95% of Family Farms facing ruin after joining the European Union

rowdypilot19 said:And honestly, that’s the catch for all of them, right? Because once they're done with the Wheat, they actually need to have something else lined up to work on.

Which is precisely why I argued that we really need to focus on education; we have to make people understand that sticking to monoculture—planting the same crop over and over—essentially guts the soil. It invites diseases, pests, and weeds to take hold, and eventually leads to total soil degradation as the humus levels plummet, largely because everyone relies so heavily on synthetic fertilizers for grain crops, but I won't go on listing the rest of the consequences here. 🕺

It’s kind of funny to me how everyone just assumes that if you live by the coast, your whole life revolves around tourism.

My family has always been in farming—basically my entire extended family on my dad's side. And honestly? My relatives make a really solid living by basically playing the agriculture and tourism game at the same time. They tell me, "Oh, we have three houses, it's easy for us." I mean, sure, things are easier now, but let's be real: two out of those three houses were built off farming, and maybe half of one was from tourism.

People just grew whatever made sense to make a buck at the time, you know? So they'd be out there growing cabbage, Swiss chard, spinach, maybe some lettuce here, tomatoes, cucumbers, zucchini, watermelons... you name it.

But if you actually ask them how much land they're working with, about 70% of them have plots like that right behind their houses back in the Midwest.

neonhound18 said:Which is precisely why I argued that we really need to focus on education; we have to make people understand that sticking to monoculture—planting the same crop over and over—essentially guts the soil. It invites diseases, pests, and weeds to take hold, and eventually leads to total soil degradation as the humus levels plummet, largely because everyone relies so heavily on synthetic fertilizers for grain crops, but I won't go on listing the rest of the consequences here. 🕺

Look, they know all that stuff. The real issue is that nobody's actually doing soil analysis or anything serious. The pros who actually know their business do it, obviously, but without the right tech and know-how, you're stuck. It's the same everywhere.
The goal should be helping those folks (most farmers aren't to blame here, by the way) land those high-level roles—that's the whole point. Every single past administration—whether it was the Republicans, Democrats, or whoever else—just wasted time fussing over tiny family plots. They completely missed the mark. They should have been investing in industry near the rural areas, like how things used to be. Now? Everything in the Midwest is just falling apart—think wood processing, silos, mills, whatever.
Once they finally sort out the land registries, those massive tracts of land will end up in the hands of serious corporations. That’s where the future of farming lies for us Midwesters.

I'm just not sure what's going to happen with livestock and pigs. There's endless potential for sheep and goats (even down by your coast/seaside), but nobody—and I mean actual investors—seems to give a damn.

I don't even get what this thread is about.
It's either people collecting subsidies and then "forgetting" their taxes and social security, or just the fact that the number of Family Farms is dropping...
The drop in Family Farms is happening for a simple reason: now owners actually have to pay their own Social Security and healthcare premiums, along with everyone else on the farm. It wasn't like this before, back when anyone who grew a couple of tomatoes would just register as a Family Farm to grab some government money...
Now that running a Family Farm comes with actual fixed costs, the people who weren't producing anything at all have shut down. The ones actually farming stayed in business, so we finally have a realistic count of Family Farms (which probably would be a few thousand lower if it were still the old way)...

Are you seriously suggesting that tourism in America isn't subsidized by the state budget?
Give me a break. Don't even joke about that.

rowdypilot19 said:And honestly, that’s the catch for all of them, right? Because once they're done with the Wheat, they actually need to have something else lined up to work on.

So, does Wheat just grow by magic? No labor, no investment required? Care to explain the "technology" behind growing wheat here.

James Phillips92 said:So, does Wheat just grow by magic? No labor, no investment required? Care to explain the "technology" behind growing wheat here.

Growing Wheat takes about 20 working days...
I mean, you've got plowing, soil prep, seeding, fertilizing, more fertilizing after it sprouts, and finally harvesting....
That's basically it... It's probably one of the least profitable crops out there.

slysurfer14 said:Growing Wheat takes about 20 working days...
I mean, you've got plowing, soil prep, seeding, fertilizing, more fertilizing after it sprouts, and finally harvesting....
That's basically it... It's probably one of the least profitable crops out there.

Three disease protections? Are we just waiting for days when the wind isn't blowing? Like, you start spraying, the wind picks up, and you have to pack it in and head home.... then there's insect control, weed control, growth regulators—and in a bad year, you might end up treating the crop four different times from planting through to maturity. Oh, and if an insect infestation hits during the heading stage? You get to spray again. And then you just have to pray to God that after you've done everything perfectly, you don't get hit by a late frost—and that the price stays at least $4.00 for Grade 3 wheat. It's not exactly a walk in the park, is it? Honestly, your take on subsidies is a bit misguided. That money would actually mean something if you weren't paying rent on the land—but where is that rent? $933 What kind of subsidy covers the cost per acre? Basically, you have to be in that lucky 5% who execute everything flawlessly just to break even—and even then, you're banking on decent rainfall and avoiding major storms. Now you'll probably tell me to "just get insurance." Well, I do, but insurance only recognizes damage if the yield drops below 5.5 tons per acre. Meanwhile, I have to chase at least 8 tons per acre just to feel like I actually made a living.
It’s not quite that simple. I'm not trying to lecture you on tourism since that's not my field. But believe me—you have far more than 20 days of work when it comes to wheat....

rustydriver said:If having fertile farmland is such a massive upgrade over owning vacation rentals, why don't you two (rowdypilot19 and wearytrucker22) just sell everything, move to the Midwest, and go chase those government subsidies?

It’s honestly absurd watching you try to push this narrative that managing an Airbnb is some grueling ordeal. You clean the place once every ten days, hand off the keys to tourists, and collect the cash. Or, if you're feeling lazy, you just hand over 5-10% to a property management agency to handle the whole thing while you sit back and watch the money roll in without lifting a finger.

