Ethical dilemma

feralranger said:I am at a loss, as the individual who initiated this discussion has failed to provide adequate context. For instance, if the man who claims he doesn't want children is actually just a college student using her for the same reasons some men pay for sex workers—acting as the ultimate bottom-feeder by spinning a tale of future marriage and fatherhood just to get what he wants, while privately telling his male friends that he has no intention of settling down and views her as mere "disposable goods"...

One must wonder, what if he had told the husband of the woman who started this thread that he knew the pipes in their apartment building were contaminated, yet chose to withhold that information from his girlfriend, allowing her to drink toxic water... where exactly does the boundary of "minding one's own business" lie?

From the perspective of merely looking out for one's own interests, perhaps it is best to remain uninvolved, as any intervention will certainly not be appreciated by the couple, and in a tangled web of circumstances, that poor woman might find herself even more vulnerable...

This topic, in my estimation, does not fall under the umbrella of psychology, but rather belongs to the realm of morality, ethics, and the philosophy of human conduct...

The original poster admitted she knows her partner isn't interested in marriage or kids. It’s quite common for women to fall into the trap of self-delusion, hoping their partner will eventually change his mind. That is why I pointed out that we don't actually know the nuances of their relationship—we don't know what was explicitly said, how things were interpreted, or who is currently living in a fantasy. Even now, she is aware of the biological hurdles and the reality of being with someone who doesn't share her vision for the future, yet she still clings to hope. I am not convinced she will find much value in the blunt truths the OP might offer, just as no one wants to hear that their partner is speaking ill of them behind their back.

You might assume she’ll eventually realize she deserves better and walk away once she sees his true colors, but that isn't always how it works. People often remain in toxic relationships despite everything they endure. In fact, their biggest adversaries are frequently the very people trying to protect them with well-meaning advice.

mistybison said:The original poster admitted she knows her partner isn't interested in marriage or kids. It’s quite common for women to fall into the trap of self-delusion, hoping their partner will eventually change his mind. That is why I pointed out that we don't actually know the nuances of their relationship—we don't know what was explicitly said, how things were interpreted, or who is currently living in a fantasy. Even now, she is aware of the biological hurdles and the reality of being with someone who doesn't share her vision for the future, yet she still clings to hope. I am not convinced she will find much value in the blunt truths the OP might offer, just as no one wants to hear that their partner is speaking ill of them behind their back.

You might assume she’ll eventually realize she deserves better and walk away once she sees his true colors, but that isn't always how it works. People often remain in toxic relationships despite everything they endure. In fact, their biggest adversaries are frequently the very people trying to protect them with well-meaning advice.

She didn't just imply it; those were her exact words: "I know he isn't ready for marriage or kids, and I am willing to wait another two or three years."

It remains somewhat ambiguous what the actual situation entails—though, frankly, nothing being said here carries much weight, including your own commentary—but perhaps he is simply using her while she finishes her degree (or some other reason), feeding her the line that he's "just not ready yet" to keep her hooked, whereas he has absolutely no incentive to lie to a friend and reveal his true hand: that he views her as something merely temporary and disposable...

I fail to see any motive for him to deceive a friend, yet imagining a motive for lying to a girlfriend is quite effortless; for instance, one might seek the same results one would get from a high-end escort, just by utilizing charming, deceptive rhetoric and strategic silence. It’s a pattern we have seen played out countless times...

feralranger said:She didn't just imply it; those were her exact words: "I know he isn't ready for marriage or kids, and I am willing to wait another two or three years."

It remains somewhat ambiguous what the actual situation entails—though, frankly, nothing being said here carries much weight, including your own commentary—but perhaps he is simply using her while she finishes her degree (or some other reason), feeding her the line that he's "just not ready yet" to keep her hooked, whereas he has absolutely no incentive to lie to a friend and reveal his true hand: that he views her as something merely temporary and disposable...

I fail to see any motive for him to deceive a friend, yet imagining a motive for lying to a girlfriend is quite effortless; for instance, one might seek the same results one would get from a high-end escort, just by utilizing charming, deceptive rhetoric and strategic silence. It’s a pattern we have seen played out countless times...

Topics like this can be tricky because everyone tends to get carried away with speculation.

