Does astral projection prove mind-body dualism?

In keeping with our good old tradition, let’s dive into a bit of a digression within a digression.
It’s easy to get lost in a topic as massive as this—trying to pin down what actually matters, why it carries weight, and where that essence is hiding in the first place. It's a lot to unpack.
Here I’ve been thinking quite a bit about our recent discussions regarding the nature of reality and whether we are truly "awake" or just drifting through a carefully constructed dream. It’s a heavy topic, I know, but one that keeps coming back to me. I was reading some older thoughts from hiddenpuma75, and it really got my gears turning. There is this persistent idea that we are all essentially performing a cosmic dance without knowing the music. It’s a bit humbling, isn't it? To think that everything we perceive—the streets of Chicago, the skyline of New York, even the very ground beneath our feet—might just be a projection of a much deeper, more complex consciousness. I sometimes feel like Sisyphus, pushing the boulder of understanding up a hill, only to have it roll right back down the moment I think I've grasped a fundamental truth. It’s frustrating, sure, but there’s a certain beauty in the struggle itself. If we aren't meant to solve the puzzle entirely, then perhaps the point is simply to enjoy the process of trying. I'd love to hear what the rest of you think. Are we players in a grand simulation, or is there something more organic, more "real," happening behind the curtain? Don't be shy—I promise my theories aren't *too* out there... usually.
It looks like we’ve finally arrived at the heart of the matter: consciousness.

That’s why I’ve decided to start a dedicated thread—let’s call it a workspace of sorts.

Does astral projection actually prove mind-body dualism?
Well, let's move the conversation over here. 🙂

====

To get us started, I’ll share one of my own posts—one that I like to think was written with a certain level of grace, backed by solid facts, and infused with a genuinely good sense of style.

hiddenpuma75 said:What if neuroscience eventually hits a wall where it's forced to confront truths that simply don't fit its current models? It’s a nagging thought of mine—what happens when the data starts pointing toward realities that the entire field is fundamentally unwilling to acknowledge? There might come a point where the science itself needs to hear things that make everyone uncomfortable, yet right now, it feels like there's a collective reluctance to even listen.

If you gave me the chance to run a simple little experiment on myself—one where the duration depended entirely on my own willpower and interest—I’d be tempted to dive in. Depending on how I felt, it could last five minutes, an hour, a full day, or even an entire lifetime.

Since you’re a scientist and a thinker, I’m sure you’re just as captivated by the ultimate mystery of existence as I am—consciousness. I’m betting you won't mind diving into this one with me.

Alright, let’s get things moving with some links.

3) This is the wiki dedicated to Robert Monroe.

If you haven't spent much time looking into the life and work of Robert Monroe, you’re missing out on one of the most fascinating figures in modern American consciousness studies. He wasn't just some guy interested in the "unexplained"; he was a pioneer who turned subjective experiences into a structured field of study. Most people know him through his books, which dive deep into the mechanics of out-of-body experiences and altered states. What I find most compelling about his journey is how he moved from being a successful, pragmatic businessman to someone who could navigate the most profound reaches of the human psyche. It wasn't just "woo-woo" mysticism for him—he approached it with a certain level of rigor that felt almost scientific, despite how unconventional the subject matter was. He essentially mapped out a territory that most of us are too afraid or too distracted to even look at. His work suggests that our physical reality is just one layer of a much larger, much more complex existence. Whether you believe his theories or view them as pure speculation, there's no denying that he provided a vocabulary for experiences that, until he came along, people struggled to describe without sounding completely lost. It’s worth taking the time to dig into his legacy. Even if you approach it with a healthy dose of skepticism, the sheer depth of his exploration is genuinely impressive.

Here he is over on YouTube. I’ve been sitting here thinking about that video, and I have to admit, it really stirred something up in me. It’s one of those pieces that sticks to your ribs, isn't it? There’s a certain weight to the ideas being presented—a gravity that makes you want to pause, take a breath, and just process everything. I found myself leaning in, trying to wrap my head around the implications of what was being said. It wasn't just information; it felt more like an invitation to look at things from a completely different angle, perhaps even a slightly uncomfortable one. I know I might be overthinking this (classic me, right?), but there’s something profoundly moving about the way the narrative unfolds. It challenges the usual assumptions we carry around like heavy luggage. Instead of just accepting the surface level, the video pushes you to dig a little deeper, to ask the "why" behind the "what." It’s definitely not something you just watch and forget while grabbing a coffee. You have to sit with it. I’m curious to hear what the rest of you think—did it hit you as hard as it hit me, or am I just being overly dramatic today?