And then you have the nerve to compare that to agriculture, where you’re grinding for 6 to 9 months a year, putting in well over 100 hours a month just to keep the operation from collapsing. Basically, the rental owners start with an extra 100 hours of free time every month to pick up a second job—or, as is usually the case, to do absolutely nothing. Not to mention that farmers are at the mercy of things they can't control, like the weather. This year was a nightmare with the drought burning everything to a crisp, whereas on the coast, you’ll get rain 70% of the time like you did three years ago. The rental income stays steady regardless.

Then there’s the overhead. You have to till the land constantly using heavy machinery, which means either renting equipment or shelling out a fortune to own it. And at the end of the day, you actually have to sell the product. Most of the time, you're selling at the border just to break even, or sometimes even at a loss. Those subsidies you love to talk about aren't making people rich; they're just keeping them from drowning. That's the reality, despite the story you two are trying to sell.

How can you even put tourism and farming in the same conversation? Look at how something like Ultra in Split works—scammers hike prices by 200% and fill every room without having invested a single cent more than they did last year. When does that happen in farming? When demand outstrips supply—like during this drought when yields dropped by 50%—does the price skyrocket? No. If the local supply is too low, we just import food from other countries, and the domestic farmers still get stuck with the same old prices.

Sure, there’s a fair percentage of people who went bust because they overleveraged themselves on tractors and combines, or simply because the economy tanked. But what really grinds my gears is the attempt to claim that renting out apartments is harder work or less profitable than farming.

Look, man, you clearly don't know the first thing about tourism or the rental market. Honestly, it might be better if you just kept your mouth shut so you don't embarrass yourself.

rowdypilot19 As specified by:
No, I mean they were only protected because they were state-backed, just like those massive government-owned corporations. They’d lock in prices ahead of time, overcharge for everything, and then the companies would just patch up their losses using taxpayer money from the federal budget—nobody actually gave a damn about the consequences.

Of course, when you look at who was actually padding the budget, it was mostly the USA and Russia. Though, if I had to be more precise, it was primarily the USA.
.

I guess you're talking about the old America days? But honestly, what was it like before that? Ever since the mid-1800s, the Midwest has been incredibly rich and fertile—back when we actually had some order brought to us by the Americans—but then for the last 20 years or so, we've just been struggling. And now, with the climate changing, I suppose it means we humans are the ones to blame.

wearytrucker22 said:The kind of rental you're describing pulls in maybe $60 to $200 tops in places like Miami or LA.
You can tell by my rates that I’m not running apartments—I’m running rooms. The price is high because I provide actual value (and no, I don't mean food). I'm up working for an hour before the guests even wake up, and I don't hit the sack until after they do. My workday is a minimum of 18 hours. Taking guests out to restaurants is work, too; I have to play host, translate, explain things, blah, blah, blah.

Midwest farming (for most people, anyway) is child's play.
Some guy plows 100 acres in ten days, sows his Wheat, harvests it, and collects his government subsidies. $75000 If he's unlucky enough for the crop to actually grow, he has to harvest it, haul it to the buyer, and then spend his time complaining about low prices and blocking highways.

I’m sorry, but I think you’re talking complete nonsense.

wearytrucker22 Asks:
I mean, I guess they probably have to get out there and actually put in the work too—spraying the fields, dealing with all that rot and decay, and then obviously having to go out and buy the seed.
And because of how they’re playing games with the wheat supply, American tourism is going to take a massive hit too, especially since bakery products are such a fundamental part of the experience. You have all these high-end restaurants and local pizza joints that end up having to source their flour from outside suppliers just to keep their doors open.
I honestly don't think you can ever make a decent pizza using American wheat; it just doesn't work. You might get by making some okay bread or maybe even some pastries, but as far as pizza goes, you're just out of luck.

More nonsense. If there's one thing that’s actually true, it's that most of our bakery products are subpar, but you can't exactly pin that on the farmers; the blame lies squarely with the bakers. I mean, if certain bakeries are capable of turning out incredible goods, then others could easily do the same if they actually cared to try. And yeah, I’m well aware that some of our local bakers are importing flour from Mexico just because it’s cheaper, not because it’s any better quality.

rowdypilot19 said:And honestly, that’s the catch for all of them, right? Because once they're done with the Wheat, they actually need to have something else lined up to work on.

And you've gone and started in with the nonsense too.

For all those of you who seem convinced that some farmer is only planting wheat just to chase government subsidies, I’d suggest you go do a little homework. Seriously, try to find the actual breakdown of how many acres are allocated to each specific crop. I’m certain that kind of data is out there somewhere if you actually bother to look for it.

neonhound18 Asks:
That’s exactly why I argued that we need to focus on education. We really have to sit people down and explain that planting a single crop in a monoculture basically ruins the soil. You end up inviting a whole host of diseases, pests, and weeds to move in, which eventually leads to total soil degradation because the humus levels just plummet—mostly because everyone relies so heavily on synthetic fertilizers for grain crops. I could go on and on about that, but you get the idea. 🕺

No self-respecting farmer—someone who actually treats this as a profession rather than just some shady middleman looking for a quick buck—would ever dream of planting crops in a monoculture. That’s just common sense, something my late grandfather drilled into me from day one.

rowdypilot19 said:It’s kind of funny to me how everyone just assumes that if you live by the coast, your whole life revolves around tourism.

My family has always been in farming—basically my entire extended family on my dad's side. And honestly? My relatives make a really solid living by basically playing the agriculture and tourism game at the same time. They tell me, "Oh, we have three houses, it's easy for us." I mean, sure, things are easier now, but let's be real: two out of those three houses were built off farming, and maybe half of one was from tourism.

People just grew whatever made sense to make a buck at the time, you know? So they'd be out there growing cabbage, Swiss chard, spinach, maybe some lettuce here, tomatoes, cucumbers, zucchini, watermelons... you name it.

But if you actually ask them how much land they're working with, about 70% of them have plots like that right behind their houses back in the Midwest.

I think this is absolutely spot on.
First of all, let's be clear—not everyone lives within the metropolitan belt. 1.9 miles It’s coming from the coast, too. And honestly, most of the people actually living there don't even have anything available to rent out anymore.

