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Living standards in Europe 2018

Started by Joshua Price2 · · 👁 4 views · 20 replies

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Participants Joshua Price2Nicole Nguyen6velvetbadger172Mark Harris66Gerald Chavez7Henry Rivera7dustyfalcon3Keith Williams11Andrew Barrett4Charles Howard74velvetcrane47
Joshua Price2 Joshua Price2 NewcomerOP
3 messages
joined Jul 2018
#1 ·
Hey everyone,

I just got home from work and started looking through the latest report from the U.S. Census Bureau regarding living conditions across the European Union - 28, and honestly, a few things jumped out at me immediately.

There's this table on page 12 that breaks down the annual median disposable (net) income, adjusted for price baskets in each country back in 2016. Even if we account for the fact that converting everything to GDP to smooth out those price differences might skew the numbers slightly, the results are still pretty eye-opening.

According to these figures, the median income in America was only $1211 🤔. It’s hard to wrap my head around how low that is—based on today's average exchange rates, that works out to just about 491.9531 euros 🕺. While the data is from 2016, I find it hard to believe such a complex macroeconomic indicator would have shifted drastically in just a year and a half. What’s even more unsettling is that 50% of the population earns less than that amount.

For comparison, Canada sits at an incredible 1,027.25 euros for us. The Czech Republic is at 688.20 euros, and even Slovakia is higher at 579.25. Greece, which has always been a bit of a weak link in the Eurozone, is at 625😲.
We're just barely ahead of Poland at 473.96, while we comfortably beat out Romania at 194.83 and Bulgaria at 110. 🙂🤣 It actually surprised me that we're still edging out the Canadians at 378 euros, who seem to be busy buying up our banks, oil refineries, and taking over beach concessions and whatnot.

On the flip side, you have an absurd example like Switzerland, where the monthly net median is 3,383 euros. You can't really use the old argument that "everything is 80,000% more expensive there," because this is all adjusted for GDP, which literally means that someone with a median income in Switzerland can buy nearly seven times as many consumer goods as someone
in America. 😵😵 They aren't even matched by the Norwegians, who sit at 3,078.

Our favorite, Germany, holds steady at 1,772.91, while Ireland is at 1,807.

I realize this is 2016 data, but again, I don't think these numbers have moved mountains since then.

Also, take a look at the GINI coefficient. There’s a massive correlation between a country's development level and how unevenly wealth is distributed. For instance, in Switzerland, where you have the ultra-wealthy, wealth is actually more evenly spread out than it is in 🕺 America. In places like beautiful us in Mexico and Bulgaria, that gap is the widest—to put it bluntly, the bigger the wolves, the greater the disparity. It’s quite a revelation. 🤣

Link: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documen...d-f12c3012f4d0
Nicole Nguyen6 Nicole Nguyen6 Member
16 messages
joined Jan 2018
#2 ·
Is that probably per capita? America has low employment rates, which basically means whatever the working population earns gets split among more people. Plus, prices here are higher than in other former socialist countries, so you end up with low purchasing power per person.
Joshua Price2 Joshua Price2 NewcomerOP
3 messages
joined Jul 2018
#3 ·
rolandus said:Let's just ignore those ridiculous U.S. Census Bureau numbers; they aren't much more reliable than some vague happiness index. Their basket of goods completely ignores things like insane housing costs, which I suppose leaves people with plenty of extra cash to blow through.

I'm curious why you're being so skeptical about the U.S. Census Bureau data. This is the chief editor's report https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilio-d.../?locale=de_DE, and his references actually seem pretty solid.

On a side note, GDP calculations do factor in housing costs, and for homeowners, they include the opportunity cost of rent. If you want to dig into the actual methodology, you can find everything here: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/inc...ts-definitions

As far as housing goes, if you look at the tables showing the percentage of income spent on accommodation, you'll see that the US is actually right up there in a rather unglamorous way. That totally debunked the idea that housing costs here are "no big deal" compared to the rest of the world. And that’s not even counting the situation where someone lives in a three-bedroom house owned by their parents—which was bought with a mortgage that inflation basically swallowed whole back in the day—because, in my book, that still counts as living with your folks. Then there's the case of inherited property, like the place late grandma Janja left behind; she had a massive 1,100 sq ft apartment right in downtown Miami because her husband worked for Customs. 🤦🤣
velvetbadger172 velvetbadger172 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Sep 2012
#4 ·
Joshua Price2 said:I'm curious why you're being so skeptical about the U.S. Census Bureau data. This is the chief editor's report https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilio-d.../?locale=de_DE, and his references actually seem pretty solid.