5) This is his discovery, distilled down to its absolute essence.

He was a businessman through and through, but in the eyes of the world, he was this strange cocktail of hiddeneagle98 and Apemant. He was that classic type—someone who was incredibly sharp and driven by material reality, yet carried himself with the skeptical, agnostic air of a true intellectual.
I’ve had a few spontaneous astral projections happen in a row over the last several evenings. Essentially, an astral projection is that experience where your spirit—or maybe your soul, or even just your consciousness—detaches from your physical body, whether you intended for it to happen or not.

So, he spent the night wandering—or rather, drifting through the astral plane. 😲 It was like I was hovering somewhere nearby, yet at the exact same moment, I could look straight down and see my own body just lying there, deep in a peaceful sleep. 😲

Of course, he was absolutely floored by it. 😲

Of course, people are going to be skeptical when they hear about things like wands or apemantis in America—it’s only natural. So, I have to ask: what’s your gut reaction while you're reading this? Does it all sound like pure science fiction or just complete nonsense to you? And honestly, have you ever even heard of anything like this before?

He’s essentially the quintessential skeptical entrepreneur—someone who just couldn't ignore his own firsthand experiences. He ended up founding his own institute, which has since evolved over the years into a legitimate research center dedicated to studying astral projection phenomena.

9) She actually touched on that recently—both her and Quinn—but honestly, I doubt anyone else even noticed. It probably just went right over everyone's heads, myself included, given how much I tend to miss the subtle stuff.

Look, at the end of the day, his work—and the research conducted by his colleagues—serves as rock-solid, scientifically documented proof. It completely dismantles the hypothesis that a mere two pounds of meat (the brain) is solely responsible for the phenomenon we call consciousness. Your theory just doesn't hold up against the data.

Of course, the brain serves as that essential interface—the bridge connecting our visible reality to the invisible dimensions of existence.
So, I’d say your materialistic take is actually partially correct.

The idea that the brain is solely responsible for everything—that this two-pound mass of biological tissue acts as the sole engine producing what we call consciousness—is a flawed hypothesis. It just doesn't hold up when you look at how convincingly and verifiably Robert Monroe demonstrates otherwise.

Louis claims that during his astral projection experiences, he actually made contact with certain "entities" that helped clarify some things for him.

12) Even Wand and Apemant weigh in, claiming they don't buy it and dismissing the whole thing as pure fantasy.

13) And honestly, fair enough—even Robert Monroe didn't claim to be a true believer himself.

14) He actually designed those isolated isolation tanks (the equipment) specifically to test what happens when two people undergo an astral projection at the same time.
He would monitor whether they were truly in an astral state and then interview them separately to see if they encountered the exact same things.

15) If two people, completely independent of one another, encounter the same beings and phenomena, then there has to be a reality (a dimension or a field) that exists entirely INDEPENDENTLY of our 3D world.
That’s how Robert Monroe managed to satisfy the skepticism of folks like Kren and Apemant within his own research.

16) There was actually a scientist working at the institute (a NASA physicist) who held a view very similar to yours.

You can check out his video right here:

And he wrote this absolutely fascinating 824-page book 😲 about his work at the Monroe Institute—which, naturally, I happen to own.🙂

https://www.amazon.com/My-Big-TOE-Co.../dp/0972509461

===

At any rate, astral projection provides compelling, verifiable evidence that our body and brain act like a car, where the driver is both "outside" (non-local, or as Sheldrake calls it, the morphogenetic field) and "inside" the brain (local).😉

Your argument is the exact opposite: you're saying the car (the brain/body) drives itself—that it's both the vehicle and the driver, we just haven't figured out the mechanics yet.

You're suggesting that once the car breaks down (the body dies), everything simply stops because there is no driver left.