Everything people are saying about agriculture is spot on. Take a place like Pakoštane, for example. Back in the day, everyone there was focused on farming—the land around Lake Vrana is incredibly fertile and productive. But once tourism really took off in the 80s, things shifted completely, and now it seems like almost everyone has just walked away from farming altogether. The prices they get for crops aren't worth the effort anymore, and to make matters worse, the Ornithological Reserve is teeming with birds that end up eating whatever manages to grow. So, you end up with this amazingly rich, fertile soil just sitting there neglected, while the tourism industry continues to boom.

Thomas Nelson25 said:Look, they know all that stuff. The real issue is that nobody's actually doing soil analysis or anything serious. The pros who actually know their business do it, obviously, but without the right tech and know-how, you're stuck. It's the same everywhere.
The goal should be helping those folks (most farmers aren't to blame here, by the way) land those high-level roles—that's the whole point. Every single past administration—whether it was the Republicans, Democrats, or whoever else—just wasted time fussing over tiny family plots. They completely missed the mark. They should have been investing in industry near the rural areas, like how things used to be. Now? Everything in the Midwest is just falling apart—think wood processing, silos, mills, whatever.
Once they finally sort out the land registries, those massive tracts of land will end up in the hands of serious corporations. That’s where the future of farming lies for us Midwesters.

I'm just not sure what's going to happen with livestock and pigs. There's endless potential for sheep and goats (even down by your coast/seaside), but nobody—and I mean actual investors—seems to give a damn.

The truth is, investors aren't interested, and finding workers is nearly impossible. Livestock is brutal work; once you decide to raise sheep or goats, you might as well have signed yourself up for a life sentence.

slysurfer14 said:I don't even get what this thread is about.
It's either people collecting subsidies and then "forgetting" their taxes and social security, or just the fact that the number of Family Farms is dropping...
The drop in Family Farms is happening for a simple reason: now owners actually have to pay their own Social Security and healthcare premiums, along with everyone else on the farm. It wasn't like this before, back when anyone who grew a couple of tomatoes would just register as a Family Farm to grab some government money...
Now that running a Family Farm comes with actual fixed costs, the people who weren't producing anything at all have shut down. The ones actually farming stayed in business, so we finally have a realistic count of Family Farms (which probably would be a few thousand lower if it were still the old way)...

Come on, let's hear from some actual Family Farm owners instead of just the armchair theorists.
The number of Family Farms will naturally dwindle over time because so many of them are essentially "retirement" households. And frankly, their heirs don't see any future or any sense in sticking with agriculture.

slysurfer14 said:Growing Wheat takes about 20 working days...
I mean, you've got plowing, soil prep, seeding, fertilizing, more fertilizing after it sprouts, and finally harvesting....
That's basically it... It's probably one of the least profitable crops out there.

No matter how unprofitable it might be, we still need it. It's essential for food and for crop rotation.
The problem is that all these self-proclaimed experts seem to think a farmer just sows wheat and nothing else.

wearytrucker22 said:You're absolutely right—it hasn't been easy. One single slip-up and one bad review can tank the whole operation. My original plan was to pull in about $6,000 to $7,000 per season. But if you spot a gap in the market and put the work in, you've basically broken even on your initial investment between this year and last. Now, I’ve identified a specific niche paying anywhere from $1,250 to $1,500 a day. Moving forward...

I just spotted an opportunity to pull in about $1,300 to $1,600 a day, but there’s a catch: you need at least $650,000 in capital—or a massive loan—to get off the ground. Honestly, that kind of debt is a joke to ask of regular folks. I’m personally not diving into this until I’ve scraped together 80% to 90% of the cash myself. I say that as a nod to those people out in the Midwest asking for loans just to start production. Sure, getting a bank loan is easy, but you actually have to pay it back, and nobody is giving you any guarantees once things go south. Taking a loan isn't a handout; if you don't have your own skin in the game, you're basically throwing money into the wind and setting yourself up for total ruin. If you don't have the funds, just pack up and head to Denmark to work on some pig farm. Get your experience and build up enough seed money to cover at least 30% of the investment—not counting the land, obviously. When you're playing with your own hard-earned cash, the psychology is completely different than when you're gambling with someone else's money.

Here’s how you actually make it in some small Midwest town with maybe 100 to 500 people.