I'm honestly not even sure what prompted me to chime in here. 😁

Aaron Anderson51 said:Here’s the deal: my husband has this buddy who’s been seeing the same girl for about three years now. They’re both in their early thirties, and they’ve already done the whole family introduction thing where everyone hangs out...
The thing is, she’s dealing with some heavy stuff—malignant ovarian tumors. She’s had surgeries and chemo multiple times, but the tumors just keep coming back every single time. Her doctors are basically telling her there’s only one way to actually get healthy: she needs to have both ovaries and her uterus removed.
But she’s digging her heels in because she wants kids, so she’s putting off the surgery to hold onto that chance. She knows he isn't ready for marriage or fatherhood either, so she's willing to wait another two or three years, even if it means wrecking her hormonal balance or, honestly, risking her life given what she's fighting...

So, here’s where the drama starts. My husband let it slip to me that her boyfriend actually has zero interest in having kids with her—not now, not ever. I totally lost it because, given everything she's going through, that feels incredibly selfish and just plain dishonest.
When I pressed him on why the guy is wasting both of their lives if there's no future there, he just shut down and wouldn't say another word...

I really want to know what you guys think. Am I just being dramatic over nothing, or am I right to be pissed? And should I tell her what he said?
What’s eating at me most is that I have no clue if they’ve even talked about this. I assume they have, but I can't help but wonder if he's giving her the straight truth or if he's just sugarcoating it, saying "not right now" when he really means "never."
Because if he's lying, she's living in this total fantasy land, throwing away her health and her time on someone who isn't going to give her what she needs... maybe even losing her last shot at being a mother in the process.

If she actually knew the truth, she’d have two real paths: 1. If she loves him enough to accept his stance, she could go ahead with the surgery and save her life. 2. Or, she could stop wasting her breath on him and find someone else who actually wants the same things she does.

Then there’s that other classic scenario... where he *has* told her everything, but she’s doing that thing women sometimes do where she thinks she can change his mind if she just waits long enough...

What would you do if you were in my shoes? Would you step in and talk to her, or just stay out of it and let them handle their own mess? Especially since if I do stick my nose in, it’s definitely going to cause a massive blowout in my own relationship too...

What kind of kids talk like that when facing a diagnosis like this? Show me a doctor who hasn't laid it out plain and simple. If this situation is real—and I have my doubts—there's really only one way to look at it: life comes first. Always. What is there to second-guess when you realize how much every single day matters in a case like this? She probably won't even listen to them, which means she'll just waste precious time before reality finally hits home. But the disease isn't going to wait around while they figure things out...

Aaron Anderson51 said:Here’s the deal: my husband has this buddy who’s been seeing the same girl for about three years now. They’re both in their early thirties, and they’ve already done the whole family introduction thing where everyone hangs out...
The thing is, she’s dealing with some heavy stuff—malignant ovarian tumors. She’s had surgeries and chemo multiple times, but the tumors just keep coming back every single time. Her doctors are basically telling her there’s only one way to actually get healthy: she needs to have both ovaries and her uterus removed.
But she’s digging her heels in because she wants kids, so she’s putting off the surgery to hold onto that chance. She knows he isn't ready for marriage or fatherhood either, so she's willing to wait another two or three years, even if it means wrecking her hormonal balance or, honestly, risking her life given what she's fighting...

So, here’s where the drama starts. My husband let it slip to me that her boyfriend actually has zero interest in having kids with her—not now, not ever. I totally lost it because, given everything she's going through, that feels incredibly selfish and just plain dishonest.
When I pressed him on why the guy is wasting both of their lives if there's no future there, he just shut down and wouldn't say another word...

I really want to know what you guys think. Am I just being dramatic over nothing, or am I right to be pissed? And should I tell her what he said?
What’s eating at me most is that I have no clue if they’ve even talked about this. I assume they have, but I can't help but wonder if he's giving her the straight truth or if he's just sugarcoating it, saying "not right now" when he really means "never."
Because if he's lying, she's living in this total fantasy land, throwing away her health and her time on someone who isn't going to give her what she needs... maybe even losing her last shot at being a mother in the process.

If she actually knew the truth, she’d have two real paths: 1. If she loves him enough to accept his stance, she could go ahead with the surgery and save her life. 2. Or, she could stop wasting her breath on him and find someone else who actually wants the same things she does.

Then there’s that other classic scenario... where he *has* told her everything, but she’s doing that thing women sometimes do where she thinks she can change his mind if she just waits long enough...

What would you do if you were in my shoes? Would you step in and talk to her, or just stay out of it and let them handle their own mess? Especially since if I do stick my nose in, it’s definitely going to cause a massive blowout in my own relationship too...

There’s also a third scenario: she gets that surgery ASAP, and then down the road when things settle, they adopt an orphan—of which there are plenty. Look, once you bring a child into the world, you're locked in for life; you can't just walk away from that responsibility. Maybe that friend of yours realizes that too—maybe he isn't just acting out of pure selfishness (assuming money or other obligations aren't driving the bus)—but even then, dealing with a potentially terminal illness is hardly a "favorable" situation.