But the work from Robert Monroe and his institute suggests that when the car breaks down, the car stops and gets scrapped, but the driver "unplugs" and moves into a different car to start driving all over again.😉

==
So, it's really up to you how you want to look at it.
You can spend five minutes pondering this while you read, or you can spend a day, or even your whole life on it.

Your choice.

👋

For anyone from the future stumbling upon this thread, I'll just say this topic is linked to the discussion on

why certain things matter, and you can find it here:

And so, our posts regarding astral projection begin on this day, May 18, 2017.

swifttiger75 said:Here’s my take on it...

Spirit is a constant, all-encompassing principle present in everything. In a person, it can be manifested and brought to life through inspiration—whereas in a rock, for instance, it just exists.

Roughly speaking, spirit doesn't inhabit the body; rather, the body inhabits the spirit.

I'll try to clarify what was quoted here.

My view is that spirit inhabits the country (I'll stick to the country for now) independently of humans, but only a human can animate and express it through inspiration—regardless of the type of inspiration. As for the idea that the body inhabits the spirit rather than vice versa, I point to the act of breathing: first indirectly, in the mother's womb, and then directly, through that first independent breath and exhale during birth.

Basically, a human animates a portion of the spirit that belongs to them through their physical presence (volume). If we treat our skin as the boundary between internal and external, I'll be bold enough to claim both sides are equally immeasurable—since they both ultimately lead back to spirit as such. In either direction, mathematical exactness quickly becomes irrelevant; in those higher realms, math is merely descriptive.

Because of this, I don't see astral projection as a process of separation, but as a process of connection—where our body (volume) stops being aware of its own walls and boundaries, merging with the outside through the process of breathing.

Mind you, I don't actually believe in astral projection myself—I haven't felt "inspired" to look deeper into it—but I wanted to build on what you asked using what I consider essential.

hiddenpuma75 said:In keeping with our good old tradition, let’s dive into a bit of a digression within a digression.
It’s easy to get lost in a topic as massive as this—trying to pin down what actually matters, why it carries weight, and where that essence is hiding in the first place. It's a lot to unpack.
Here I’ve been thinking quite a bit about our recent discussions regarding the nature of reality and whether we are truly "awake" or just drifting through a carefully constructed dream. It’s a heavy topic, I know, but one that keeps coming back to me. I was reading some older thoughts from hiddenpuma75, and it really got my gears turning. There is this persistent idea that we are all essentially performing a cosmic dance without knowing the music. It’s a bit humbling, isn't it? To think that everything we perceive—the streets of Chicago, the skyline of New York, even the very ground beneath our feet—might just be a projection of a much deeper, more complex consciousness. I sometimes feel like Sisyphus, pushing the boulder of understanding up a hill, only to have it roll right back down the moment I think I've grasped a fundamental truth. It’s frustrating, sure, but there’s a certain beauty in the struggle itself. If we aren't meant to solve the puzzle entirely, then perhaps the point is simply to enjoy the process of trying. I'd love to hear what the rest of you think. Are we players in a grand simulation, or is there something more organic, more "real," happening behind the curtain? Don't be shy—I promise my theories aren't *too* out there... usually.
It looks like we’ve finally arrived at the heart of the matter: consciousness.

That’s why I’ve decided to start a dedicated thread—let’s call it a workspace of sorts.

Does astral projection actually prove mind-body dualism?
Well, let's move the conversation over here. 🙂

====

To get us started, I’ll share one of my own posts—one that I like to think was written with a certain level of grace, backed by solid facts, and infused with a genuinely good sense of style.

For anyone from the future stumbling upon this thread, I'll just say this topic is linked to the discussion on

why certain things matter, and you can find it here:

And so, our posts regarding astral projection begin on this day, May 18, 2017.

Is "astral projection" just some fancy, esoteric-occult way of putting it, or is it actually something else? Like, is it just a rebranding of out-of-body experiences, or does it carry more weight than that?
The term you're looking for is "out-of-body experience." That’s actually the specific phrase that Robert Monroe—the guy you keep quoting, by the way—preferred to use. He was basically the one who popularized it and made it mainstream.

Quinn:

To kick things off, I’m going to lay out my opening argument—a post that’s been meticulously crafted, backed by hard facts, and written with a certain level of refined elegance that you just don't see much anymore.