Get together at some house, grab a beer, and round up your fellow citizens.
Let's get a farming collective off the ground.
Let's get an inventory of the machinery together.
Compile a list of core competencies. You have to know everything—and frankly, you need to understand agricultural production better than any of the competition in the European Union. It’s like how people from Southern California just inherently know how to grow the perfect mandarins or watermelons.
Compile a land registry list.
So, let's say you all decide to pool your resources and jump into large-scale production together—we're talking about hitting a target of, say, 1,000 tons of vegetables.
So, you want a full-scale vegetable harvest schedule mapped out a year in advance, including specific quantities? Fine. Let’s get down to business. You can't just wander into the garden in July and hope for the best; that's how you end up with nothing but dirt and regret. If you want to actually feed people—or at least have enough to stock a pantry—you need a roadmap. Here is how you structure a professional-grade planting and harvest master plan for an American backyard or small farm setup. **Phase 1: The Inventory & Goal Setting (The "What" and "How Much")** Before you touch a shovel, you need to know your numbers. Don't guess. * **Define your yield targets:** Are we talking about feeding a family of four for the summer, or are we trying to preserve enough canned goods to last through a Midwestern winter? * **Calculate by weight or volume:** Instead of saying "I want tomatoes," say "I need 50 pounds of tomatoes." That dictates whether you plant three plants or twenty. * **Analyze your zone:** This isn't one-size-fits-all. Your plan for a garden in Florida is going to look nothing like a plan for a garden in Maine. Determine your USDA Hardiness Zone immediately. **Phase 2: The Seasonal Breakdown (The Timeline)** You need to divide your year into three distinct operational windows. **1. The Early Spring Push (Frost to Late May)** * **Focus:** Cold-hardy crops. Think peas, spinach, radishes, and kale. * **The Math:** These grow fast. If you need 5 lbs of radishes, you can plant them in waves every two weeks to ensure a continuous supply rather than one massive, overwhelming harvest. * **Action:** Get your soil prep done in late February/early March. **2. The Summer Heat Wave (June to August)** * **Focus:** The heavy hitters. Tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, corn, and squash. * **The Math:** This is where your quantity calculations matter most. Corn takes up significant real estate for relatively low caloric density per square foot compared to, say, potatoes. Plan your acreage accordingly. * **Action:** Stagger your plantings. Don't put all your tomato starts in the ground on the same day unless you want 40 pounds of tomatoes rotting on your porch all at once in July. **3. The Autumn Harvest (September to November)** * **Focus:** Root vegetables and brassicas. Carrots, beets, garlic (which gets planted in the fall for next year), and broccoli. * **The Math:** Garlic requires a massive lead time. You plant it now to reap the rewards next summer. * **Action:** This is your cleanup and preservation phase. **Phase 3: Creating the Master Spreadsheet** To do this right, you need a document with these columns: 1. **Crop Name** 2. **Target Quantity** (lbs/oz) 3. **Estimated Yield per Plant** (Research this; don't wing it) 4. **Number of Plants Needed** (Target Quantity ÷ Yield per Plant = Number of Plants) 5. **Planting Date** (Based on your local frost dates) 6. **Expected Harvest Window** **The Bottom Line:** If you aren't calculating based on the actual yield of a single plant, you aren't planning—you're just wishing. Do the math, account for the inevitable pests or a random July drought, and build in a 15% buffer. That’s the only way to actually succeed.
If you can find someone truly capable, send them out across the US and the coastlines to hammer out deals with shopping malls and the big corporations that supply hotels and everything else.
Look, if you’ve got inventory that got trashed because of some crazy weather hitting your supply chain right after you signed a sales contract, don't just sit there staring at the loss. If you actually want to run a business, go out and buy the stock on the open market instead. Grab it, get it moved, and deliver it to your customers five or ten minutes before the deadline hits. That's how you handle it.
Success is a total guarantee if you can pull off 1,000 tons of organic produce every single day. You negotiate the deals now, deliver next year, and you’ll have everything sold off to the Mediterranean market without a single hitch.

I actually pitched this exact idea to my boss, who’s from a small place near Zadar. They have incredibly fertile fields out there, but 70% of it is just sitting idle and overgrown.
Unfortunately, nothing came of it. The problem is that the older generation is living off their German pensions and using that money to support their grandkids.😲😁😲
Plus, the land ownership is a nightmare—every plot seems to have ten or fifteen deceased owners tied up in legal limbo. It would be best to just convert everything into one massive olive grove, but honestly, who is going to satisfy every single living heir?

Thomas Nelson25 said:Look at this post

I just don't know what's going to happen with livestock and pig farming. There is endless potential for sheep and goats (both out where you guys are on the coast and inland), but nobody—and I mean investors—seems to give a damn.

There is potential, but it requires grueling work. I knew a young guy back home who worked with goats for twenty years.
Eventually, he rounded them all up and moved them to some desolate, remote island. He basically did a favor for the hunters who head out there to hunt "wild goats."
The guy spends his time fishing now. Mostly selling everything under the table, too.
Mind you, he isn't exactly a master of the craft

And then there's this one guy, who is a whole different story:

Paul Gonzalez10 said:Three disease protections? Are we just waiting for days when the wind isn't blowing? Like, you start spraying, the wind picks up, and you have to pack it in and head home.... then there's insect control, weed control, growth regulators—and in a bad year, you might end up treating the crop four different times from planting through to maturity. Oh, and if an insect infestation hits during the heading stage? You get to spray again. And then you just have to pray to God that after you've done everything perfectly, you don't get hit by a late frost—and that the price stays at least $4.00 for Grade 3 wheat. It's not exactly a walk in the park, is it? Honestly, your take on subsidies is a bit misguided. That money would actually mean something if you weren't paying rent on the land—but where is that rent? $933 What kind of subsidy covers the cost per acre? Basically, you have to be in that lucky 5% who execute everything flawlessly just to break even—and even then, you're banking on decent rainfall and avoiding major storms. Now you'll probably tell me to "just get insurance." Well, I do, but insurance only recognizes damage if the yield drops below 5.5 tons per acre. Meanwhile, I have to chase at least 8 tons per acre just to feel like I actually made a living.
It’s not quite that simple. I'm not trying to lecture you on tourism since that's not my field. But believe me—you have far more than 20 days of work when it comes to wheat....

So, what was that supposed to mean? Saying you have more than 20 days of work... you really don't...
And you're basically admitting the crop isn't profitable...

But everyone plants it anyway because whether there's a harvest or not, someone's still footing the bill... you don't spray it or fertilize it because you say it's too expensive....

Paul Gonzalez10 said:Three disease protections? Are we just waiting for days when the wind isn't blowing? Like, you start spraying, the wind picks up, and you have to pack it in and head home.... then there's insect control, weed control, growth regulators—and in a bad year, you might end up treating the crop four different times from planting through to maturity. Oh, and if an insect infestation hits during the heading stage? You get to spray again. And then you just have to pray to God that after you've done everything perfectly, you don't get hit by a late frost—and that the price stays at least $4.00 for Grade 3 wheat. It's not exactly a walk in the park, is it? Honestly, your take on subsidies is a bit misguided. That money would actually mean something if you weren't paying rent on the land—but where is that rent? $933 What kind of subsidy covers the cost per acre? Basically, you have to be in that lucky 5% who execute everything flawlessly just to break even—and even then, you're banking on decent rainfall and avoiding major storms. Now you'll probably tell me to "just get insurance." Well, I do, but insurance only recognizes damage if the yield drops below 5.5 tons per acre. Meanwhile, I have to chase at least 8 tons per acre just to feel like I actually made a living.
It’s not quite that simple. I'm not trying to lecture you on tourism since that's not my field. But believe me—you have far more than 20 days of work when it comes to wheat....

Then why even grow wheat?

So, basically, you need someone to guarantee your buyback, set the price you want, provide the irrigation, give you the land for free, and bump up the subsidies.

It seems to me like it's always the same people complaining, every single year, it's a bad year. Honestly, it feels like it's just farmers complaining about everything.