Aaron Anderson51 said:Here’s the deal: my husband has this buddy who’s been seeing the same girl for about three years now. They’re both in their early thirties, and they’ve already done the whole family introduction thing where everyone hangs out...
The thing is, she’s dealing with some heavy stuff—malignant ovarian tumors. She’s had surgeries and chemo multiple times, but the tumors just keep coming back every single time. Her doctors are basically telling her there’s only one way to actually get healthy: she needs to have both ovaries and her uterus removed.
But she’s digging her heels in because she wants kids, so she’s putting off the surgery to hold onto that chance. She knows he isn't ready for marriage or fatherhood either, so she's willing to wait another two or three years, even if it means wrecking her hormonal balance or, honestly, risking her life given what she's fighting...

So, here’s where the drama starts. My husband let it slip to me that her boyfriend actually has zero interest in having kids with her—not now, not ever. I totally lost it because, given everything she's going through, that feels incredibly selfish and just plain dishonest.
When I pressed him on why the guy is wasting both of their lives if there's no future there, he just shut down and wouldn't say another word...

I really want to know what you guys think. Am I just being dramatic over nothing, or am I right to be pissed? And should I tell her what he said?
What’s eating at me most is that I have no clue if they’ve even talked about this. I assume they have, but I can't help but wonder if he's giving her the straight truth or if he's just sugarcoating it, saying "not right now" when he really means "never."
Because if he's lying, she's living in this total fantasy land, throwing away her health and her time on someone who isn't going to give her what she needs... maybe even losing her last shot at being a mother in the process.

If she actually knew the truth, she’d have two real paths: 1. If she loves him enough to accept his stance, she could go ahead with the surgery and save her life. 2. Or, she could stop wasting her breath on him and find someone else who actually wants the same things she does.

Then there’s that other classic scenario... where he *has* told her everything, but she’s doing that thing women sometimes do where she thinks she can change his mind if she just waits long enough...

What would you do if you were in my shoes? Would you step in and talk to her, or just stay out of it and let them handle their own mess? Especially since if I do stick my nose in, it’s definitely going to cause a massive blowout in my own relationship too...

It really comes down to whether you want to spend your life watching from the sidelines or actually getting in the game.
And honestly? It might be worth taking a hard look at your own relationship, too—asking yourself how much you actually care about being with someone who refuses to leave their comfort zone, especially when it comes to respecting your values and having your back.

At the end of the day, anyone can give advice, but finding the right way to say it is the hard part. Sometimes, staying quiet does less damage than speaking up and making things worse.
Did I say "sometimes"? I meant almost always.
Look, there’s no perfect answer here. The old saying is true: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Every single comment in this thread holds some weight depending on which angle you're looking from.
Just do whatever your conscience tells you to do.

Jessica Miller51 said:What kind of kids talk like that when facing a diagnosis like this? Show me a doctor who hasn't laid it out plain and simple. If this situation is real—and I have my doubts—there's really only one way to look at it: life comes first. Always. What is there to second-guess when you realize how much every single day matters in a case like this? She probably won't even listen to them, which means she'll just waste precious time before reality finally hits home. But the disease isn't going to wait around while they figure things out...

Well, I told her. I told my cousin, who was raising two kids all on her own. I told her to stop messing around because those girls only have her, and she needs to just get the surgery done—remove both breasts and the lymph nodes.

But she wouldn't shut up about it. Actually, she got furious with me. Seriously furious! (Because, apparently, what is a woman without her breasts? 🙄)

I ended up being terrified by how she reacted, so I didn't say anything to her daughters or her mother-in-law. I didn't want to go behind her back and cause drama. But now, I feel terrible about it. I regret not being more persistent.

Now, it’s been 7 or 8 years, and she’s still just sitting there in total denial.

People can be so incredibly conservative and stuck in their ways when it comes to cancer. Denial is just such a common thing. Based on that original post, it looks like she's stuck right in the middle of it.

Andrew Barrett4 said:Well, I told her. I told my cousin, who was raising two kids all on her own. I told her to stop messing around because those girls only have her, and she needs to just get the surgery done—remove both breasts and the lymph nodes.

But she wouldn't shut up about it. Actually, she got furious with me. Seriously furious! (Because, apparently, what is a woman without her breasts? 🙄)

I ended up being terrified by how she reacted, so I didn't say anything to her daughters or her mother-in-law. I didn't want to go behind her back and cause drama. But now, I feel terrible about it. I regret not being more persistent.