Let’s see just how much of that stuff you actually meant.

Quinn:

1) Because you’re a scientist, man. That's just how it works. I’ve been sitting here spiraling, thinking about the absolute biggest mystery in existence—you know, the whole consciousness thing. It’s the kind of rabbit hole that makes you want to throw your phone across the room because there are just no easy answers. Honestly, if you're even remotely interested in this stuff like I am, you'll probably be down this path with me. You'll get on board eventually.

I can't speak for Wanda, but here's one from him. I don't even know where to start with this one. Honestly, I’ve been sitting here staring at my screen for ten minutes just trying to process the absolute nonsense being peddled lately. It’s like nobody actually thinks before they hit "post" anymore. You see these threads popping up, people just shouting into the void without a shred of logic, and I find myself getting worked up every single time. It reminds me of this one guy I used to work with back in Chicago—total loose cannon. He’d walk into meetings, drop some half-baked theory that sounded vaguely smart if you were sleep-deprived, and then act like he was the smartest guy in the room when everyone else just stared at him in confusion. That’s exactly what’s happening here. People are just throwing out assertions like they're gospel truths, ignoring any actual evidence to the contrary. And don't even get me started on the way certain people try to spin things to fit their own little narratives. It’s exhausting. You try to have a measured, deliberate conversation, and suddenly you're being attacked or dismissed because you didn't jump through all their ideological hoops. It's frustrating, man. I'm just here trying to make sense of things, not participate in a circus. We need more substance and way less ego. Period. Who exactly is calling BS on that bolded part of yours?

Quinn:

So, I’ve been having these spontaneous astral projections a few nights in a row now. It’s wild. If you aren't familiar with the concept, astral projection is basically that moment where your spirit—or maybe it's your soul, or just pure consciousness, who knows really—detaches from your physical body, whether you intended for it to happen or not. It just happens.

Look, it’s true he had those kinds of experiences, but let's be real—he didn't exactly break new ground there. And you want to know why he leaned so hard into the term OBE? There's a reason modern scientists are obsessed with that specific phrasing, too. It’s because it’s neutral. Unlike the definition you're pushing, the term doesn't try to force a specific agenda or bias onto the whole thing. interpretationLook, they’re just saying it's an "experience" and that people have these subjective perceptions. But when you start throwing around terms like "astral projection," you're making a massive leap. You're essentially presupposing that the astral plane actually exists and that there's such a thing as an astral body. That leads us straight into the trap of dualism—or even worse, pluralism, if you're one of those folks who thinks humans are made up of multiple different bodies beyond just our physical one. It's a slippery slope, honestly.

Quinn:

Of course people in the States aren't going to buy into this stuff—whether we're talking about the Wandos or the Apemantis, nobody here is buying that line. So, look, I need you to level with me right now. While you're sitting there reading this, what’s actually going through your head? Does this whole thing strike you as total sci-fi nonsense, just a bunch of meaningless noise? And honestly, have you ever even heard a single word about any of this before?

Look, you can actually trust someone when they’re describing an experience to the best of their ability from memory—you just can't buy into their literal interpretation of what happened. Take this guy, for example. He's convinced his mind literally detached from his body and started floating around the room. I get that he's being sincere about what he felt, but honestly? That part is where things get a little out there. You listen to the core of the story, but you don't have to swallow the physics of it.

Quinn:

9) She actually touched on that recently—both her and Nea—but honestly? I doubt anyone even noticed. Or maybe they did, and I’m just the only one clueless enough to have missed it. Typical me, right?

Look, I saw it myself.

Quinn:

Look, let’s get one thing straight right out of the gate: the whole idea that the brain—just two pounds of meat sitting in your skull—is solely responsible for cranking out "consciousness" like some kind of biological factory? It’s a total joke. Honestly, calling that a scientific hypothesis is being way too generous; it’s just a flat-out wrong assumption. I mean, think about it. We’re talking about physical matter, right? Just cells and electrical impulses. You’re telling me all that gray matter just decides to squeeze out this profound, existential experience we call awareness? It doesn't add up. It feels like we're trying to force a square peg into a round hole just because it makes the math easier for certain academics. I’ve spent way too many late nights staring at the ceiling wondering why we cling to such reductionist nonsense when the reality of being alive feels so much bigger than just chemistry. It's frustrating, honestly. We're looking for deep truths and we're settling for "it's just brain juice." Give me a break. So, how exactly does Monroe actually prove his stuff in a way that's verifiable and, you know, actually convincing?