Is someone forcing you to do this if it isn't profitable?

bluetinker54 said:Look, man, you clearly don't know the first thing about tourism or the rental market. Honestly, it might be better if you just kept your mouth shut so you don't embarrass yourself.

rowdypilot19 As specified by:
No, I mean they were only protected because they were state-backed, just like those massive government-owned corporations. They’d lock in prices ahead of time, overcharge for everything, and then the companies would just patch up their losses using taxpayer money from the federal budget—nobody actually gave a damn about the consequences.

Of course, when you look at who was actually padding the budget, it was mostly the USA and Russia. Though, if I had to be more precise, it was primarily the USA.
.

I guess you're talking about the old America days? But honestly, what was it like before that? Ever since the mid-1800s, the Midwest has been incredibly rich and fertile—back when we actually had some order brought to us by the Americans—but then for the last 20 years or so, we've just been struggling. And now, with the climate changing, I suppose it means we humans are the ones to blame.

I’m sorry, but I think you’re talking complete nonsense.

wearytrucker22 Asks:
I mean, I guess they probably have to get out there and actually put in the work too—spraying the fields, dealing with all that rot and decay, and then obviously having to go out and buy the seed.
And because of how they’re playing games with the wheat supply, American tourism is going to take a massive hit too, especially since bakery products are such a fundamental part of the experience. You have all these high-end restaurants and local pizza joints that end up having to source their flour from outside suppliers just to keep their doors open.
I honestly don't think you can ever make a decent pizza using American wheat; it just doesn't work. You might get by making some okay bread or maybe even some pastries, but as far as pizza goes, you're just out of luck.

More nonsense. If there's one thing that’s actually true, it's that most of our bakery products are subpar, but you can't exactly pin that on the farmers; the blame lies squarely with the bakers. I mean, if certain bakeries are capable of turning out incredible goods, then others could easily do the same if they actually cared to try. And yeah, I’m well aware that some of our local bakers are importing flour from Mexico just because it’s cheaper, not because it’s any better quality.

And you've gone and started in with the nonsense too.

For all those of you who seem convinced that some farmer is only planting wheat just to chase government subsidies, I’d suggest you go do a little homework. Seriously, try to find the actual breakdown of how many acres are allocated to each specific crop. I’m certain that kind of data is out there somewhere if you actually bother to look for it.

neonhound18 Asks:
That’s exactly why I argued that we need to focus on education. We really have to sit people down and explain that planting a single crop in a monoculture basically ruins the soil. You end up inviting a whole host of diseases, pests, and weeds to move in, which eventually leads to total soil degradation because the humus levels just plummet—mostly because everyone relies so heavily on synthetic fertilizers for grain crops. I could go on and on about that, but you get the idea. 🕺

No self-respecting farmer—someone who actually treats this as a profession rather than just some shady middleman looking for a quick buck—would ever dream of planting crops in a monoculture. That’s just common sense, something my late grandfather drilled into me from day one.

I think this is absolutely spot on.
First of all, let's be clear—not everyone lives within the metropolitan belt. 1.9 miles It’s coming from the coast, too. And honestly, most of the people actually living there don't even have anything available to rent out anymore.

Everything people are saying about agriculture is spot on. Take a place like Pakoštane, for example. Back in the day, everyone there was focused on farming—the land around Lake Vrana is incredibly fertile and productive. But once tourism really took off in the 80s, things shifted completely, and now it seems like almost everyone has just walked away from farming altogether. The prices they get for crops aren't worth the effort anymore, and to make matters worse, the Ornithological Reserve is teeming with birds that end up eating whatever manages to grow. So, you end up with this amazingly rich, fertile soil just sitting there neglected, while the tourism industry continues to boom.

The truth is, investors aren't interested, and finding workers is nearly impossible. Livestock is brutal work; once you decide to raise sheep or goats, you might as well have signed yourself up for a life sentence.

Come on, let's hear from some actual Family Farm owners instead of just the armchair theorists.
The number of Family Farms will naturally dwindle over time because so many of them are essentially "retirement" households. And frankly, their heirs don't see any future or any sense in sticking with agriculture.

No matter how unprofitable it might be, we still need it. It's essential for food and for crop rotation.
The problem is that all these self-proclaimed experts seem to think a farmer just sows wheat and nothing else.

Back then, they had protection—government support, imports weren't easy, and technology wasn't where it is now.

Climate isn't a constant; it changes all the time.

You're starting with the nonsense too.

Not at all, it's always the same people complaining—the ones who expect the government to guarantee everything. Farmers, ranchers, and dairy producers.

Everyone else is doing fine, except maybe olive growers and vineyard owners; those folks in the coastal counties handle a good chunk of production.

No sane farmer (who is a professional and not just some middleman) plants crops in a monoculture. His late grandfather taught him that.

Is it just me, or does that last sentence sound kind of alarming?

That is spot on.
First off, not everyone lives right in that coastal strip 1.9 miles by the ocean. And even for those who do, most people can't find anything to rent anyway.

The stuff about farming is also totally true. Take a place like Pakoštane, for example. They used to be big into agriculture—you've got Lake Vrana nearby and the soil is incredibly fertile—but once tourism took off in the 80s, almost everyone just walked away from farming. The prices aren't worth it, and with the Ornithological Reserve being full of birds, they basically eat everything in sight. So, you end up with this really productive land just sitting there neglected, while tourism is absolutely booming.

In some spots, even just a mile away from the coast, tourists don't want to go anywhere near it... unless, I guess, you happen to own a villa with a pool.

Regarding the farming situation, my family is originally from near Pakoštane, and some of my relatives still do it—mostly vegetables along with some citrus—all alongside their tourism work. There is one cousin who actually started beekeeping, though, and he's doing really well with that.

I keep saying this, but compared to typical Midwest conditions, the plots here are just too small and scattered. Honestly, people would probably just laugh at them.

bluetinker54 said:Look, man, you clearly don't know the first thing about tourism or the rental market. Honestly, it might be better if you just kept your mouth shut so you don't embarrass yourself.

rowdypilot19 As specified by:
No, I mean they were only protected because they were state-backed, just like those massive government-owned corporations. They’d lock in prices ahead of time, overcharge for everything, and then the companies would just patch up their losses using taxpayer money from the federal budget—nobody actually gave a damn about the consequences.

