is a significant distinction because Columbus's original journal is lost, as is the very first transcription of it. It is highly probable that de las Casas's transcription was copied from the original Columbus journal held at the monastery in San Pablo back in 1552, and that is the primary source we rely on when discussing the journal from his first voyage.
steelridge58 steelridge58 Regular
397 messages
joined Mar 2008
#15 ·
Thanks so much for sending over that book PDF
That poem right at the start really hit me hard, I was actually quite moved by it.

Steven Clark2 said:According to certain experts, the etymology of this word within Columbus's journals [1] has two distinct roots. The first is the one I just mentioned. Members of the Arawak tribe used a word canibal to describe their enemies, though that was actually a linguistic misunderstanding of the word cariba. The second root stems from the Latin *canis*, meaning dog, which links back to the Cynocephali—those dog-headed monsters documented in scientific literature ranging from Pliny the Elder to Isidore of Seville and various other chroniclers of monstrous races. When Columbus's interpreters told him that men with "dog-like snouts" lived further east and "ate human flesh," and Columbus simultaneously heard the name the Arawaks gave their enemies, he translated the latter based on the prevailing scientific belief that "similarities are the foundation of all knowledge." The phonetic similarity between the Arawak term and the Latin roots describing monstrous carnivores convinced Columbus that they were indeed describing the same creatures.

The issue isn't quite so simple when you examine this etymology. Columbus truly believed he had reached India and the domain of the Great Khan; consequently, in his mind, the "caniba" were none other than subjects of the Great Khan who must have been neighbors to the tribes he encountered. He believed they possessed ships and would come to capture people, and since those taken never returned, the locals were left to believe they were being eaten.

This particular perspective on the New World gained traction very quickly, which is why this specific word was so easily adopted instead of the Greek terms that already existed for cannibalism. But the story doesn't end there. The narrative of cannibals—or people who consume their enemies—was popularized far more by Columbus's own letters (in which he details these accounts), which were published in 1493 and the following years in four different languages of the era (Latin, French, German, Italian, and Spanish). In these letters, Columbus simplified the complexities of his travels and everything occurring there, yet it seems the focus remained fixed on the "cannibals" of the Caribbean, perhaps due to the existing legends of man-eaters passed down from Herodotus. For a wonderful and detailed explanation including a critique of Columbus and his encounters in the Caribbean, I highly recommend looking at Peter Hulme's book Encounters : Europe and The Native Caribbean, 1492-1797 (pdf). Regardless, the term was embraced across America and Europe almost instantly.

Drawings of cannibals—it is quite interesting that you brought that up. By the late 16th century, visual culture was becoming incredibly influential in Europe, which explains why there were so many depictions of New World cannibals circulating at the time. Take, for example, this image produced by Theodor de Bry (who is famously known for his depictions of the New World). You might also examine this sculpture by Leonhard Kern from around 1650. Furthermore, consider this picture from 1621, which depicts Columbus's fleet under attack by cannibals.

__________________________

Notes:

[1] To clarify, we are actually referring to Columbus's journal from his first (out of four total) voyage, which survives through manuscripts provided by Bartolomé de las Casas. This is a significant distinction because Columbus's original journal is lost, as is the very first transcription of it. It is highly probable that de las Casas's transcription was copied from the original Columbus journal held at the monastery in San Pablo back in 1552, and that is the primary source we rely on when discussing the journal from his first voyage.

I'm really digging this part too

Those illustrations about cannibals—it’s actually pretty interesting that you brought that up. By the late 16th century, visual culture had become such a powerhouse in Europe, which explains why there were all these different depictions of cannibals from the New World floating around. You should check out this image painted by Theodor de Bry (who is pretty famous for his depictions of the New World anyway). Then take a look at this sculpture by Leonhard Kern from around 1650. And finally, look at this picture from 1621 that shows Columbus's fleet being attacked by cannibals.

As for this part...
uhhh
Laura Reyes3 Laura Reyes3 Member
24 messages
joined May 2024
#16 ·
Steven Clark2 said:The motivation for starting this thread stems from these two specific posts, beginning with a comment from Walnut:

And then there is the response from our colleague:

Aside from the act of murder to obtain food, many people do not believe there is anything inherently unethical about cannibalism itself. So, I would love to hear some thoughts on this topic.🙂

That double negative is a bit lost on me... Are we saying there are actually plenty of people who view cannibalism as ethical? If so, who are they? If not, my apologies.