Where and how?

Quinn:

Louis claims he actually ran into some "entities" while out on an astral projection trip, and apparently, they gave him the lowdown on a few things. Then the Wand starts up again, and Apemant is out there claiming he doesn't buy any of it—saying the whole thing is just some massive fantasy.

So, you’ve got two ways to look at this whole thing. On one hand, you could argue it's just pure fantasy—some kind of wild, internally generated trip happening inside your own head. That’s one interpretation right there. But then, on the flip side, you have the idea that the soul is actually detaching from the physical body, leaving the meat suit behind for a moment. Honestly, though, regardless of which camp you fall into, everyone seems to agree on one fundamental truth: once you're in the middle of an out-of-body experience, it feels subjectively real. It doesn't matter if it's all in your mind or a literal spiritual departure; the reality of the experience itself is undeniable.

Quinn:

15) Look, think about it. If two people—completely independent of one another, mind you—stumble upon the exact same entities and weird phenomena, then there’s no way that’s just a coincidence. It’s not some glitch in our local perception. If we're both seeing the same thing, it means there has to be an actual world—a dimension, a field, whatever you want to call it—that exists entirely on its own, completely independent of our little 3D reality. It’s like finding the same secret door in two different houses; it proves the hallway actually exists outside of them.

So, here's the thing—people who get stuck in sleep paralysis during the night often report seeing all sorts of "entities," like those creepy black shadows or figures standing in the corner of the room. If a bunch of different people are seeing the exact same phenomena, does that actually mean these things are objectively real? Or are we just all tripping on the same neurological glitch?

It’s honestly kind of wild to me how the scientists currently digging into this whole phenomenon haven't made the jump over to parapsychology yet. Like, you look at the data they're pulling, and it's right there staring them in the face, but they just keep sticking to those rigid, old-school methods. It feels like they're intentionally ignoring the obvious connection just to stay within their comfortable little bubbles. 🤣

Quinn:

So, I was thinking about this earlier—there was this one physicist over at NASA who used to work at the institute, and honestly, his take on all this was pretty much identical to yours. He saw things exactly the same way.

A NASA physicist? Wow. Seriously, you really felt the need to drop that in there? I mean, was that supposed to be some kind of "appeal to authority" move to win the argument? Because, honestly, it’s a bit much.

Quinn:

You can find his video right here. I can't access external links like YouTube videos directly, so I can't see what you're watching. If you want me to dive into it, just give me a rundown of what happened in the video—the main points, the vibe, or whatever specifically caught your eye. Once you drop the details here, I'll get to work tearing it apart or giving you my two cents. I just stumbled upon this absolutely massive book—we're talking 824 pages of pure madness. It’s honestly fascinating, though I don't know if I have the stamina to get through the whole thing without my brain melting. Still, there's something about a tome that heavy that just pulls you in. 😲 Regarding his work over at the Monroe Institute—which I have, obviously—it's a whole different story. 🙂 So, I finally picked up a copy of *My Big TOE* on Amazon. Honestly, looking at this thing, I’m not even sure if I should be reading it or if I need to go lie down in a dark room for a few hours. It’s one of those books that feels like it was written by someone who either discovered the secrets of the universe or just had way too much espresso while staring at a chalkboard. I’ve been seeing people talk about this concept online for a while now, and part of me wanted to just ignore it—you know, stay blissfully ignorant and keep scrolling through memes—but curiosity eventually got the better of me. There’s something about these deep-dive, "everything you thought you knew is wrong" type of books that just pulls you in, even if you know you're probably going to end up with a massive headache by chapter three. It’s definitely not your standard, breezy beach read. If you're looking for something light to read while sipping a latte at Starbucks, this isn't it. This is more like trying to solve a Rubik's Cube while riding a roller coaster. But hey, maybe that's exactly what we need right now. Everything feels so chaotic lately, so why not dive into some existential madness to pass the time? We'll see if it actually changes my perspective or if I'm just wasting my Sunday afternoon. Stay tuned, I guess.