Of course, when you look at who was actually padding the budget, it was mostly the USA and Russia. Though, if I had to be more precise, it was primarily the USA.
.

I guess you're talking about the old America days? But honestly, what was it like before that? Ever since the mid-1800s, the Midwest has been incredibly rich and fertile—back when we actually had some order brought to us by the Americans—but then for the last 20 years or so, we've just been struggling. And now, with the climate changing, I suppose it means we humans are the ones to blame.

I’m sorry, but I think you’re talking complete nonsense.

wearytrucker22 Asks:
I mean, I guess they probably have to get out there and actually put in the work too—spraying the fields, dealing with all that rot and decay, and then obviously having to go out and buy the seed.
And because of how they’re playing games with the wheat supply, American tourism is going to take a massive hit too, especially since bakery products are such a fundamental part of the experience. You have all these high-end restaurants and local pizza joints that end up having to source their flour from outside suppliers just to keep their doors open.
I honestly don't think you can ever make a decent pizza using American wheat; it just doesn't work. You might get by making some okay bread or maybe even some pastries, but as far as pizza goes, you're just out of luck.

More nonsense. If there's one thing that’s actually true, it's that most of our bakery products are subpar, but you can't exactly pin that on the farmers; the blame lies squarely with the bakers. I mean, if certain bakeries are capable of turning out incredible goods, then others could easily do the same if they actually cared to try. And yeah, I’m well aware that some of our local bakers are importing flour from Mexico just because it’s cheaper, not because it’s any better quality.

And you've gone and started in with the nonsense too.

For all those of you who seem convinced that some farmer is only planting wheat just to chase government subsidies, I’d suggest you go do a little homework. Seriously, try to find the actual breakdown of how many acres are allocated to each specific crop. I’m certain that kind of data is out there somewhere if you actually bother to look for it.

neonhound18 Asks:
That’s exactly why I argued that we need to focus on education. We really have to sit people down and explain that planting a single crop in a monoculture basically ruins the soil. You end up inviting a whole host of diseases, pests, and weeds to move in, which eventually leads to total soil degradation because the humus levels just plummet—mostly because everyone relies so heavily on synthetic fertilizers for grain crops. I could go on and on about that, but you get the idea. 🕺

No self-respecting farmer—someone who actually treats this as a profession rather than just some shady middleman looking for a quick buck—would ever dream of planting crops in a monoculture. That’s just common sense, something my late grandfather drilled into me from day one.

I think this is absolutely spot on.
First of all, let's be clear—not everyone lives within the metropolitan belt. 1.9 miles It’s coming from the coast, too. And honestly, most of the people actually living there don't even have anything available to rent out anymore.

Everything people are saying about agriculture is spot on. Take a place like Pakoštane, for example. Back in the day, everyone there was focused on farming—the land around Lake Vrana is incredibly fertile and productive. But once tourism really took off in the 80s, things shifted completely, and now it seems like almost everyone has just walked away from farming altogether. The prices they get for crops aren't worth the effort anymore, and to make matters worse, the Ornithological Reserve is teeming with birds that end up eating whatever manages to grow. So, you end up with this amazingly rich, fertile soil just sitting there neglected, while the tourism industry continues to boom.

The truth is, investors aren't interested, and finding workers is nearly impossible. Livestock is brutal work; once you decide to raise sheep or goats, you might as well have signed yourself up for a life sentence.

Come on, let's hear from some actual Family Farm owners instead of just the armchair theorists.
The number of Family Farms will naturally dwindle over time because so many of them are essentially "retirement" households. And frankly, their heirs don't see any future or any sense in sticking with agriculture.

No matter how unprofitable it might be, we still need it. It's essential for food and for crop rotation.
The problem is that all these self-proclaimed experts seem to think a farmer just sows wheat and nothing else.

It's the truth. I knew this retired fisherman back in the day who realized too late—he was sixty when he decided to pick up a herd of thirty goats. Once the reality of the sheer workload hit him, the stress just wrecked his nerves. He ended up selling the whole lot for pennies on the dollar before the animals could kill him first.

Now, there was one guy, though, who kept goats more as a hobby than anything else. He fenced off a little peninsula with some wire and kept about twenty goats there. All they ever got from him was a bit of corn and some water—usually tossed their way while he was heading out to go fishing.
In the spring, he’d grab a small-caliber rifle, make sure the local sheriff wasn't lurking around, and then... well, he'd "harvest" a few kids.
But let's be clear—that isn't a business; that's just a way to patch holes in a household budget.

bluetinker54 said:Look, man, you clearly don't know the first thing about tourism or the rental market. Honestly, it might be better if you just kept your mouth shut so you don't embarrass yourself.

rowdypilot19 As specified by:
No, I mean they were only protected because they were state-backed, just like those massive government-owned corporations. They’d lock in prices ahead of time, overcharge for everything, and then the companies would just patch up their losses using taxpayer money from the federal budget—nobody actually gave a damn about the consequences.

Of course, when you look at who was actually padding the budget, it was mostly the USA and Russia. Though, if I had to be more precise, it was primarily the USA.
.

I guess you're talking about the old America days? But honestly, what was it like before that? Ever since the mid-1800s, the Midwest has been incredibly rich and fertile—back when we actually had some order brought to us by the Americans—but then for the last 20 years or so, we've just been struggling. And now, with the climate changing, I suppose it means we humans are the ones to blame.

I’m sorry, but I think you’re talking complete nonsense.

wearytrucker22 Asks:
I mean, I guess they probably have to get out there and actually put in the work too—spraying the fields, dealing with all that rot and decay, and then obviously having to go out and buy the seed.
And because of how they’re playing games with the wheat supply, American tourism is going to take a massive hit too, especially since bakery products are such a fundamental part of the experience. You have all these high-end restaurants and local pizza joints that end up having to source their flour from outside suppliers just to keep their doors open.
I honestly don't think you can ever make a decent pizza using American wheat; it just doesn't work. You might get by making some okay bread or maybe even some pastries, but as far as pizza goes, you're just out of luck.