Now, it’s been 7 or 8 years, and she’s still just sitting there in total denial.

People can be so incredibly conservative and stuck in their ways when it comes to cancer. Denial is just such a common thing. Based on that original post, it looks like she's stuck right in the middle of it.

Good grief, that's awful. I'm so sorry you went through that. What made you suggest the surgery in the first place? Was there a family history or a specific diagnosis? Even if she’s mad, at least your conscience is clear. You tried to warn her. Don't beat yourself up; maybe you could actually save her life. It's just tragic when people have a chance to avoid the worst and they just ignore it...

What was my basis for telling her?
It was based on best practices and statistics from Nokia.

She was diagnosed with breast cancer and underwent a partial mastectomy to remove the tumor. She went through a few rounds of chemotherapy, too. On top of that, they were shelling out an insane amount of money for some "natural therapy"—these capsules from America—which just further exhausted her system already struggling with the chemo. She felt absolutely terrible. And honestly, that therapy was outrageously expensive, despite there being zero scientific evidence that it actually works.

She’s from the US, though she had lived in Chicago, where her late husband was from. Before then, I only ever saw her when she came back to visit the States. When I finally went to visit her, I was genuinely shocked by how poorly she looked. I asked her why she wasn't getting radiation therapy, and she told me the machine was broken(!) and the nearest one was in a Small town, so she was just waiting. That was my first time really being in the Midwest, so everything felt foreign and I didn't quite grasp how things functioned there. What could I even advise? I mean, it's a different place and things work differently, but the whole thing with the radiation equipment just didn't sit right with me. So, I told her she should focus on getting the breast and the lymph nodes under both armpits sorted out properly and look for radiation somewhere else. Just to get it over with. She needs to think about her kids.

She got angry at me, asking how that would look. It felt, quite literally, like I was pushing her toward the grave. I was stunned, frankly, and a bit repulsed. Why would I want to dwell on someone's misery when they don't even want to listen? 🤷

I also pointed out that spending $55 a month on those quack supplements was a disgrace—just a way to rob desperate people blind.

Her cousins weren't exactly kids; both were college students at the time. One was just starting and the other was finishing up. Even now, I don't quite get it. If she was the superstitious type, how did those two—educated university students—fall for the story about miracle capsules?? They ended up wasting both their money and their energy on something completely useless during such a difficult time. 🤷

Just imagine, $55 a month in their currency—I don't fully grasp the exchange rate, but I remember it was a massive amount for their budget (this was probably 7 or 8 years ago now). So, what did I do? I spontaneously gave them $1,100, just so they could spend it on whatever they needed. I didn't want them to end up in debt or facing hunger because of those stupid medicines. I gave it even though I didn't believe in any magic pills; I mean, what else could I have done? 🤷

How did it end?
She kept waiting for that radiation machine to be fixed and didn't take any further action because she simply REFUSED to look elsewhere(!). The repairs dragged on and on; the machine was out of commission for nearly a year. She didn't have the rest of the breast removed. She took round after round of those capsules, poor woman. Eventually, the cancer metastasized to the remaining breast, the lymph nodes, and elsewhere. It was a painful, inevitable end.

A few years later, when her daughter was traveling, we met up here in my country. While talking about her mother, I told her I was sorry she hadn't gone through with the full surgery. I suggested it might be wise for her and her sister to get tested for the gene. And if, God forbid, they ever find anything, she should just have everything removed and not fear it, since reconstructive surgery can fix everything. The priority is eliminating the risk.

For me, it was an honest, heavy conversation. I wasn't trying to dwell on the past; I was just using the moment to try and steer her away from something that I thought could cost her her life.
Her reaction was devastating. After everything.

This past May, I happened to run into my late aunt's mother-in-law while I was at an annual event and she was visiting the States. We talked for a long time. I confessed to her that whenever I think back, I feel guilty for not pressing her harder to go back for surgery. Her immediate response was: "I told her the exact same thing, but she wouldn't listen!"

And I just broke down crying because it felt like a weight had been lifted. It means she knew, too.

Just think about it... out of three whole generations of women, the most sensible one was probably my old grandmother who barely finished eighth grade.