Let’s be real: you aren't exactly going to find "hard, cold, scientific facts" being served up on YouTube or tucked away in mainstream books. It just doesn't work that way.

Quinn:

So, I was reading through some of Robert Monroe’s stuff again—you know how it goes, once you start down that rabbit hole, you're basically stuck there for hours—and he makes this wild point about what happens when things go south. He says if your car breaks down, it doesn't just stall out on the side of the highway; it completely dies. Like, total engine failure, junked. And then he gets even more intense, saying that while the machine is essentially being eaten away by "worms" or whatever cosmic decay he's talking about, the driver? Well, the driver just... drifts off. They "flutter" away from the wreckage. It’s a heavy concept, honestly. Makes me think about that time my old Ford died outside of Phoenix in the middle of July; I felt like my soul was trying to exit my body right then and there just to escape the heat. But yeah, Monroe's whole vibe is that the physical vessel can be totally destroyed while the essence just moves on to the next thing. So, I hop into a different car, and just like that, we’re back on the road again. Round two. Let's go.😉

So what, they're out here trying to prove dualism and reincarnation now too?

🤣

Look, I’ve personally experienced an out-of-body trip using ketamine, and let me tell you, everything becomes crystal clear. It's widely recognized that ketamine facilitates these out-of-body experiences, but it goes way beyond that—it can actually trigger this profound sensation of a divine presence. I’m speaking from firsthand experience as an atheist, and I have plenty of friends who can back me up on that too.

The real magic happens when you combine hallucinogens with ketamine. When you spice up a psychedelic trip with an out-of-body exit, things get wild. You don't just leave your body; you end up having this bizarre half-merger with random objects, like a desk or a chair. You genuinely feel like you're half-human and half-furniture, where your hand and head are poking out of a tabletop while the rest of your torso is just... part of the wood.

Quinn:

Sub-anaesthetic doses of ketamine may induce feelings of euphoria, dreamy detachment, deep mystical insights, loss of normal time sense, "floating" weightlessly away from one's body-image, and an altered phenomenology of thought. Some users report merging with inanimate objects, vivid "near-death" experiences, extraterrestrial beings and meeting God - or Satan. By common consent, experience of the "K-hole" cannot adequately be captured in words. Ketamine-inspired insights are also hard to integrate into the rest of one's life - not least because the drug induces significant amnesia.

By the way, ketamine was originally used as an anesthetic, but it fell out of favor for human use specifically because of the effects described above. From a health standpoint, it's safe; it metabolizes and clears your system without a hitch, so you feel like a new person within an hour. It’s still widely used in veterinary medicine today.

If you haven't personally navigated through all the stuff I'm talking about, then this whole discussion is pretty much useless to you; you're just shouting into the void.

I know we aren't supposed to be promoting drugs on this forum, but let's be real—this is an anesthetic (let's pretend we're just talking about medical tools here), and it has virtually zero addictive potential. It’s simply a central anesthetic... specifically, it works via central anesthesia by blocking NMDA receptors, which is exactly what causes that "astral projection" to detach from the physical shell. Your brain constantly maintains a projection of yourself to manage motor functions and planning; once that center loses its sensory input—the feeling of your body, muscles, or skin—that projection starts drifting. Initially, the projection shifts upward and backward (kind of like how it feels when you open a "third eye" and look at it!), and then it can drift away entirely. It seems to be the bodily sensation that keeps the projection anchored low, near the floor... once that sensation is gone, the only thing holding the projection in place is vision. The brain assumes the body is tethered to the eyes, using that to anchor the projection and construct a perception of reality, though it doesn't result in the exact same positioning you get when you have tactile feedback. Literally, it feels like your perspective has shifted a few inches upward and backward. I honestly believe you can achieve this same state through deep meditation, which is probably why ancient sages claimed they could levitate or spoke about the third eye. It's a surreal situation because you still technically have control over your body, yet you have zero sensory feedback. You look down at your hands and they seem further away than usual, simply because you don't *feel* them as yours, so your perception automatically adjusts to make them look distant. From a psychonautical perspective, it's absolutely fascinating.

...so you're suggesting this is nothing more than a hallucination...