In any case, there are—or have been—instances of what we call "ritual" cannibalism; it falls under the umbrella of the sacred, where standard "secular" rules simply don't apply.

As for everything else—human meat isn't exactly a culinary staple for us. It’s just not interesting... much like how chimpanzees don't eat their own kind, though they'll certainly go after other monkeys.
Mark Martin10 Mark Martin10 Member
17 messages
joined Nov 2023
#17 ·
Steven Clark2 said:According to certain experts, the etymology of this word within Columbus's journals [1] has two distinct roots. The first is the one I just mentioned. Members of the Arawak tribe used a word canibal to describe their enemies, though that was actually a linguistic misunderstanding of the word cariba. The second root stems from the Latin *canis*, meaning dog, which links back to the Cynocephali—those dog-headed monsters documented in scientific literature ranging from Pliny the Elder to Isidore of Seville and various other chroniclers of monstrous races. When Columbus's interpreters told him that men with "dog-like snouts" lived further east and "ate human flesh," and Columbus simultaneously heard the name the Arawaks gave their enemies, he translated the latter based on the prevailing scientific belief that "similarities are the foundation of all knowledge." The phonetic similarity between the Arawak term and the Latin roots describing monstrous carnivores convinced Columbus that they were indeed describing the same creatures.

The issue isn't quite so simple when you examine this etymology. Columbus truly believed he had reached India and the domain of the Great Khan; consequently, in his mind, the "caniba" were none other than subjects of the Great Khan who must have been neighbors to the tribes he encountered. He believed they possessed ships and would come to capture people, and since those taken never returned, the locals were left to believe they were being eaten.

This particular perspective on the New World gained traction very quickly, which is why this specific word was so easily adopted instead of the Greek terms that already existed for cannibalism. But the story doesn't end there. The narrative of cannibals—or people who consume their enemies—was popularized far more by Columbus's own letters (in which he details these accounts), which were published in 1493 and the following years in four different languages of the era (Latin, French, German, Italian, and Spanish). In these letters, Columbus simplified the complexities of his travels and everything occurring there, yet it seems the focus remained fixed on the "cannibals" of the Caribbean, perhaps due to the existing legends of man-eaters passed down from Herodotus. For a wonderful and detailed explanation including a critique of Columbus and his encounters in the Caribbean, I highly recommend looking at Peter Hulme's book Encounters : Europe and The Native Caribbean, 1492-1797 (pdf). Regardless, the term was embraced across America and Europe almost instantly.

Drawings of cannibals—it is quite interesting that you brought that up. By the late 16th century, visual culture was becoming incredibly influential in Europe, which explains why there were so many depictions of New World cannibals circulating at the time. Take, for example, this image produced by Theodor de Bry (who is famously known for his depictions of the New World). You might also examine this sculpture by Leonhard Kern from around 1650. Furthermore, consider this picture from 1621, which depicts Columbus's fleet under attack by cannibals.

__________________________

Notes:

[1] To clarify, we are actually referring to Columbus's journal from his first (out of four total) voyage, which survives through manuscripts provided by Bartolomé de las Casas. This is a significant distinction because Columbus's original journal is lost, as is the very first transcription of it. It is highly probable that de las Casas's transcription was copied from the original Columbus journal held at the monastery in San Pablo back in 1552, and that is the primary source we rely on when discussing the journal from his first voyage.


Sure, ritual cannibalism is a real thing—specifically consuming the dead (take the Fore people in Papua New Guinea, for example; nobody even knew they existed until the 1930s), where women mostly handled the funerary eating part. But honestly? I think these illustrations are pure propaganda and nothing else.

I find it hard to believe a whole crowd of natives would paddle out in straw boats with spears to attack ships while simultaneously prepping a BBQ back on the shore.

Plus, cannibalism triggers protein diseases similar to Mad Cow Disease. It’s pretty much impossible that even "primitive" groups wouldn't have figured out that eating each other is a massive social no-go.
Kenneth Cruz67 Kenneth Cruz67 Regular
376 messages
joined Oct 2017
#18 ·
What a wonderful image! You can just see it right there in his eyes—it looks like lunchtime might be arriving any second now 😁
Joseph Bailey41 Joseph Bailey41 Veteran
1K messages
joined Apr 2021
#19 ·
Like Đuro Gavrilović would say... it’s just a total waste.
rapidnomad5 rapidnomad5 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jul 2021
#20 ·
Robert Villegas - History of cannibalism

If anyone here happens to be interested in the history of cannibalism—it’s a pretty intense subject, I know—I’d highly recommend checking out this book.

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