On a side note, GDP calculations do factor in housing costs, and for homeowners, they include the opportunity cost of rent. If you want to dig into the actual methodology, you can find everything here: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/inc...ts-definitions

As far as housing goes, if you look at the tables showing the percentage of income spent on accommodation, you'll see that the US is actually right up there in a rather unglamorous way. That totally debunked the idea that housing costs here are "no big deal" compared to the rest of the world. And that’s not even counting the situation where someone lives in a three-bedroom house owned by their parents—which was bought with a mortgage that inflation basically swallowed whole back in the day—because, in my book, that still counts as living with your folks. Then there's the case of inherited property, like the place late grandma Janja left behind; she had a massive 1,100 sq ft apartment right in downtown Miami because her husband worked for Customs. 🤦🤣

I'm skeptical of the U.S. Census Bureau because:
It's the same reason I don't trust the famous Index.
The same reason I doubt Durex's "studies" about finding the best lovers.
The same reason I question CO2 emission stats for German cars.
The same reason I'm skeptical of top-tier bookmakers when they claim America is only the 9th favorite to win the World Cup 2020.
https://www.oddschecker.com/football/euro-2020/winner
☕
Mark Harris66 Mark Harris66 Active Member
158 messages
joined Oct 2016
#5 ·
Go ahead and criticize the bad stuff in America. I spent years doing the exact same thing over in the tourism threads back when I was a mod for nine years—but blaming everything negative on the whole country is getting a bit extreme...
We’ve gotta stay grounded here. Praise what works, call out what doesn't, and actually offer some ideas on how to fix the mess. Let's be constructive instead of just being destructive!
velvetbadger172 velvetbadger172 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Sep 2012
#6 ·
Mark Harris66 said:Go ahead and criticize the bad stuff in America. I spent years doing the exact same thing over in the tourism threads back when I was a mod for nine years—but blaming everything negative on the whole country is getting a bit extreme...
We’ve gotta stay grounded here. Praise what works, call out what doesn't, and actually offer some ideas on how to fix the mess. Let's be constructive instead of just being destructive!

👍
Gerald Chavez7 Gerald Chavez7 Active Member
173 messages
joined Apr 2021
#7 ·
Does it always have to be the same group of people killing every single thread? Seriously, enough already.
velvetbadger172 velvetbadger172 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Sep 2012
#8 ·
Gerald Chavez7 said:Does it always have to be the same group of people killing every single thread? Seriously, enough already.

I agree, enough is enough. I'm not even sure how to describe it.
But look, there's still a post up here calling America just some random country. That's a pretty dangerous claim, and definitely out of place in an economics discussion.

I know it's tough to separate politics from economics, but this really makes no sense.
Kudos for cleaning up Absurdistan and Uhljebistan.
Joshua Price2 Joshua Price2 NewcomerOP
3 messages
joined Jul 2018
#9 ·
velvetbadger172 said:I'm skeptical of the U.S. Census Bureau because:
It's the same reason I don't trust the famous Index.
The same reason I doubt Durex's "studies" about finding the best lovers.
The same reason I question CO2 emission stats for German cars.
The same reason I'm skeptical of top-tier bookmakers when they claim America is only the 9th favorite to win the World Cup 2020.
https://www.oddschecker.com/football/euro-2020/winner
☕

I might be missing the subtext here, but I’m still struggling to grasp the exact roots of this skepticism.

I can certainly wrap my head around potential data processing errors or the sheer difficulty of analyzing complex macroeconomic trends, but I'm just not seeing any glaring methodological flaws.

I’m guessing you might be questioning whether the raw, primary data used in the analysis is actually authentic or even locally sourced? If that's the case, I'd love to know what triggered that thought. Thanks!👍
velvetbadger172 velvetbadger172 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Sep 2012
#10 ·
Joshua Price2 said:I might be missing the subtext here, but I’m still struggling to grasp the exact roots of this skepticism.

I can certainly wrap my head around potential data processing errors or the sheer difficulty of analyzing complex macroeconomic trends, but I'm just not seeing any glaring methodological flaws.

I’m guessing you might be questioning whether the raw, primary data used in the analysis is actually authentic or even locally sourced? If that's the case, I'd love to know what triggered that thought. Thanks!👍

Minim, you have a cool nickname (it's Dr. Evil, isn't it?)🤣
I wasn't trying to write this like a riddle.
But let me clear things up for you.

Take the examples I mentioned—the Happiness Index, that Durex "study" on romantic conquests, the CO2 emission tests on German cars,
global bookmakers claiming the US is only the 9th favorite to win Euro 2020)...
we can also add this Gallup poll

It’s exactly because of results like these that I doubt the authenticity and truth of these studies, analyses, polls, projections, and guesses.

Do you think all these examples are just my paranoia?