Man, reading this gave me chills. It’s just heavy. I haven't been back to Washington, D.C. in decades—I live in the European Union now—so I don't know exactly what the ground reality is like there, though I hear from people here and there that things are pretty bleak. But imagine this: life-saving medical equipment being out of commission for an entire year... My heart just breaks for all those sick people over there. And honestly, I feel for you too. Having to deal with that isn't just some minor disagreement; we're talking about incredibly heavy stuff. I know people in America can be really superstitious, always pinning their hopes on herbal remedies. Fine, if it's a cold or the flu, whatever. But when you're dealing with terminal illnesses? Believing in that stuff is pure madness. The fact that you're seeing college-educated people fall for this is just devastating. It actually surprised me that your mother-in-law—even without all that formal schooling—realized those capsules were a total scam. I guess real-world wisdom beats a degree sometimes. You've been incredibly brave to keep speaking up and warning them, even after seeing where they stand. You deserve respect for that; most people just stay quiet to keep the peace. Don't beat yourself up for not pushing harder. You can't force anyone, trust me, I know. My younger brother refused to treat his high blood pressure. There were no magic words, no perfect explanations, no lectures, no pointing out examples—we tried everything under the sun. He just wouldn't do it. He claimed he wasn't even sick. Ten years ago, he passed away from a stroke, and I still cry about him today, wondering what we missed. I'm slowly realizing there was nothing we could have done because he was just so stubborn. He had a good life, a steady marriage, plenty of money, the whole world at his fingertips... but none of it mattered. That's why I'm telling you: don't carry this guilt. There are situations where you simply cannot force someone's hand, no matter how much you care. I'm just glad you talked to her mother and found at least one person who understands the reality of it.

Stay far away from that.

Stay out of this. It really isn't your business to be meddling in... A woman might just be telling herself these things because she harbors a deep desire to be a mother someday, and it’s simply too painful for her to admit—to herself, to you, or even to them—that she might never have that chance. Furthermore, bringing up the idea of a child and making such talk given the severity of her illness... it frankly shows a staggering lack of empathy and a failure to truly understand another living soul. Someone who is ill needs nothing but support and encouragement right now, without anyone forcing their predictions or long-term plans upon them. She needs to focus entirely on her health, and everything else is secondary at this moment...

No matter how you slice it, the responsibility of caring for a potential baby would fall squarely on her partner's shoulders, which gives him every right to be the one making the decisions. And another thing, surely her choice of partner wasn't purely accidental? Is her entire life's purpose merely to produce a child? Surely not. She isn't even healthy right now, let alone in a position to go looking for some new partner who would actually want to start a family with a woman whose very presence tomorrow is an uncertainty...

Have you even stopped to consider how much devastation her partner and that baby would face if, God forbid, she were gone, leaving them to carry the crushing guilt of knowing they took such a risk?

William Chavez5 said:Stay out of this. It really isn't your business to be meddling in... A woman might just be telling herself these things because she harbors a deep desire to be a mother someday, and it’s simply too painful for her to admit—to herself, to you, or even to them—that she might never have that chance. Furthermore, bringing up the idea of a child and making such talk given the severity of her illness... it frankly shows a staggering lack of empathy and a failure to truly understand another living soul. Someone who is ill needs nothing but support and encouragement right now, without anyone forcing their predictions or long-term plans upon them. She needs to focus entirely on her health, and everything else is secondary at this moment...

No matter how you slice it, the responsibility of caring for a potential baby would fall squarely on her partner's shoulders, which gives him every right to be the one making the decisions. And another thing, surely her choice of partner wasn't purely accidental? Is her entire life's purpose merely to produce a child? Surely not. She isn't even healthy right now, let alone in a position to go looking for some new partner who would actually want to start a family with a woman whose very presence tomorrow is an uncertainty...

Have you even stopped to consider how much devastation her partner and that baby would face if, God forbid, she were gone, leaving them to carry the crushing guilt of knowing they took such a risk?

I mean, I think we all pretty much understand how the male brain works when libido is driving the bus—it's basically "screw the consequences, just keep going while you can."

So, what exactly is so confusing about the Demonic Males hypothesis?

I get why you’re reacting this way—honestly, I’d be just as upset if I were in your shoes. But look, I’ve aged a bit since then, I've grown up, and I've learned one vital lesson: no matter how you frame it or what you say to her, you’re always going to be the villain in her story.

Given all that, I don't think I'd get involved anymore at my age. At the end of the day, if she’s choosing a man over her own LIFE... isn't that enough said? Don't you see the pathology in that? That guy didn't just appear out of thin air—she chose him specifically, not some other option...

If I were in that same position back then? There isn't an ovary in my body I wouldn't have had removed... regardless of who was standing on the other side of the table. And besides—there are plenty of neglected kids out there in the world, aren't there?

It’s not even about her wanting kids—it’s about her wanting to die and leave this world behind.