Is there actually a coherent—meaning logical, substantive, and worthy of serious contemplation—argument to be made that experiences of this nature represent something "more" than just a simple hallucination?

feralranger said:...so you're suggesting this is nothing more than a hallucination...

Is there actually a coherent—meaning logical, substantive, and worthy of serious contemplation—argument to be made that experiences of this nature represent something "more" than just a simple hallucination?

(I'm in a huge rush, so I'll keep this brief and a bit surface-level.)

Yes.
I tried explaining this in my previous post, but you didn't quite catch my drift and are still stuck on your own perspective.
The proof that these aren't hallucinations was actually developed by Monroe.
If two people encounter the exact same phenomenon—one that is consistently new every single time—completely independent of one another,
and they both provide detailed descriptions of the "entities" they met,
then clearly, we aren't talking about hallucinations.
It’s not like they just smoked some weed and started feeling good.

Monroe actually measured this.
He looked at: a) whether they both entered the state,
b) if he interviewed them separately to see what they encountered,
c) and if they independently reported meeting someone like Louis,
who then told them that consciousness possesses seven distinct abilities, then obviously, acting like a detective, you have to draw a conclusion.

d) Now, if one person meets Louis and the other meets Hegel, who keeps repeating the thesis + antithesis = synthesis formula, then we can't be certain.

But if they both describe the exact same encounter to a detective like Sisyphus, then Sisyphus has to conclude:

a) either they are both incredibly convincing liars, in which case you'd have to figure out their motive,
b) or there really is an entity named Louis that they encountered, who repeatedly claims consciousness has seven abilities, and this isn't just some hallucination triggered by weed or LSD...

If a hallucination starts talking back to you and communicating, it isn't a hallucination anymore.

For instance, I have a hallucination right now, and I'm communicating with an entity named Sisyphus.

IS SISYPHUS REAL OR IS HE A HALLUCINATION?🤔 😛

HOW DO I PROVE THIS ISN'T A DREAM AND THAT SISYPHUS IS ACTUALLY REAL?
What kind of arguments would Sisyphus, the Wandas, and everyone in every country actually accept?

Besides,
WHAT EVEN IS REALITY, SISYPHUS?
WHAT IS YOUR PROOF?
And why do people write petitions instead of "petitions" for miracles?

🤔

You actually brought up the possibility of a.

People lie quite frequently, don't they? The motivation can range from a simple craving for attention to more calculated endeavors, such as promoting a new book or, frankly, just chasing a paycheck...

Secondly, a couple of strangers—whose commitment to the truth remains entirely unverified and therefore highly questionable in my estimation—shared something truly extraordinary. Naturally, I remain skeptical.

What hiddeneagle98 wrote strikes me as somewhat more plausible and credible... he was recounting his own personal experience, and while our acquaintance is limited strictly to this forum, I would venture to say he possesses a certain integrity; I simply see no ulterior motive for him to be spinning some elaborate yarn...

In my view, I believe you are being sincere, or rather, that you genuinely believe what you are writing... but then again, that is merely a matter of belief...

Basically, all these threads hiddenpuma75 keeps starting just boil down to that whole "life after death" talk.

fadedbison said:Basically, all these threads hiddenpuma75 keeps starting just boil down to that whole "life after death" talk.

If I actually had that kind of certainty myself, I’d probably be out there trying to convince the whole world about it too. 😬

hiddeneagle98 said:If I actually had that kind of certainty myself, I’d probably be out there trying to convince the whole world about it too. 😬

Honestly, it feels more like insecurity looking for backup—like they need others to "have" to believe just to feel validated. Real faith doesn't need an audience. It either laughs at skeptics, pities them, or treats them like kids. It doesn't need to drag anyone else down to feel steady. If you truly believe—or better yet, if you *know*—why do you even care what the non-believers think? That's the whole point of being a missionary, right? Just trying to convince yourself. Same goes for those "missionary atheists." They're just trying to prove to themselves that what they were taught isn't true, trying to shake off the baggage their "bad parents" or society dumped on them. If that happened when they were toddlers, they'll never get over it, so they end up swinging to the opposite extreme, attacking "beings" they don't even believe exist in the first place.

Human psychology is wild. 🤣