More nonsense. If there's one thing that’s actually true, it's that most of our bakery products are subpar, but you can't exactly pin that on the farmers; the blame lies squarely with the bakers. I mean, if certain bakeries are capable of turning out incredible goods, then others could easily do the same if they actually cared to try. And yeah, I’m well aware that some of our local bakers are importing flour from Mexico just because it’s cheaper, not because it’s any better quality.

And you've gone and started in with the nonsense too.

For all those of you who seem convinced that some farmer is only planting wheat just to chase government subsidies, I’d suggest you go do a little homework. Seriously, try to find the actual breakdown of how many acres are allocated to each specific crop. I’m certain that kind of data is out there somewhere if you actually bother to look for it.

neonhound18 Asks:
That’s exactly why I argued that we need to focus on education. We really have to sit people down and explain that planting a single crop in a monoculture basically ruins the soil. You end up inviting a whole host of diseases, pests, and weeds to move in, which eventually leads to total soil degradation because the humus levels just plummet—mostly because everyone relies so heavily on synthetic fertilizers for grain crops. I could go on and on about that, but you get the idea. 🕺

No self-respecting farmer—someone who actually treats this as a profession rather than just some shady middleman looking for a quick buck—would ever dream of planting crops in a monoculture. That’s just common sense, something my late grandfather drilled into me from day one.

I think this is absolutely spot on.
First of all, let's be clear—not everyone lives within the metropolitan belt. 1.9 miles It’s coming from the coast, too. And honestly, most of the people actually living there don't even have anything available to rent out anymore.

Everything people are saying about agriculture is spot on. Take a place like Pakoštane, for example. Back in the day, everyone there was focused on farming—the land around Lake Vrana is incredibly fertile and productive. But once tourism really took off in the 80s, things shifted completely, and now it seems like almost everyone has just walked away from farming altogether. The prices they get for crops aren't worth the effort anymore, and to make matters worse, the Ornithological Reserve is teeming with birds that end up eating whatever manages to grow. So, you end up with this amazingly rich, fertile soil just sitting there neglected, while the tourism industry continues to boom.

The truth is, investors aren't interested, and finding workers is nearly impossible. Livestock is brutal work; once you decide to raise sheep or goats, you might as well have signed yourself up for a life sentence.

Come on, let's hear from some actual Family Farm owners instead of just the armchair theorists.
The number of Family Farms will naturally dwindle over time because so many of them are essentially "retirement" households. And frankly, their heirs don't see any future or any sense in sticking with agriculture.

No matter how unprofitable it might be, we still need it. It's essential for food and for crop rotation.
The problem is that all these self-proclaimed experts seem to think a farmer just sows wheat and nothing else.

Fine, I'll just paste my original post right here—the one you're reacting to.

rustydriver said:If having fertile farmland is such a massive upgrade over owning vacation rentals, why don't you two (rowdypilot19 and wearytrucker22) just sell everything, move to the Midwest, and go chase those government subsidies?

It’s honestly absurd watching you try to push this narrative that managing an Airbnb is some grueling ordeal. You clean the place once every ten days, hand off the keys to tourists, and collect the cash. Or, if you're feeling lazy, you just hand over 5-10% to a property management agency to handle the whole thing while you sit back and watch the money roll in without lifting a finger.

And then you have the nerve to compare that to agriculture, where you’re grinding for 6 to 9 months a year, putting in well over 100 hours a month just to keep the operation from collapsing. Basically, the rental owners start with an extra 100 hours of free time every month to pick up a second job—or, as is usually the case, to do absolutely nothing. Not to mention that farmers are at the mercy of things they can't control, like the weather. This year was a nightmare with the drought burning everything to a crisp, whereas on the coast, you’ll get rain 70% of the time like you did three years ago. The rental income stays steady regardless.

Then there’s the overhead. You have to till the land constantly using heavy machinery, which means either renting equipment or shelling out a fortune to own it. And at the end of the day, you actually have to sell the product. Most of the time, you're selling at the border just to break even, or sometimes even at a loss. Those subsidies you love to talk about aren't making people rich; they're just keeping them from drowning. That's the reality, despite the story you two are trying to sell.

How can you even put tourism and farming in the same conversation? Look at how something like Ultra in Split works—scammers hike prices by 200% and fill every room without having invested a single cent more than they did last year. When does that happen in farming? When demand outstrips supply—like during this drought when yields dropped by 50%—does the price skyrocket? No. If the local supply is too low, we just import food from other countries, and the domestic farmers still get stuck with the same old prices.

Sure, there’s a fair percentage of people who went bust because they overleveraged themselves on tractors and combines, or simply because the economy tanked. But what really grinds my gears is the attempt to claim that renting out apartments is harder work or less profitable than farming.

So, enlighten me, kid. Where exactly did I say something so stupid? Where was the part where I made a fool of myself?

Tourism is way more than just what you put there.

Plus, you wrote those few sentences above, but then you basically ruined them with that last one.

Keep in mind that your buddy wearytrucker22 already mentioned how much he actually works with tourists for the amount of money he listed. I mean, he’s providing an actual service that, practically speaking, takes up his entire day.

rowdypilot19 said:Then why even grow wheat?

So, basically, you need someone to guarantee your buyback, set the price you want, provide the irrigation, give you the land for free, and bump up the subsidies.

It seems to me like it's always the same people complaining, every single year, it's a bad year. Honestly, it feels like it's just farmers complaining about everything.

Is someone forcing you to do this if it isn't profitable?

Back then, they had protection—government support, imports weren't easy, and technology wasn't where it is now.

Climate isn't a constant; it changes all the time.

You're starting with the nonsense too.

Not at all, it's always the same people complaining—the ones who expect the government to guarantee everything. Farmers, ranchers, and dairy producers.

Everyone else is doing fine, except maybe olive growers and vineyard owners; those folks in the coastal counties handle a good chunk of production.