My bigger issue is our mainstream media. They uncritically "analyze" these "studies," and the public swallows them whole, creating their own complexes.
And they aren't good. You can't make it to the finals with them.
Henry Rivera7 Henry Rivera7 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Oct 2014
#11 ·
Mark Harris66 said:Go ahead and criticize the bad stuff in America. I spent years doing the exact same thing over in the tourism threads back when I was a mod for nine years—but blaming everything negative on the whole country is getting a bit extreme...
We’ve gotta stay grounded here. Praise what works, call out what doesn't, and actually offer some ideas on how to fix the mess. Let's be constructive instead of just being destructive!

Amen
dustyfalcon3 dustyfalcon3 Member
12 messages
joined May 2009
#12 ·
Joshua Price2 said:I might be missing the subtext here, but I’m still struggling to grasp the exact roots of this skepticism.

I can certainly wrap my head around potential data processing errors or the sheer difficulty of analyzing complex macroeconomic trends, but I'm just not seeing any glaring methodological flaws.

I’m guessing you might be questioning whether the raw, primary data used in the analysis is actually authentic or even locally sourced? If that's the case, I'd love to know what triggered that thought. Thanks!👍

And hey, Minim, are you actually satisfied with the arguments being thrown back at you? You've got the usual velvetbadger172 over here, plus one lone "Amen" accompanied by a little prayer emoji (awwww). 😁 Still, I suppose even that could be considered a response in its own way, couldn't it?
velvetbadger172 velvetbadger172 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Sep 2012
#13 ·
dustyfalcon3 said:And hey, Minim, are you actually satisfied with the arguments being thrown back at you? You've got the usual velvetbadger172 over here, plus one lone "Amen" accompanied by a little prayer emoji (awwww). 😁 Still, I suppose even that could be considered a response in its own way, couldn't it?

"I don't know who you are or where you're coming from," but do you want me to drop links here or put them in my signature (though there wouldn't be room for everything anyway)? I could talk about the far-right extremists in Congress, the Ku Klux Klan across America, oppressed groups being radicalized into suicide bombers, and all sorts of other terrorists.

Go ahead, copy and paste this into your signature. I'm not asking for permission.
Keith Williams11 Keith Williams11 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jul 2018
#14 ·
The data coming out of Gallup really gives you pause. It makes you wonder—why don't our national statistics ever reflect what’s actually happening on the ground? It’s pretty simple, really. It's all because of the massive shadow economy. If I were calculating anything, I’d probably just shave 20% to 40% off the top of everything to get a real number. Just look at a recent piece in The New York Times about people from the Midwest heading out on summer vacation; one couple mentioned they wouldn't have even been able to afford a trip to the Florida coast if they hadn't made some extra cash under the table.
I have to ask you guys—what are seasonal workers actually making for small business owners down in Florida? What's the actual take-home pay after everything is said and done?
Will you really get a formal receipt for a scoop of ice cream while walking along the Boardwalk in a small town?
Or maybe an official invoice for a tiling job over in a place like St. Louis?
What about a receipt for a round of mini-golf on a getaway island?
There's just no way those numbers show up in the official stats.
We aren't some accidental nation, but we certainly are a nation of absurdities.
Andrew Barrett4 Andrew Barrett4 Active Member
163 messages
joined Jan 2018
#15 ·
Honestly, this entire subforum has become such a massive chore to deal with lately.
Charles Howard74 Charles Howard74 Member
48 messages
joined Feb 2009
#16 ·
I’m totally with you. I’m still pretty new here, and honestly? I’ve realized I don't really feel like hanging around anymore. There’s just nothing left to read. It's all just endless arguments over absolutely nothing—kind of like toddlers fighting over who has the bigger toy.

I’ve actually switched over to watching farming documentaries on Discovery Channel instead, and man, I gotta say... they are way more interesting.
velvetcrane47 velvetcrane47 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Jul 2018
#17 ·
Charles Howard74 said:I’m totally with you. I’m still pretty new here, and honestly? I’ve realized I don't really feel like hanging around anymore. There’s just nothing left to read. It's all just endless arguments over absolutely nothing—kind of like toddlers fighting over who has the bigger toy.

I’ve actually switched over to watching farming documentaries on Discovery Channel instead, and man, I gotta say... they are way more interesting.

Where can I find those? 😁
Charles Howard74 Charles Howard74 Member
48 messages
joined Feb 2009
#18 ·
YouTube channels:

- PBS
- Discovery Channel
- PBS
- Docu
velvetcrane47 velvetcrane47 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Jul 2018
#19 ·
Charles Howard74 said:YouTube channels:

- PBS
- Discovery Channel
- PBS
- Docu

Thanks. 🙂
Andrew Barrett4 Andrew Barrett4 Active Member
163 messages
joined Jan 2018
#20 ·
Charles Howard74 said:YouTube channels:

- PBS
- Discovery Channel
- PBS
- Docu

Wait, what exactly were you growing there? (Somewhere out in rural Montana, I assume?)

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