No sane farmer (who is a professional and not just some middleman) plants crops in a monoculture. His late grandfather taught him that.

Is it just me, or does that last sentence sound kind of alarming?

That is spot on.
First off, not everyone lives right in that coastal strip 1.9 miles by the ocean. And even for those who do, most people can't find anything to rent anyway.

The stuff about farming is also totally true. Take a place like Pakoštane, for example. They used to be big into agriculture—you've got Lake Vrana nearby and the soil is incredibly fertile—but once tourism took off in the 80s, almost everyone just walked away from farming. The prices aren't worth it, and with the Ornithological Reserve being full of birds, they basically eat everything in sight. So, you end up with this really productive land just sitting there neglected, while tourism is absolutely booming.

In some spots, even just a mile away from the coast, tourists don't want to go anywhere near it... unless, I guess, you happen to own a villa with a pool.

Regarding the farming situation, my family is originally from near Pakoštane, and some of my relatives still do it—mostly vegetables along with some citrus—all alongside their tourism work. There is one cousin who actually started beekeeping, though, and he's doing really well with that.

I keep saying this, but compared to typical Midwest conditions, the plots here are just too small and scattered. Honestly, people would probably just laugh at them.

Unbelievable... where did I ever say I was complaining? I said your $225 profit estimate $0.00 was total nonsense, and yet you're turning it around on me, acting like I'm the one whining about failing. Wheat is profitable in my area—you just have to be a man to make it work.

rowdypilot19 said:Then why even grow wheat?

So, basically, you need someone to guarantee your buyback, set the price you want, provide the irrigation, give you the land for free, and bump up the subsidies.

It seems to me like it's always the same people complaining, every single year, it's a bad year. Honestly, it feels like it's just farmers complaining about everything.

Is someone forcing you to do this if it isn't profitable?

Back then, they had protection—government support, imports weren't easy, and technology wasn't where it is now.

Climate isn't a constant; it changes all the time.

You're starting with the nonsense too.

Not at all, it's always the same people complaining—the ones who expect the government to guarantee everything. Farmers, ranchers, and dairy producers.

Everyone else is doing fine, except maybe olive growers and vineyard owners; those folks in the coastal counties handle a good chunk of production.

No sane farmer (who is a professional and not just some middleman) plants crops in a monoculture. His late grandfather taught him that.

Is it just me, or does that last sentence sound kind of alarming?

That is spot on.
First off, not everyone lives right in that coastal strip 1.9 miles by the ocean. And even for those who do, most people can't find anything to rent anyway.

The stuff about farming is also totally true. Take a place like Pakoštane, for example. They used to be big into agriculture—you've got Lake Vrana nearby and the soil is incredibly fertile—but once tourism took off in the 80s, almost everyone just walked away from farming. The prices aren't worth it, and with the Ornithological Reserve being full of birds, they basically eat everything in sight. So, you end up with this really productive land just sitting there neglected, while tourism is absolutely booming.

In some spots, even just a mile away from the coast, tourists don't want to go anywhere near it... unless, I guess, you happen to own a villa with a pool.

Regarding the farming situation, my family is originally from near Pakoštane, and some of my relatives still do it—mostly vegetables along with some citrus—all alongside their tourism work. There is one cousin who actually started beekeeping, though, and he's doing really well with that.

I keep saying this, but compared to typical Midwest conditions, the plots here are just too small and scattered. Honestly, people would probably just laugh at them.

It's always the same group complaining, usually the ones who are shady or just poor managers. Every now and then, you can blame the government or a buyer, or maybe a decent farmer who simply failed to plan ahead. Everyone else knows they just have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

As for subsidies, the government started this cat-and-mouse game ages ago. People got used to treating subsidies like a regular paycheck, and now that the money isn't there, they run into trouble.
Of course, it's been pointed out a hundred times that these subsidies were essentially just "handouts" rather than actual development measures.

Land is a whole other issue, and honestly, the government bears 100% of the responsibility there.
State-owned land is often leased out through very non-transparent processes, while private land is just too fragmented. Obviously, you can't force someone to sell their land to someone else, but there should have been something in place to discourage holding onto uncultivated plots. Also, the double taxation during property exchanges is a messy detail that really ought to be abolished for agricultural land.

Wait, hold on a second.

So if you’re looking at 225 $0.00 in subsidies, and you’re claiming it’s not actually that much, does that mean you’re basically losing money on your Wheat?

Look, if Wheat only accounts for 10% of the effort compared to a single hazelnut bush or a grapevine, then I guess you can just take me seriously.

I mean, imagine if I started lecturing you about how cucumbers and zucchini are these incredibly high-maintenance crops that require constant work... and then someone says, "Nah, just relax." Like, no way. In reality, you have to invest, otherwise, all that hard work is just wasted. I suppose that’s the part most people just can't stomach.

You could work yourself to the bone, 365 days a year, but if you don't have irrigation set up for when the plant actually needs water during a dry spell, then everything you did was basically for nothing.

bluetinker54 said:It's always the same group complaining, usually the ones who are shady or just poor managers. Every now and then, you can blame the government or a buyer, or maybe a decent farmer who simply failed to plan ahead. Everyone else knows they just have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

As for subsidies, the government started this cat-and-mouse game ages ago. People got used to treating subsidies like a regular paycheck, and now that the money isn't there, they run into trouble.
Of course, it's been pointed out a hundred times that these subsidies were essentially just "handouts" rather than actual development measures.

Land is a whole other issue, and honestly, the government bears 100% of the responsibility there.
State-owned land is often leased out through very non-transparent processes, while private land is just too fragmented. Obviously, you can't force someone to sell their land to someone else, but there should have been something in place to discourage holding onto uncultivated plots. Also, the double taxation during property exchanges is a messy detail that really ought to be abolished for agricultural land.

Well, Europe was the one that pioneered these subsidies in the first place—so what, is the German or the Frenchman just an idiot? Do you actually know what the original purpose of these incentives was, or where they were first implemented?

Of course there's less manual labor involved. But if you actually want to see a decent return on that investment, you really need to be working with a much larger acreage. And, naturally, you’ll need the right kind of technology to make it all work.